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In Heresy materials it’s repeatedly noted that the Emperor’s Thunder Warriors felt human to those who interacted with them. Larger than life, but human nonetheless, with passions and emotions and feelings. Astartes never did, and even Valdor (himself an example of the emperor’s skill at making inhuman things) is freaked out by them. Over the course of the Crusade they got more human, but still there’s something ethereal and otherworldly about them.
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May 26, 2021 03:16
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The path of saying "by the time they're modified you can't really tell the difference between genders" is precisely what GW did with House Goliath for Necromunda. It was a bit of speculation among fans, but House of Chains made it canon that yeah, some Goliaths are women, and at least some of the Natborn and Unborn even maintain the ability to have kids, but they're so heavily genesmithed and roided out that outwardly they all look stereotypically hypermasculine. Of course, they could do this because that's not their flagship like Space Marines are, it's a niche bit of lore within an already niche piece of the setting, so there was no grog outcry.
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May 26, 2021 08:31
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Vulpes Vulpes posted:That was the direction I was trying to go in, I love how Blanche paints stuff. I was trying for an approximation of his Contrast stuff, but obviously fell pretty short of the mark. Eh, ain't that just the way though? I myself have mountains of assembled but unprimed (and certainly unpainted) little mans, and I haven't painted ANYTHING since 2019 so what da gently caress do I know for "falling short of the mark".
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May 26, 2021 12:53
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:In Heresy materials it’s repeatedly noted that the Emperor’s Thunder Warriors felt human to those who interacted with them. Larger than life, but human nonetheless, with passions and emotions and feelings. Astartes never did, and even Valdor (himself an example of the emperor’s skill at making inhuman things) is freaked out by them. Over the course of the Crusade they got more human, but still there’s something ethereal and otherworldly about them. I wanna see one of these larger than life warriors turn up in a stasis pod or something, sounds like a fun person to have around
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May 26, 2021 14:30
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Cease to Hope posted:This is the kind of thing that proper authors could probably pull off but is going to be a trainwreck in the context of the marketing for a toy line. gently caress proper authors, give Ian Watson lead on this.
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May 26, 2021 15:12
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Squibsy posted:I wanna see one of these larger than life warriors turn up in a stasis pod or something, sounds like a fun person to have around They kind of did. He beat up some Marines and was generally not mentally stable. It was an disappointingly poorly written story. The main takeaway being that the Thunder Warriors were designed to be short term, the Astartes were always going to be used to cull them once Terran Unification was achieved. And the Emperor was probably going to do the same to the Astartes once their conquests were complete.
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May 26, 2021 15:20
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The brilliant part was that once the jokaero had dealt with the Space Marines, they'd just freeze to death in the winter.
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May 26, 2021 15:33
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moths posted:gently caress proper authors, give Ian Watson lead on this. lmao Watson's psychosexual gibberish aside, it's not about the quality of the writing, but the fact that it's a concept that would work better with a single author telling a considered, complete story. Instead, any 40K story is going to be doled out as "lore" and half-remembered interstitial fiction and exposition dumps in game sourcebooks.
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May 26, 2021 15:57
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TK_Nyarlathotep posted:Eh, ain't that just the way though? Oh, don't get me wrong- I'm very pleased with how they came out, I'm well aware that there's no way I'm going to reach the standard of JB.
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May 26, 2021 18:37
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I can understand the temptation to follow the logic of the science fiction in the game to its own conclusions and say that the women space marines just look exactly like the men. The problem with using that approach to 'fix' the female space marine problem is that it still leaves women as essentially invisible, but adds in some questionable declarations about the nature of transgender people into the mix. It's thin cover. It says: "We don't have to change our models. We still are presenting that the ultimate warrior archetype is a male presenting archetype. Superhero = masculine. And, of course, women who undergo the training to become strong enough aren't really women any more. To become a supreme athlete is to de-feminize." These are not progressive messages. IMO the right way to fix it is to directly address it in the lore and in the model range by making female-presenting space marines. That doesn't mean their armor should have huge tit plates or whatever, a female-presenting head option would likely be sufficient. It doesn't mean you have to erase vast parts of previous lore, you can just say "there's always been female space marines but for a long time for terrible paternalistic reasons the imperium intentionally hid that fact, and now it's admitting it and openly recruiting women." Or, fix it by addressing the other elephant in the room, that space marines are actually bad guys. The space fascists could just be sexists too. I'd appreciate a full recognition in the lore and in how the faction is marketed that these aren't heroic people just doing what's necessary. Admit that the fanatical ubermenschen fascists are also male-supremecists whose reasons for rejecting women entirely from their forces (and their lives) are gross. If you explicitly acknowledge this poo poo you'd be also helping to resolve the problem that presenting the space marines as the heroes tacitly endorses the "tough times require harsh measures" justification for brutal militarized oppression that real-world fascists have always leveraged in their rhetoric and propaganda.
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May 26, 2021 18:56
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Leperflesh posted:Or, fix it by addressing the other elephant in the room, that space marines are actually bad guys. The space fascists could just be sexists too. I'd appreciate a full recognition in the lore and in how the faction is marketed that these aren't heroic people just doing what's necessary. Admit that the fanatical ubermenschen fascists are also male-supremecists whose reasons for rejecting women entirely from their forces (and their lives) are gross. If you explicitly acknowledge this poo poo you'd be also helping to resolve the problem that presenting the space marines as the heroes tacitly endorses the "tough times require harsh measures" justification for brutal militarized oppression that real-world fascists have always leveraged in their rhetoric and propaganda. Any acknowledgement along these lines is always going to be pushed to the margins of the "lore" and licensed fiction because heroic overt fascists aren't marketable. Or else GW just straight up embraces marketing toys featuring heroic jackbooted fascists, which is worse I think. The dissonance is better than the alternative.
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May 26, 2021 19:51
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They're currently taking steps towards the second solution. Malcador's unheeded advice to the Emperor about female primarchs, the overall characterization of the Emperor as a patriarchal megalomaniac, and much more common depictions of marines as inhuman monsters. Compared with their portrayal in 2e, marines have been arcing away from marvel superheroes and more towards "roided up bioweapons." Making them less the main characters of the setting would be a step in the right direction for a lot of reasons, tbh.
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May 26, 2021 20:04
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Yeah it's a fine line to walk of course. There's historicals-players who field german WWII armies, and some of them are fine, just people playing a game, and some of them are, obviously not fine. A game company can make german panther and halftrack models without necessarily presenting the faction for their wargame as "the good guys," and while I've ran into the occasional weirdo about it, it's fairly rare for people playing, say, dark eldar or necrons or chaos armies to claim that "these are the good guys actually" so it's not necessarily the case that GW has to do that with the marines. An all-these-factions-are-cool approach that abandons the Ultramarines as the face of the game would be healthier for the game, even if it might give the marketing folks at GW more of a challenge.
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May 26, 2021 20:09
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I don't think they are taking those steps. I think they're doing the same thing they've been doing for more than a decade at this point: sell one story with heroic supersoldiers saving humanity from the xeno scum, and a second story where characters point out that the first story is fascist. They just sell these stories to different audiences.
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May 26, 2021 20:09
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Yeah my impression has been that they absolutely try to have their heroic ubermensch cake and eat the tragic antiheroic stormtroopers too. I can't think of any of the videogames, which is how I imagine the vast majority of people interact with GW lore, that depict the marines as anything but human stand-ins or straight-up heroes and protagonists, for example. You can find textual evidence in the official lore for the 'these guys are fascist monsters' but the marketing and superficial level is absolutely 'these guys are badass heroes barely holding off the alien hordes'. Reminds me of '300', or 'Judge Dredd'.
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May 26, 2021 20:18
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Mostly the way they try to thread the needle is by having the actual space fascism be done by humans, with space marines at worst bemused and disgusted and at best actively working to prevent it. See The Emperor’s Gift, Spears of the Emperor etc. With the return of Guilliman in the recent lore, they had him all but turn to the camera and say “Fascism is bad, ok?” When I started reading black library stuff in the early 00s the setting veered erratically between Starship Troopers (the completely earnest Heinlein paean to fascism) and Starship Troopers (the campy Verhoeven sendup of fascism). Since then they’ve settled on a tone that sharply criticizes the fascist elements in the lore but stops short of suggesting a viable alternative. “The Imperium of Man sucks, so do the best you can to mitigate it” is the party line. Heroic characters are usually the ones who stand up to the fascists and stop or kill them, but usually everyone agrees that of course the Imperium must be preserved, we just need to weed out this bad apple. It’s a liberal perspective, not a leftist one.
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May 26, 2021 20:51
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Peyote Panda posted:BTW, thanks for mentioning the 28mag. I'd never heard of it before and am enjoying the art submissions there! Oh you are very welcome! I think the 28 movement and especially the 28mag are one of the best things to happen to this hobby. I'm really interested how creative people will present female space marines. I mean apart from just painting a normal SM with helmet on, or a simple headswap. (I don't think there will be GS boobs and tutu skirts.) Spanish Manlove posted:Grognards ruin everything. So that's why I painted up my TWC sergeant with a black skin tone (also to practice painting different skin tones) and now I really want to make a squad of shieldmaidens with jump packs. The other day I talked to someone who was really upset about the black Gondorian in Shadow of War, so now I really want to paint a Gondor Army for MESBG where everyone is black. (I also avoided making a Black Númenóreans being canon joke) DLC Inc posted:I assumed Sisters Of Battle---an infinitely more aesthetically radical army---was the answer to the "female space marine" question. That being said it'd still be neat to see women in the Marine ranks. Actually that's one thing these guys brought up, that SoB are the female marines, and if we so much want female Space Marines, then we should have male Sisters of Battle as well. Leperflesh posted:There's historicals-players who field german WWII armies, and some of them are fine, just people playing a game, and some of them are, obviously not fine. A couple of months ago I watched a guy rage in one of the local groups here that his army showcase video of his painted SS forces to the song "Erika" got banned by Youtube. "That song is there on youtube in multiple instances, in fact I got it from there myself, I don't know what's the problem!" Also thank you guys for the support! I still did not touch anything hobby related since, but that's partly because of adopting a kitten who is destroying my life right now.
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May 26, 2021 22:54
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Leperflesh posted:I can understand the temptation to follow the logic of the science fiction in the game to its own conclusions and say that the women space marines just look exactly like the men. The problem with using that approach to 'fix' the female space marine problem is that it still leaves women as essentially invisible, but adds in some questionable declarations about the nature of transgender people into the mix. It's thin cover. It says: "We don't have to change our models. We still are presenting that the ultimate warrior archetype is a male presenting archetype. Superhero = masculine. And, of course, women who undergo the training to become strong enough aren't really women any more. To become a supreme athlete is to de-feminize." These are not progressive messages. Thank you for this post I couldn't articulate why "well female space marines should just like the male ones anyway!" opinion bothered me, but you managed to hit it
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May 27, 2021 00:01
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with a rebel yell she QQd posted:Actually that's one thing these guys brought up, that SoB are the female marines, and if we so much want female Space Marines, then we should have male Sisters of Battle as well. Yeah they're pretty obviously not the same thing. Marines are the franchise figurehead
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May 27, 2021 00:01
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My first car was a stick
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Misters of Battle should definitely be a thing too
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May 27, 2021 00:05
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bandaid.friend posted:Yeah they're pretty obviously not the same thing. Marines are the franchise figurehead Thats true but there has been a significant effort by GW to feature the SoB much more prominently, the animated 40k 9th edition trailer follows a SoB for 1min 42sec in a 3min 26sec video before a Space Marine even shows up
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May 27, 2021 00:15
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GW should just bite the bullet, release some female astartes, and if anyone complains just say "A Cawl Has Done This"
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May 27, 2021 00:42
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Leperflesh posted:I can understand the temptation to follow the logic of the science fiction in the game to its own conclusions and say that the women space marines just look exactly like the men. The problem with using that approach to 'fix' the female space marine problem is that it still leaves women as essentially invisible, but adds in some questionable declarations about the nature of transgender people into the mix. quote:IMO the right way to fix it is to directly address it in the lore and in the model range by making female-presenting space marines. That doesn't mean their armor should have huge tit plates or whatever, a female-presenting head option would likely be sufficient. Speaking of which, if the Salamanders didn't already have so much flame-emblem merch already purchased, I wonder what sort of icons they might display to show their other notable character of actually having some consideration and regard for non-Marine people of the Imperium. Maybe the battle banner would be one of those old Communist propaganda posters with the hunky Soviet factory worker and Chinese farmer arm-in-arm. Or maybe there would just be an Inquisition flip-out after a chapter captain was caught on video saying, "The Tau had some interesting ideas!"
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May 27, 2021 00:54
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Peyote Panda posted:Yeah, as one of the first guys who honked off on that, thank you for clearly articulating some issues I hadn't thought of. How bout some roses
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May 27, 2021 01:35
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with a rebel yell she QQd posted:Actually that's one thing these guys brought up, that SoB are the female marines, and if we so much want female Space Marines, then we should have male Sisters of Battle as well. Sisters of Battle aren't Marines though. They're normal humans in power armor, which is very different from genetic supersoldiers. Also, the lore reason why the Sisters of Battle exist as an all-female military branch is great and worth keeping. We should get female Marines and no male Sisters
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May 27, 2021 01:57
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That lore reason is also part of why I'd want women marines to still be in the Orders of the Sisters as opposed to the Chapters. It's a natural extension of the Ecclesiarchy loving about and trying to retain/gain military power to enforce their will in spite of the rules set to constrain them. Functionally they can be the same thing, but from a story perspective it's far more interesting to me than just saying "oh and now we have women Ultramarines". By all means you could then allow for defectors who take on a Chapter's colours, or some Ecclesiarchy alligned Chapters taking radical steps to replenish their numbers. Bob's your uncle, female marines without using a hammer to fit it into the lore. To my mind something like that is more elegant than, for example, Cawl's having had secret vaults for 10,000 years. The Age of Apostasy is one of my favourite eras of 40k as a concept and I'd love to see them do something similar in the new fluff seeing as they've refused to go back and cover it much as a 'historical' event. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 02:10 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 02:03
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Lumbermouth posted:Goddammit I just want an easy way to get into Necromunda without having to buy like 6 things. https://onepagerules.com/portfolio/grimdark-future-firefight/ Grimdark Future: Firefight is a single-page skirmish game set in a war-torn sci-fi future, designed to be easy to learn but hard to master. The game is played with 5-10 models per warband, giving you small battles that can be played in 30-45 minutes. Players put together a warband and fight over objective points to control the battlefield, using skirmish tactics to win. The game features alternating activations and brutally quick combat, keeping both players engaged at all times.
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May 27, 2021 03:06
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:How bout some roses Say, this banner and a red with white trim paint scheme ? 
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May 27, 2021 06:39
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mllaneza posted:Say, this banner and a red with white trim paint scheme ? I was doing a whole georgia o'keefe thing. you know, low hanging fruit. Does anyone have any "Warhammer was never that grim or that dark, you dingus" things? I found this, and I want a collection to dump at people since it comes up often. It's also on topic because its for space hulk! 
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May 27, 2021 07:03
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:I was doing a whole georgia o'keefe thing. you know, low hanging fruit. Well, that image was from a 3rd party parody/tongue in cheek article (Dragon Magazine IIRC) because even 25 years ago people were making fun of grimdark. So it's not so much a stab at GW's intention as a reminder that not everyone took it serious even in the 90's. It had silly rules for making Space Hulk into something resembling a mix of chess and Crypt of the Necrodancer. The real proof that Warhammer's tone was not so serious is to dig out the old rulebooks. Rogue Trader with its surfer squats (SLAM SECTOR!) and marines acting as patrol officers arresting space punk graffitti artists. 5th edition WHFB rulebook had silly scenes along the edges of the pages. There was a certain amount of grimdark, but it was one ingredient in a soup of influences and styles, where humour was a much bigger part in the 80's and 90's than now where it barely exists. You'd have John Blanche's iconic drab medieval monks shoving thousands of psykers to be sacrificed to the carcass of an undead emperor on one page, and you'd have a mercenary smoking a cigarette while competing in a gravbike race on a desert planet on the next page. Yes it was a brutal universe, it was violent and it was over the top, but it was a more cartoonish violence. It might have been to some degree because the artistry was more basic in a way, but the imagery was very often "look at these two dudes standing next to each other and just shooting guns and stabbing with swords", more like Saturday cartoons than broody and grimdark. The effects of the violence was not as much in focus as the call for you to look at this dude! Isn't he rad! He has two guns and a mohawk! Don't you want to paint minis like this?! Half of the time the warriors depicted are just shooting into the air, not giving a drat about even aiming! Looking through the pages, that's how I'd try to explain the difference between the 80's to mid 90's Warhammer feel and the current one. I just started up a nostalgia project of re-assembling the Orc & Goblin army of my childhood dreams. It's very obvious how much more boring the O&G army got in 6th ed WHFB, when they intentionally phased out the humour of the previous editions of the faction, and kind of... didn't have anything to replace it with. The early 2000's O&G range is just very lifeless. At least in AoS they started to add SOMETHING to the design again. But before that, after the more playful design mindset was phased out, there's just this creative wasteland when it comes to a lot of warhammer factions. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 08:34 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 08:09
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:That lore reason is also part of why I'd want women marines to still be in the Orders of the Sisters as opposed to the Chapters. It's a natural extension of the Ecclesiarchy loving about and trying to retain/gain military power to enforce their will in spite of the rules set to constrain them. Functionally they can be the same thing, but from a story perspective it's far more interesting to me than just saying "oh and now we have women Ultramarines". By all means you could then allow for defectors who take on a Chapter's colours, or some Ecclesiarchy alligned Chapters taking radical steps to replenish their numbers. Bob's your uncle, female marines without using a hammer to fit it into the lore. To my mind something like that is more elegant than, for example, Cawl's having had secret vaults for 10,000 years. this is just a long winded way of saying "no female marines because they have cooties gross"
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May 27, 2021 10:43
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Moola posted:this is just a long winded way of saying "no female marines because they have cooties gross" WARHAMMER 40,000
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May 27, 2021 11:23
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Moola posted:Misters of Battle should definitely be a thing too I vaguely recall hearing about some custom custodes models that are basically JoJo characters with helmets on.
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May 27, 2021 11:51
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does gw have any specialist games with space marines in them besides AI at the moment? not counting games they don't sell any more
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May 27, 2021 12:17
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Cease to Hope posted:does gw have any specialist games with space marines in them besides AI at the moment? not counting games they don't sell any more Kill Team?
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May 27, 2021 12:27
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Imagined posted:Kill Team? oh yeah, i forgot that was back in the mix now
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May 27, 2021 13:07
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Cease to Hope posted:does gw have any specialist games with space marines in them besides AI at the moment? not counting games they don't sell any more GW doesn't sell them but isn't there a tonne of Barnes and Noble ones.
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May 27, 2021 13:22
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Indolent Bastard posted:https://onepagerules.com/portfolio/grimdark-future-firefight/ Does it have a campaign system as involved as Necromunda's? That's the main reason I want to play it.
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May 27, 2021 15:45
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with a rebel yell she QQd posted:Actually that's one thing these guys brought up, that SoB are the female marines, and if we so much want female Space Marines, then we should have male Sisters of Battle as well. But there are men in the Adeptus Sororitas though. I mean, look at the Penitent Engines, and the Arco-flagellants, and the Preacher and Missionary, and... And when I was talking about female space marines, I was referring more to the lore aspect, though those are valid points I hadn't thought about when I quickly wrote that quick-and-dirty way to square the circle.
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May 27, 2021 15:50
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Moola posted:this is just a long winded way of saying "no female marines because they have cooties gross" It's nothing of the sort, and you know that.
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May 27, 2021 15:57
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