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Dawgstar posted:Was. The Camarilla retook it. Yeah but the point stands, the big majority minority or non-US cities were mostly Sabbat.
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May 26, 2021 23:27
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They still have D.C. don't they? Or did that get taken back too? And as someone with family in Mexico City it being treated as a den of ultimate carnal depravity will never not be funny.
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May 26, 2021 23:48
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Did the Giovanni (or the Hecata, I guess) ever claim Boston?
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May 26, 2021 23:49
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It’s tough to do any playable version of the Sabbat in TYOOL 2021 that isn’t a black comedy like Dark Heresy or Paranoia because they’re functionally a reactionary death-cult. In V5, the Camarilla is functionally the powers of neoliberal global capitalism. The Anarchs and Sabbat are both opposed to it but for different reasons, just as socialists/anarchists and the alt-right are opposed to capitalism for different reasons. The Anarchs oppose the Cam because they represent millennia of generational wealth and power held by a tiny minority of elders who use it to alienate and oppress the working vampires at the bottom of the hierarchy, measurably making things worse for both mortals and vampires. To top that off, they dropped the ball at the one thing justifying their existence - the Masquerade - since they drew the attention of the Second Inquisition (Debatable). The Sabbat opposes the Cam because it believes in a global conspiracy of They made a great edgelord villain in the 90s, but I find it hard to justify using them as anything but antagonists now. Gatto Grigio fucked around with this message at 00:28 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 00:16
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I... had never seen the sabbat so perfectly summed up before.
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May 27, 2021 00:40
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The problem with using all those strikethroughs for metaphorical impact is that the Sabbat are factually and canonically correct about their priors. The Antes did and do that! Until the canon split between the end of VtM Rev and V5, the Ante endgame was proven to be happening! The Cam did and do that! It's only their conclusions that are wrong, which one could argue makes them prime for player characters as reform-Sabbat "I was with you right up to the baby eating." Unless V5 retcons virtually the entirety of the background of the VtM setting (up to and including the foundations of most clans and the Cam and Sabbat), the Sabbat as outlined there are actually correct about a conspiracy of multiple tiers of monsters to oppress both mortals and other monsters. They're right! You can't actually draw the comparison unless you think those things are actually true in your comparison!
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May 27, 2021 00:56
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:The problem with using all those strikethroughs for metaphorical impact is that the Sabbat are factually and canonically correct about their priors. The Antes did and do that! Until the canon split between the end of VtM Rev and V5, the Ante endgame was proven to be happening! The Cam did and do that! It's only their conclusions that are wrong, which one could argue makes them prime for player characters as reform-Sabbat "I was with you right up to the baby eating." Except the WoD is still here, isn’t it? The Antes haven’t appeared beyond Ravnos waking up and wrecking his clan and the rest are unfounded rumor. The alt-right is an example of a group that is often right about the problems of neoliberal capitalism (alienation of young men, unemployment, wealth inequality) but wrong about the conclusions (feminism, illegal immigrants, Jewish conspiracies). It doesn’t make them any more sympathetic. If you want to rebel and break out from the Camarilla’s thumb and define your destiny as a vampire, you join the Anarchs. V5 even explicitly states that many Anarchs are ex-Sabbat who broke away from cycles of violence and indoctrination. There are no Good Sabbat for the same reasons there are no Good Nazis or Good Cops; the night you become “Good Sabbat” is when you leave the Sabbat (same goes for the Cam).
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May 27, 2021 01:13
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Here's a concept: ex-Sabbat who thinks the Sabbat were right to want to rebel against the Antedeluvians and follow Caine, they just got Caine 100% wrong. So they'd be trying to recreate a modern version of the Dark Ages Path of God I guess. I have a friend who was thinking of running a Kindred of the East game and my concept would be a Wan Kuei equivalent to Becket.
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May 27, 2021 01:42
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Gatto Grigio posted:The alt-right is an example of a group that is often right about the problems of neoliberal capitalism (alienation of young men, unemployment, wealth inequality) but wrong about the conclusions (feminism, illegal immigrants, Jewish conspiracies). It doesn’t make them any more sympathetic. In your analogy's framing, this would be saying "the alt-right are correct until the part about doing hate crimes, but the reasons for those hate crimes are sound," which I don't think you'd agree with! Now if your analogy was quote:The Sabbat opposes the Cam because it believes in a global conspiracy of I'd agree with the analogy's framing 100% and say that the Sabbat still sound like shithead idiot morons (they are, after all, vampires). e: at the end of the day you're talking about playing actual for-real murderous parasites any way you slice it. They're bad!
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May 27, 2021 01:47
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Yeah. ‘Just because one Antediluvian exists doesn’t mean they all do’ is not a super strong argument. Here’s a nice little thread on why the Sabbat are unique on their own: https://mobile.twitter.com/100thingsilove/status/1397560516592156675
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May 27, 2021 02:01
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:And I'm saying it's a bad analogy, glibly appealing as it may be, because there actually is a global conspiracy of the ultra-powerful (vampires and their vampdads) controlling the world and making the world lovely, they're incorrect about what to do about it. That’s not what I said at all. “The alt-right are correct until the part about doing hate crimes” =/= “the reasons for those hate crimes are sound”. People who commit hate crimes don’t do it because they honestly think it will improve their economic status or fix actual problems, hate crimes don’t “solve” anything, they’re only justifications for lovely behavior. And now your also moving the goalposts by reframing “ancient vampire gods who want to eat the world” equal to “wealthy and powerful vampires who want to hold on to their wealth and power.” Acknowledging that the inequality of wealth and its problems exist doesn’t justify going into full on QAnon “baby-eating cabal” conspiracies. You also haven’t answered the question: “If the Sabbat is right, why is the WoD still here?” (Beyond the Doylist reason of “it’s a popular game and they want to keep selling books.”) Yeah, there was a Gehenna supplement back in the 2000s with variations of “what if Gehenna happened?” That’s irrelevant because V5’s ultimate answer is “it didn’t.” The Sabbat at this point has lost any ethos as the heralds of the end times, like those Millenialist cults who predict that Jesus is going to come back “any day now.” They’re chumps because their End Times are here, it’s just that they came not in the form of vampire gods, but in the form of black ops squads made of the same mortals they so underestimate. If you want to talk about weak arguments that’s the weakest one of all. Gatto Grigio fucked around with this message at 02:21 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 02:14
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Dawgstar posted:Yeah. ‘Just because one Antediluvian exists doesn’t mean they all do’ is not a super strong argument. Yeah there’s nothing in that tweet thread that contradicts what I said, even to the point of “you’re probably better off with older editions of Vampire for a Sabbat game, and one can understand why the V5 team is reticent to make them playable.”
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May 27, 2021 02:27
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Gatto Grigio posted:That’s not what I said at all. “The alt-right are correct until the part about doing hate crimes” =/= “the reasons for those hate crimes are sound”. People who commit hate crimes don’t do it because they honestly think it will improve their economic status or fix actual problems, hate crimes don’t “solve” anything, they’re only justifications for lovely behavior. I think the issue is more “except doing hate crimes” includes the part where Jews still run the world being “true.” It’s going “okay, Jews run the world, but it’s bad to kill them.” Which, uh, Uhhhhhhh
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May 27, 2021 02:29
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The Sabbat also hasn't been anti-Antediluvian since [Tzimitsce] faked its own death and took it all over in the first place. Gehenna-as-a-thing makes even less sense when in the lead-ups to their deaths all [Lasombra] did was gently caress around in his castle while [Cappadocious] alternated between writing self-insert biblical fanfiction and organizing really lovely family get-togethers. To the Camarilla the Antediluvians are/were presented as "really gently caress-off old vampires that are either dead or blown out of proportion". When your whole sect is built around "every injustice/insult you face is due to these dozen or so shadowy folks and totally not because we your elders are using you in the same way we claim our enemies are" it's just as delusional as was presented by Gatto. *edit* Like you even have the horrid feedback loop where the evil fuckers in charge don't actually believe the poo poo but see it as a good way to get disenfranchised folks on your side being replaced by true believers that only make the poo poo even worse. Vykos is off in DC trying to make Constantinople 2: Now With More Flesh Walls inspiring folks to do horrid poo poo for the sheer joy of it because they don't get the bigger plan. citybeatnik fucked around with this message at 05:33 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 02:31
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Mors Rattus posted:I think the issue is more “except doing hate crimes” includes the part where Jews still run the world being “true.” It’s going “okay, Jews run the world, but it’s bad to kill them.” Im saying “Ok, wealth disparity exists, but it’s bad to blame it on antisemetic conspiracies and use that as hate crime justification.” I said right-wingers look at things like wealth disparity and wrongly blame the Jews instead of capitalism (because of antisemitism and a lack of class consciousness). The root of the problem both sides agree on is “wealth disparity exists”, not “Jews control the world.” Gatto Grigio fucked around with this message at 02:48 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 02:34
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citybeatnik posted:The Sabbat also hasn't been anti-Antediluvian since [Tzimitsce] faked its own death and took it all over in the first place. Gehenna-as-a-thing makes even less sense when in the lead-ups to their deaths all [Lasombra] did was gently caress around in his castle while [Cappadocious] alternated between writing self-insert biblical fanfiction and organizing really lovely family get-togethers. To the Camarilla the Antediluvians are/were presented as "really gently caress-off old vampires that are either dead or blown out of proportion". And then one woke up and nearly killed India.
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May 27, 2021 13:46
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Dawgstar posted:And then one woke up and nearly killed India. We've all had mornings like that.
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May 27, 2021 14:41
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I still love that the week of nightmares short story collection included a werewolf pack who was sent in to figure out what the gently caress was going on and showed up just in time to get spirit nuked.
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May 27, 2021 14:57
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Dawgstar posted:And then one woke up and nearly killed India. oh, so one of them is COVID-19?
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May 27, 2021 15:16
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Kurieg posted:I still love that the week of nightmares short story collection included a werewolf pack who was sent in to figure out what the gently caress was going on and showed up just in time to get spirit nuked. *Laughs in Nagah*
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May 27, 2021 15:53
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I like the bit where every splat turns up at CNN to run damage control and just sort of stare at each other and then go home.
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May 27, 2021 16:55
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Kurieg posted:I still love that the week of nightmares short story collection included a werewolf pack who was sent in to figure out what the gently caress was going on and showed up just in time to get spirit nuked. To be fair, a random pack of clueless garou showing up into the middle of a giant mess at the worst possible moment is basically Werewolf: The Apocalypse.txt
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May 27, 2021 16:59
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:e: at the end of the day you're talking about playing actual for-real murderous parasites any way you slice it. They're bad! This is the most important thing to remember when playing any vampire. There's no real way to paint any vampire organization as being good. When the sun comes up, the only things that vampire organizations are good for are the bloodsuckers in charge of them. If I remember correctly, that was an actual theme that's come up frequently enough in VtM, but was definitely central to a lot of VtR. Vampires are not good, they're just a different shade of bad. That was kind of a selling point in the 90s.
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May 27, 2021 17:11
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Speaking of V:tM, has there ever been a good premade module/adventure path that wasn’t just a metaplot railroad?
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May 28, 2021 16:44
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Another VtM question: what was the general Sabbat attitude to the death of Zapathasura? Mostly just "HAHA TOLD YOU SO!" or was there at least a little bit of awkward shuffling of feet by the centuries spanning movement dedicated to the destruction of the Antedeluvians where they had to admit both that they dropped the ball and weren't even the ones to bring it down?
citybeatnik fucked around with this message at 18:48 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 28, 2021 18:42
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Gatto Grigio posted:Speaking of V:tM, has there ever been a good premade module/adventure path that wasn’t just a metaplot railroad? I genuinely can't think of one. I don't think the game really lends itself well to that sort of thing, which is not to say they weren't super railroad-y. citybeatnik posted:Another VtM question: what was the general Sabbat attitude to the death of Zapathasura? Mostly just "HAHA TOLD YOU SO!" or was there at least a little bit of awkward shuffling of feet by the centuries spanning movement dedicated to the Antedeluvians where they had to admit both that they dropped the ball and weren't even the ones to bring it down? The answer is "yes!" Some pushed for a harder line and more active stance in anti-Antediluvian operations (especially but not limited to the Black Hand), some used it as an excuse to push their own agendas as per any vampire ever and the most interesting bit were the Ravnos antitribu who twigged "hey, if THAT'S what happens when one of the 13 bites it, then did [Tzimisce] and [Lasombra] really die?"
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May 28, 2021 18:50
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Seems like the Sabbat shot down a lot of their credibility too when the ones responsible for taking down the Ravnos ante were *checks notes* the same mortal humans they ultimately despise. Like if legit think the antes are an existential threat, I’d get on the good side of the 7+ Billion people with nukes.
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May 28, 2021 18:55
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Gatto Grigio posted:Seems like the Sabbat shot down a lot of their credibility too when the ones responsible for taking down the Ravnos ante were *checks notes* the same mortal humans they ultimately despise.
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May 28, 2021 19:08
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Gatto Grigio posted:Seems like the Sabbat shot down a lot of their credibility too when the ones responsible for taking down the Ravnos ante were *checks notes* the same mortal humans they ultimately despise. By nukes and mortal humans you mean the Technocracy's magical neutron bombs because that's actually what did it, or at least killed the ancient Keui-Jin Bodhisattva who were fighting Ravnos and had things under control until the bombs killed them and then the Technocracy's mirror satellites finished the antediluvian off because there was no more magical cloud cover to fight under. The Technocracy: "Even when we're helping, we're kind of not!"
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May 28, 2021 19:13
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Any stuff on the Ashirra in V5?
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May 28, 2021 19:30
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Dawgstar posted:By nukes and mortal humans you mean the Technocracy's magical neutron bombs because that's actually what did it, or at least killed the ancient Keui-Jin Bodhisattva who were fighting Ravnos and had things under control until the bombs killed them and then the Technocracy's mirror satellites finished the antediluvian off because there was no more magical cloud cover to fight under. Time of Judgement ruled 
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May 28, 2021 19:40
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Dawgstar posted:By nukes and mortal humans you mean the Technocracy's magical neutron bombs because that's actually what did it, or at least killed the ancient Keui-Jin Bodhisattva who were fighting Ravnos and had things under control until the bombs killed them and then the Technocracy's mirror satellites finished the antediluvian off because there was no more magical cloud cover to fight under. I’d say that qualifies, unless you want to debate if mages are human? (In which case it all goes back to magechat).
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May 28, 2021 19:41
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MonsieurChoc posted:Any stuff on the Ashirra in V5? Not that much beyond them being a sort of Camarilla analogue in the Middle East, but it would be cool if we see a source book. The biggest litmus test of V5 for me how well they present the “Kindred of the East”, if at all.
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May 28, 2021 19:44
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Gatto Grigio posted:I’d say that qualifies, unless you want to debate if mages are human? (In which case it all goes back to magechat). Honestly in some cases no, some mages aren't exactly human anymore, but you['re trying to attribute it to like NORAD and not 'magic bombs dropped by cyborg wizards and people cosplaying the Last Starfighter.' (If for the uninitiated that made the Technocracy seem cool, I promise they're not.)
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May 28, 2021 20:15
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MonsieurChoc posted:Any stuff on the Ashirra in V5? Formally allied with the Camarilla via the blood wedding of Tegyrius to Victoria Ash. There's slightly more about it in the Camarilla sourcebook.
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May 28, 2021 20:39
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Even if mages aren't human (they are), vampires are not in a position to know the difference.
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May 28, 2021 21:38
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Gatto Grigio posted:Speaking of V:tM, has there ever been a good premade module/adventure path that wasn’t just a metaplot railroad? Diablerie Mexico, obviously.
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May 28, 2021 21:45
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Arivia posted:Diablerie Mexico, obviously. Not a great adventure, but definitely a fun read! Is there an open-source program for V5 or Storyteller system in general? Because it seems like good modules for WoD in general are a niche to be filled and I’d like to try my hand.
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May 28, 2021 22:18
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Gatto Grigio posted:Not a great adventure, but definitely a fun read! I think Storytellers Vault has stuff on how to create your own modules and such. I've never really poked around it too much beyond snagging art packs
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May 28, 2021 22:25
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joylessdivision posted:I think Storytellers Vault has stuff on how to create your own modules and such. I've never really poked around it too much beyond snagging art packs Thanks! Alas, V5 isn’t on the list of acceptable content. 
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May 28, 2021 22:44
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