|
Rody One Half posted:I wouldn't be surprised if Guts wouldn't even recognize Borkoff. There was some other stuff happening at the time. But. We the audience know Borkoff and want to see him get killed off in a cool-rear end fashion. It doesn't have to be related to Guts at all, we just wanna see the rear end in a top hat who held Guts' arm in his jaws get flushed down in a cool fashion. GorfZaplen posted:Guts blows off his top half with the cannon and his body keeps running after death, trampling dozens of smaller apostles and taking some of them with him, off a cliff GorfZaplen posted:All in a single two page spread
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 03:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 12:15 |
|
|
.
Flesnolk fucked around with this message at 05:05 on May 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 03:58
|
|
|
I have always questioned that reading as my take is that he hunted down as many apostles as he could and it is just that a lot of them showed up at the eclipse.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 04:13
|
|
|
Hunt11 posted:I have always questioned that reading as my take is that he hunted down as many apostles as he could and it is just that a lot of them showed up at the eclipse. Its very likely that he didn't know which ones were responsible exactly, he didn't even see most of them die But he drat well knows that all Apostles are responsible, and holds them all as such.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 04:26
|
|
|
I mean let's be real, there are few things in existence more certain than "If it's an Apostle it needs to die." The closest thing we had to a sympathetic one was Rosine and even then the manga was very clear "she still needs to die."
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 05:16
|
|
|
The chilliest apostle seem to be Irvine, who literally seems to want nothing but to be left alone. But by definition as an Apostle he's done at least ONE horrid thing (although a sacrifice can themselves be an awful POS). Besides that, there's Grunbeld, who prior to the New Band appears to have just protected his country, and Locus, who while clearly sinister in his own fashion, was prior to the New Band was known as a traveling hero knight. Mule talks about him like he's Berserk Lancelot. Apostles tend to be hedonistic monsters, but that doesn't always manifest the same way. Even Zodd, who does casual murder all the time and is medieval Akuma, explicitly says he had no interest in the big dumb Eclipse feast and only showed up so he could fight Gaiseric.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 06:50
|
|
|
Rosey the moth girl also wasn't a hedonistic freak, though her 'elf children' certainly were. She was just a more extreme version of who she was as a human. That's really what it is- you stop lying about who and what you were and you unleash your ID for absolutely the worst. So if you genuinely weren't that bad a dude, you probably won't be that terrible an Apostle...except for the fact that every Apostle, to simply exist, must drat something to unending torment forever and always. So you know, no matter how nice they seem, they're still that kind of lovely, willing to sacrifice others to a fate far, far worse than death for their own desires.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 07:51
|
|
|
It goes back to my desire to know what exactly happened to create the notable neo-hawks, and why are they so different from the other apostles, who are almost uniformly deranged man eaters. It's not really important of course but there you go. Somewhat relatedly, I still want to know what the deal is with Rakshas. He says he wants to kill Griffith, and I don't think he's lying about that, but other stuff he does is weird. He hitches a ride to secretly watch the Ganishka endgame, he's constantly showing Silas stuff he probably shouldn't be allowed to know about, and probably my biggest question: why did he target Rickert exactly? The presentation, and Silas, suggest Locus told him to do it, but I don't really buy Locus being able to tell Rakshas to do poo poo. Likewise I don't buy Silat's other guess, that it was Griffith himself giving that order. For all else Griffith has done, that just doesn't pass the sniff test.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 08:00
|
|
|
Killing Rickert seems like a (possibly misguided) way to ingratiate yourself with Griffith, as step one of your murder plot. Whether that idea was planted in Rakshas' head by someone else or he was somehow aware of the Slap, I guess we'll never know.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 08:28
|
|
|
I wonder what would happen if someone just said no to the become-an-Apostle offer. The God Hand were fine with just letting the Count die when he refused to sacrifice his daughter so maybe they'd just shrug and forget it.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 08:38
|
|
|
Flesnolk posted:I wonder what would happen if someone just said no to the become-an-Apostle offer. The God Hand were fine with just letting the Count die when he refused to sacrifice his daughter so maybe they'd just shrug and forget it. They might get pissy and kill you. Most Apostle would bes aren't on the verge of death like the Count, so that'd be funny
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 08:42
|
|
|
tbf he wasn't about to die the first time they gave him an offer :V
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 09:09
|
|
|
Cannon arm jammed in the roof of his mouth feels like the only right way for Bork to ever go out, considering.Rody One Half posted:The chilliest apostle seem to be Irvine, who literally seems to want nothing but to be left alone. But by definition as an Apostle he's done at least ONE horrid thing (although a sacrifice can themselves be an awful POS). That's one reason I like the Neo dudes a lot too, Grunbeld's rad.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 10:20
|
|
|
Spoilering this since there are new people still making their way through the manga: Right before Griffith's behelit activates, he starts to say something like "Go away! Stay away from me! If you touch me... I will never be able to... I won't be able to... You...". What is he trying to say? He never completes the sentence.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 11:06
|
|
|
Rody One Half posted:It goes back to my desire to know what exactly happened to create the notable neo-hawks, and why are they so different from the other apostles, who are almost uniformly deranged man eaters. It's not really important of course but there you go.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 11:52
|
|
|
Rody One Half posted:It goes back to my desire to know what exactly happened to create the notable neo-hawks, and why are they so different from the other apostles, who are almost uniformly deranged man eaters. It's not really important of course but there you go. Looking at the wiki entry for Grunbeld I would assume that they were specifically chosen for being the most noble/stable of the apostles.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 12:04
|
|
|
I imagine the Godhand do theoretically turn you loose if you say no, but also the way behelits operate via causality, I don't think you get the offer in the first place if you're in a position to say no.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 12:08
|
|
|
Teriyaki Koinku posted:Spoilering this since there are new people still making their way through the manga: My read was always that he wouldn't be able to realize his dream. It reads like a warning but is actually a rejection of others in favor of the self. Guts and Casca successfully coming to his aid would render him physically or emotionally unable to go through with the sacrifice - maybe he doesn't feel the eclipse coming on per se, but he's haunted by visions of his life as an invalid and would choose utter destruction instead.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 12:37
|
|
|
I've reread that part many times. Its such a deliciously ambiguous passage. You can't write better poo poo that. Even the eclipse wouldn't be the same without the lead in. That's why I prefer the 90s tv show version more than the manga because it forgoes the demon and assassins. I think he means they won't be equals or friends. Griffith loved Guts and needed him as friend. But he never believed he needed Guts to be successful or achieve his dream. He didn't need Guts for his survival. If Guts pulled him up, it would be an admission that Griffith is truly broken. I don't think Griffith realized his own dream was over until then.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 13:06
|
|
|
I'll always be curious if Griffith believed his own bullshit, from that speech with Charlotte, or if it was just part of his elaborate web of sophistry he uses to justify his conquest. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually doesn't realize how much Guts meant to him, but at the same time he seems to have a pretty firm grasp on most other poo poo, so it'd be kind of odd of him to indulge in flagrant self-deception (especially given the times that he shows his vulnerable side to Guts previously)
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 13:33
|
|
|
OnimaruXLR posted:I'll always be curious if Griffith believed his own bullshit, from that speech with Charlotte, or if it was just part of his elaborate web of sophistry he uses to justify his conquest. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually doesn't realize how much Guts meant to him, but at the same time he seems to have a pretty firm grasp on most other poo poo, so it'd be kind of odd of him to indulge in flagrant self-deception (especially given the times that he shows his vulnerable side to Guts previously) My take from his last thoughts was a human as that he knew how much Guts meant to him and resented Guts for it, and then following rape scene was him deliberately tearing down their love triangle in the most horrifically spiteful way possible
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 13:41
|
|
|
I'm curious as to what Griffith thinks he's doing right now. Like he's created, in a manner of speaking, an empty map to paint with his fancy empire, with it's pseudo-utopian cooperative society and early modern infrastructure+bureaucracy, and he's even trying to get universal compulsory education going. But does he just envision this continuing... indefinitely? Like I doubt he ages, and I also doubt he is, at least in his own mind, setting up a second round of sacrifices. Does he just think he'll be building an ever advancing utopian society forever? What about the other four, with their rat swarm, super orgy, garden of earthly delights, and Being A Brain? He's not cooperating with them anymore probably, are they all just mutually ignoring each other? Does any of this even DO anything for him or is he just going through the motions since he's pot-committed?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 13:58
|
|
|
The riper the fruit, the sweeter the juice. My take is that Griffin wants to bring humanity to (his idealized) peak and then do one hell of a cataclysmic rug pull. The betrayal would be consistent with what he did to Caska and Guts.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 16:04
|
|
|
I I always felt like when Griffith became Femto, for all intents and purposes he died. And that the entity Femto is a something like a natural phenomenon, hard-wired to create his human-self's vision. He doesn't emote at all after being reborn, he mentions later how seeing all the swords Rickert made didn't make him feel anything. I don't recall the chapters leading up to/are set in Falconia cause its been a while and I want to re-read them in the deluxe edition, but I recall feeling that he seemed inhuman in a robotic way. I mean, for somebody who is making his childhood dream a reality he doesn't really look like he's enjoying it.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 16:18
|
|
|
I look at it the other way - it's Griffith fully mask off and unleashed. He doesn't have to pretend to care about people anymore, he has their adulation and devotion. He is king poo poo and absolutely knows it.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 16:49
|
|
|
In regards to the other God Hand they seem more like a confederation than any cohesive unit. They're all powerful demi god things, and on some special occasions they get together for a good time, but otherwise they all seem to operate on their own towards their own goals for influencing humanity to terrible actions that will bring about more of their kind (see Slan and the Orgy).
The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 16:55 on May 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 16:50
|
|
|
Harlock posted:I look at it the other way - it's Griffith fully mask off and unleashed. He doesn't have to pretend to care about people anymore, he has their adulation and devotion. He is king poo poo and absolutely knows it. The thing is Griffith the human did care about people. You can't make a sacrifice if you straight up don't care, that's the point. He's a ruthless, evil fuckwad, but the entire argument Conrad and Ubik pull him over the edge with is "you've been spending bodies this whole time, because if you stop you'll betray those you've spent already, and this is just that same logic on a bigger scale." There is of course, the additional, more personal layer of his relationship with Guts, but if this wasn't relevant, Conrad and Ubik wouldn't have bothered. As for og Griffith being dead and Femto being a Castle In the Skybot, I don't think that follows either. Your ego persists beyond your reincarnation, if it didn't you wouldn't have apostles capable of giving a gently caress, as the Count did about his daughter. And though Griffith claims to be free/chalks up anything lingering to his fusion with the Moonchild, I don't think a Griffith/Femto who was truly free would have gone to the Hill to start with, or let Rickert go/display clear interest in his escape. He may not be capable of REGRETING his decision, because as the unfettered id of Griffith he will, as he says, never betray The Dream, but that's not the same thing as being free of all his emotions or attachment (indeed, if that were the case, Femto would never have done that business at the END of the Eclipse, because he wouldn't have cared enough anymore for it to still be personal). There is, I suppose, the incongruity of his behavior at the end of Guardians of Desire, which is way too cackling stage villain for what we see of Griffith/Femto later, but everything's a bit wobbly in Black Swordsman since it's so early. The Notorious ZSB posted:In regards to the other God Hand they seem more like a confederation than any cohesive unit. They're all powerful demi god things, and on some special occasions they get together for a good time, but otherwise they all seem to operate on their own towards their own goals for influencing humanity to terrible actions that will bring about more of their kind (see Slan and the Orgy). To a degree they're autonomous of course, but there clearly has been A Plan for quite some time, possibly since Void first wiped out the Empire. Both the Holy See and the magi have the shared prophecy about the Hawk of Darkness that must have been around for quite some time. Farnesse mentions it when the Chain Knights find the red lake (the remains of the band): 5 times the sun darkens, the hawk of darkness births the age of darkness, master of the sinful black sheep, king of the blind white sheep. Then Scheirke brings it up in her own first appearance as well. Clearly, for a long time, Femto and Fantasia were the endgame, possibly Void's own endgame, what with being Brain Man. Now, this hangs a big ? on what happened to Void's old coworkers, who I have to say LOOK a hell of a lot cooler than his current coworkers, who while memorable in their own way, are just two little dudes, a succubus, and a dude in Phantom of Paradise cosplay, as compared to the old crew who look loving NUTS. My current guess is Void himself got rid of them somehow. Rody One Half fucked around with this message at 17:16 on May 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 17:10
|
|
|
Griffith's got exactly what he wanted all long, he's the king of the world and everybody loves him. I don't know why it should be taken as read that it's a scam and he's planning to kill his devoted followers - he is *literally* living the dream
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 17:15
|
|
|
Yeah that goes in the bin with people thinking Casca will rejoin Griffith or Guts is going to go through another party wipe and become the Black Swordsman again, it just doesn't reflect the series at all.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 17:18
|
|
|
Regarding Grunbeld there's a whole story of his life up to becoming an apostle that was thought of by Muira, albeit written by someone else, that seems interesting enough.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 17:20
|
|
|
Rody One Half posted:The thing is Griffith the human did care about people. You can't make a sacrifice if you straight up don't care, that's the point. He's a ruthless, evil fuckwad, but the entire argument Conrad and Ubik pull him over the edge with is "you've been spending bodies this whole time, because if you stop you'll betray those you've spent already, and this is just that same logic on a bigger scale." There is of course, the additional, more personal layer of his relationship with Guts, but if this wasn't relevant, Conrad and Ubik wouldn't have bothered. He also saves Casca from the mineshaft collapsing on top of her, feels excitement at watching Guts battle Zodd despite himself, and is pointedly staring straight at Guts from afar after his and Zodd's battle on the Holy See docks, just before the invasion. Griffith may want to believe he's free, but it's clear he still has all the same obsessions he had as a human, just more suppressed.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 17:23
|
|
|
Sydin posted:He also saves Casca from the mineshaft collapsing on top of her, feels excitement at watching Guts battle Zodd despite himself, and is pointedly staring straight at Guts from afar after his and Zodd's battle on the Holy See docks, just before the invasion. Griffith may want to believe he's free, but it's clear he still has all the same obsessions he had as a human, just more suppressed. The excitement specifically is what he believes to simply be the child's influence, it's worth noting. Whether that is TRUE or not is up for debate, although I do think him saving Casca is probably not totally his own impetus, consider his track record. re: Grunbeld What the gently caress I have never heard of this Grunbeld novel, this synopsis is Berserk as poo poo too. And yeah no this is like, yeah he's ACTUALLY just a noble warrior, more or less, no secret betrayals on his part or anything. Also: lots of sexual violence. Berserk! Rody One Half fucked around with this message at 17:36 on May 28, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 17:26
|
|
|
Rody One Half posted:To a degree they're autonomous of course, but there clearly has been A Plan for quite some time, possibly since Void first wiped out the Empire. Both the Holy See and the magi have the shared prophecy about the Hawk of Darkness that must have been around for quite some time. Farnesse mentions it when the Chain Knights find the red lake (the remains of the band): 5 times the sun darkens, the hawk of darkness births the age of darkness, master of the sinful black sheep, king of the blind white sheep. Then Scheirke brings it up in her own first appearance as well. Clearly, for a long time, Femto and Fantasia were the endgame, possibly Void's own endgame, what with being Brain Man. I think this is why I called them a confederacy. I'd agree they are all working towards "The Plan" in some fashion, but they're all seemingly independent in operating towards it whatever it is. That certainly could reinforce the idea that Void is the one pulling the strings of causality with his long rear end arms to push his vision. He's certainly been around long enough to put all those things into humanity's collective mythology given we know the Skull Knight and the Empire were almost a millennia ago. The old god hand is such a loving mystery to hang with no way to likely resolve it for us as readers. Hella cool designs, I have loved just about every 2 page spread that involves the God Hand. They're all just captivating to pore over.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 18:42
|
|
|
The situation with Falconia seems like it's a ticking time bomb to me because of two things: 1) It's not just what Griffith wanted, it's like the cartoon fairy tale version of what he wanted. He doesn't just have a castle on a hill, he has one of the few bastions of humanity that is safe on the entire planet. I think the price for that has to be bigger than what was paid at the Eclipse and Tower of Reincarnation. 2) But more than that, it's what humanity, in the broad sense, wanted. They were all hoping the big bird savior would come along and unfuck the world, and (for those lucky enough to get there) that's just what happened. And when it comes to capital D destiny in Berserk, you don't get what you want without paying a price. I don't necessarily think it would've all lead up to another mass sacrifice or that he's going to turn it into Demon City Shinjuku at the last second or something, but there's no way it continues to be fantasy utopia. There might be some imperialism involved to that end; maybe Falconia is also like Rome in that it can only maintain itself by constantly expanding.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 18:44
|
|
|
Re: Griffith, Godhand, and The Idea of Evil etc, one thing I think really works well throughout Berserk is this notion that the mundane world and the fantastic world are versions or layers of the same place - neither one is primary. Events in the mundane world are reflected in the spirit world, and equally are reflections of the spirit world. So the Idea of Evil just being a coagulated blob of humanity-at-large's selfishness and ambition both is powered by and in turn empowers the behavior of Griffith. Even the Godhand's dialog often fits in with this, emphasizing causality, or Slan's lines during the Eclipse: "All are there... love, hatred, pain, pleasure, life, death. It touches me. Such beauty... This is to be human. This is to be evil." Unhappiness in the human world is so pervasive, and creates such strong desires and fears, that they are echoed into various monstrous forms in the spirit world, and ultimately marshalled into the agency of the Godhand by those whose ambitions or desires are strongest. This also means that the collective human desire for a savior and for order are amplified in the spirit world and refracted back into the form of Griffith. Guts' supernatural will to survive and to swing his sword have a similar symbiosis with the Berserker armor. The best defense against all of this, is, of course, selfless love (as opposed to desire), and trust. You can pretty easily map any character with positive personal growth onto which of them is willing to trust others. They address their central loneliness not by exerting power but by relinquishing it. Griffith's absolute unwillingness to do this, even though he knows he could, is the foundation of his capacity for evil and the thing which makes him lonely. He hadn't realized he had been trusting Guts instead of using Guts, which is why Guts' departure is so surprisingly painful for him. Griffith cannot accept that love has to be given and cannot be compelled - he tries to prove this point by forcing the issue with Charlotte. I think this is also why the Moonlight Child has such fascinating possibilities for the story thematically, as it sort of creates a backdoor through with Griffith can receive love (no pun intended). What effect does the Moonlight Child's ability to accept familial unselfish love from Guts and Casca have on Griffith? Maybe it's just a convenient plot device by which Griffith can be both forgiven/redeemed in his child-form, while at the same time vengeance is possible against his adult form.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 19:06
|
|
|
As an endgame story beat, I had the thought there would be some sort of cataclysmic event to counter the behelit sword splitting open the barrier between the physical realm and the Astral realm where everything would just become mundane again - no magic, demons, etc. Otherwise there's no real 'fixing' the hosed up world unless it's reborn in some way. If fixing it were even a goal.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 19:11
|
|
|
The Grunbeld novel has some cool insert illustrations from Miura but woof, I did not enjoy it. If that's how light novels are written, count me out.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 19:28
|
|
|
Rody One Half posted:
Can’t be that noble if he became an Apostle. 
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 19:46
|
|
|
Harlock posted:As an endgame story beat, I had the thought there would be some sort of cataclysmic event to counter the behelit sword splitting open the barrier between the physical realm and the Astral realm where everything would just become mundane again - no magic, demons, etc. I don't think fixng the world is really an option. The other big theme of Beserk is trauma and overcoming it. Trauma doesn't just magically go away it lingers long after the damage has been done. Case and point, Casca, she managed to get her mind magically fixed and is on the right path, but she still has a lot to sort out before she's okay. Similarly I think you can compare fantasia to that and as such there no truly going back to how the world was, even if the tree is destroyed.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 19:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 12:15 |
|
|
Archer666 posted:I I always felt like when Griffith became Femto, for all intents and purposes he died. As for why the missing chapter was cut, IIRC Miura cut it after publishing because he felt it was too early in the story to introduce the Idea of Evil. It was a good call, the story is better with that bit still being a mystery, and as a side effect the Eclipse is also busy as gently caress already and is better off with one less mindblowing revelation. quote:I'm curious as to what Griffith thinks he's doing right now. Like he's created, in a manner of speaking, an empty map to paint with his fancy empire, with it's pseudo-utopian cooperative society and early modern infrastructure+bureaucracy, and he's even trying to get universal compulsory education going. But does he just envision this continuing... indefinitely? Like I doubt he ages, and I also doubt he is, at least in his own mind, setting up a second round of sacrifices. Does he just think he'll be building an ever advancing utopian society forever? What about the other four, with their rat swarm, super orgy, garden of earthly delights, and Being A Brain? He's not cooperating with them anymore probably, are they all just mutually ignoring each other? Does any of this even DO anything for him or is he just going through the motions since he's pot-committed? Griffith had a goal, to be king of his dream castle, but did not really seem to have a plan after that. It feels like he's just living his dream but is going to become more and more aware of how the reality will not be like the dream. We're kind of seeing this already with how Griffith sits as the king in important meetings as his assistant bring up matters within his kingdom and he doesn't seem super interested, throwing out 'yes give everyone all the good things' answers and then riding out with his toy army to win battles and slay evil and feel important. I think what's going to happen with Falconia is Griffith will become increasingly frustrated or disappointed with the practicalities of running a huge kingdom, citizens will start to grow less happy with the state of things over time which Narcissiffith just can not tolerate, and he will lash out in some way which will ultimately bring about maybe his and definitely Falconia's downfall.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2021 21:23
|
|
