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Rutibex posted:yes they do, all the boomers are counting on being able to sell their house in order to afford retirement. if house prices crash than 20 years of poor credit choices are going to bite all of them in the rear end very hard counting on a housing bubble persisting until your retirement becomes exponentially more insane the farther in the future your own retirement is
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May 29, 2021 17:28
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:Realize means receiving money. You've described a situation where I should feel happy for no reason other than abstract feels towards number up. Lmao. yes, because you own an asset from which you can extract significant value, by selling it if need be. the whole conversion has been about recognizing/discussing the privilege that home ownership confers
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May 29, 2021 17:30
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:Thats not being a landlord that's selling an asset. i was talking about treating homes as appreciating assets. tons of people do it, for example my parents live far beyond their means because they "know" they can cash out their house and pay off the credit at some point. if housing prices fell they would be ruined
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May 29, 2021 17:32
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flakeloaf posted:The only sane reason I can think of to do that would be to pay for some wildly expensive medical treatment, and that's more of a condemnation of the way the public health care system is funded (RAISE OUR TAXES). I mean, there's the "fix a thing wrong with the house whose value funds the repair" but that's not a peril that threatens people who do not own [some of] a home. it's pretty contrived in that they really aren't many reasons you would be forced to sell your house to get access to the value, but the fact that you can, and that doing so would result in a significant amount of cash (that you would them be spending on rent or whatever) is still a kind of safety net some of us just don't have flakeloaf posted:counting on a housing bubble persisting until your retirement becomes exponentially more insane the farther in the future your own retirement is it's definitely gambling. otoh, in canada at least, it's been a very lucrative bet for a generation
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May 29, 2021 17:34
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PhilippAchtel posted:You only realize gains from insurance when you make a claim. Until then it's just numbers on a paper. Those are really not analogous, but to give you an answer, I think that we give insurance companies free money to invest with as exchange for a service of providing coverage in case of calamity.
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May 29, 2021 17:37
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Rutibex posted:i was talking about treating homes as appreciating assets. tons of people do it, for example my parents live far beyond their means because they "know" they can cash out their house and pay off the credit at some point. if housing prices fell they would be ruined Well my parents expect to die working and hope to have the house paid off first. Dad's still drywalling at 59. Yes, I have access to the possibility of a line of credit that I could absolutely not pay back. Some people are better off than me and have just enough subjective security to live above their means. Society's dependency on debt is a huge problem and I don't want to be a part of that game to the extent I am able to.
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May 29, 2021 17:42
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It's also fun seeing how some here don't understand that owning a house means owning a massive pile of debt. Minus the initial down payment, every penny of value the house has is negative value. A mortgages means a person owes the bank X dollars, plus interest and whatever other fees, because banks are in this to make money. Working class homeowners don't just have a savings account with $300,000 in it that they can dip into on a rainy day.
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May 29, 2021 17:49
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:New homeowners don't realize appreciated assets. That's most people's grandparents. In the last decade the cost of replacement or new construction offsets any change in value. Borrowing off of home equity is either a sign of wealth and stability or of circling the drain financially. My mortgage is going to be paid off in 7.5 years. I have 10-15 more years of being able to work like I am for the median wage. Then my kids will most likely have to live in it and I will die. Living the loving dream friend. How many new homeowners do you know who do not have parents or grandparents who are/were also homeowners? The point is that this is something that increasingly runs in families. You're able to buy a house if your parents have a house, because of the accumulation of wealth and income over years and generations, much of which stems from gradually increasing capital in your family's hands thanks to rising real estate prices. Parents can co-sign leases or mortgages, parents can loan money at low interest rates, parents can sell their homes and realize one-time windfalls, parents can die and leave their houses (or the value of their houses if they're sold upon death) to their children, who then use that money to buy their own houses, and so on. Even if homeowning parents don't do any of that while alive, their children can afford to make riskier financial decisions, like buying a new home without having the income to comfortably pay for it, because they know that they have the safety net of someday inheriting the value of their parents' home. Conversely, people whose parents have been renters their whole lives will never even have the opportunity to do any of that. They lack the intergenerational wealth transfer of real estate, and they will be poorer for their entire lives as a result. This is a major cause of economic inequality in Canada, just as it is in the United States where it's also a major cause of racial inequality (a lot of comfortable middle-class white people in the US today are that way because their working-class grandparents moved to whites-only suburbs in the 1950s and their real estate wealth has compounded over the following generations). If you've managed to buy a house without your parents owning homes, congratulations! But even the post you made here proves my point, because you've purchased a large appreciating asset that someday your children will inherit. Good for you and good for them, but the children of people who are fully priced out of the real estate market will never get to inherit a six-or-seven-figure asset the way your children will.
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May 29, 2021 17:52
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Fashionable Jorts posted:It's also fun seeing how some here don't understand that owning a house means owning a massive pile of debt. Minus the initial down payment, every penny of value the house has is negative value. A mortgages means a person owes the bank X dollars, plus interest and whatever other fees, because banks are in this to make money. everyone understands how mortgages work
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May 29, 2021 17:52
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:Those are really not analogous, but to give you an answer, I think that we give insurance companies free money to invest with as exchange for a service of providing coverage in case of calamity. You're dodging the question. Just because an asset's value is abstract doesn't mean that mere possession of it can't improve your life even before you realize its value in concrete terms. That's the entire premise of insurance.
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May 29, 2021 17:54
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Rutibex posted:everyone understands how mortgages work You sure about that? Because it really seems like that isn't the case here.
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May 29, 2021 17:55
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:The thing is I'm not confident the market is on a permanent upward trajectory. I think (I certainly hope) there'll be a crash to level out the playing field, and that the ordinary people wiped out or put underwater by that won't still be the subject of undue scorn. It's probably not but in the meantime (like, for many years probably), even if real market forces start to stagnate or even depress the housing market, the government is going to do everything in its power to ensure that it spends enormous amounts of money to try and keep it afloat, i.e.: giving people a chunk of money to improve the house itself, or offer certain tax breaks, or whatever. Like, I used to labour under the delusion that one day, magically, real estate would magically improve and that the government would intervene on behalf of Poors everywhere but it's becoming laughably obvious that's not the case. Again, I understand maybe like 10% of what's going on at any given time but I feel like the Canadian government has zeroed in on homes as a big factor in our economy and by the time it genuinely crashes enough to let a lot of people apply for homes, it'll be kind of meaningless by then.
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May 29, 2021 17:57
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I would like to formally apologize for posting the "buy your kid a house" image
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May 29, 2021 18:00
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vyelkin posted:How many new homeowners do you know who do not have parents or grandparents who are/were also homeowners? Yes, I agree with all of that.
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May 29, 2021 18:02
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PhilippAchtel posted:You're dodging the question. Just because an asset's value is abstract doesn't mean that mere possession of it can't improve your life even before you realize its value in concrete terms. That's the entire premise of insurance. Yes, that framing makes your point. I would agree
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May 29, 2021 18:02
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The two biggest problems as I see it are 1) people using housing as an investment vehicle, causing inflated prices and unaffordable housing. We know a lot of the solutions to this problem, like empty condo taxes, limits on the amount of homes you can own, etc. I know boomers who own a condo per child and have them listed as the owners even though they dont live there. theyre not even renting them out. this needs to stop 2) the lovely state of rentals. My wife and I rented for almost 20 years and the nicest place we lived in was an apartment from the 60s. I think its true that they dont build em like they used to, or rather, at all. No one builds apartments anymore, and definitely not affordable ones. I remember reading somewhere that the vast majority of Austrians live in government subsidised apartments, because theyre nice and theyre affordable. If we had decent affordable housing, fewer people would see taking on a shitload of debt to escape living in a slumlords basement as their only option. also semis. my grandparents immigrated and rented apartments, and when they saved enough they were able to buy a semi which they lived in forever until my grandmother got dementia and my grandfather died. they have pretty much retired semis in favour of detached homes since they sell for more a primate has issued a correction as of 18:15 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 18:07
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Fashionable Jorts posted:You sure about that? Because it really seems like that isn't the case here. yes, we do. the point about the value of the house appreciating year over year is particularly relevant here. you own a pile of debt that's worth more than you owe on it infernal machines has issued a correction as of 18:14 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 18:09
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Fashionable Jorts posted:It's also fun seeing how some here don't understand that owning a house means owning a massive pile of debt. Minus the initial down payment, every penny of value the house has is negative value. A mortgages means a person owes the bank X dollars, plus interest and whatever other fees, because banks are in this to make money. You just put the mortgage into reverse gear and bam, reverse mortgage. You've flipped from negative 300 to positive $300k so you actually made $600k, the full amount of which gets mailed to you as a cheque 
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May 29, 2021 18:09
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bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:I would like to formally apologize for posting the "buy your kid a house" image 
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May 29, 2021 18:12
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No don't
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May 29, 2021 18:13
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vyelkin posted:Conversely, people whose parents have been renters their whole lives will never even have the opportunity to do any of that. They lack the intergenerational wealth transfer of real estate, and they will be poorer for their entire lives as a result. This is a major cause of economic inequality in Canada, just as it is in the United States where it's also a major cause of racial inequality (a lot of comfortable middle-class white people in the US today are that way because their working-class grandparents moved to whites-only suburbs in the 1950s and their real estate wealth has compounded over the following generations). I think the usual counterargument here is that there's nothing stopping renters from saving/investing the difference and passing that on to the next generation in lieu of real estate. which conveniently ignores the renter's inability to convince a bank to lend them rent money. not to mention the government's insuring the owner's loan, which makes the leverage offered to would-be homeowners completely inaccessible in any other scenario. and the tax break when you sell your principal residence. and and and
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May 29, 2021 18:14
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also real-estate in general outperforming just about any other class of investment over the last couple decades
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May 29, 2021 18:16
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a primate posted:I lucked out and it’s a crime that the only thing separating a lot of “homeowners” from renters is luck. Hmm no sorry, being one of the few who got a good roll of the dice means your a class traitor and literally cannot ever face a struggle in your life again, since after all, you have infinite money to fall back onto now that will only infinitely grow for all eternity. My friend who got a $50k condo with his sister a month ago? Already has more wealth than Bezos.
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May 29, 2021 18:16
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https://www.nbc.ca/content/dam/bnc/en/rates-and-analysis/economic-analysis/housing-affordability.pdf 25 years to save a 10% down payment on a non-condo in toronto poo poo's fuckin wild Fashionable Jorts posted:Hmm no sorry, being one of the few who got a good roll of the dice means your a class traitor and literally cannot ever face a struggle in your life again, since after all, you have infinite money to fall back onto now that will only infinitely grow for all eternity. or you can stop being petulant and accept that yeah, you do in fact have a pretty solid advantage in life, by whatever means you acquired it.
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May 29, 2021 18:19
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I don't think owning a home makes someone an untouchable liberal, but in a society where the alternatives to home ownership are rent or homelessness. That's imputed rent which you earn even if you live in your asset, which in many countries is taxed as income. Add to this the very high expectation of appreciation of home value above interest rates, and you own private property. You are a private property haver. Now, we live in a society where security for your family is very hard to get outside private property ownership (one of the most corrosive aspects of our society actually), but it is what it is, and you have to admit the reality of your position in relation to others if you want to participate in the leftist project with any honesty.
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May 29, 2021 18:19
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Lol if you think your parents are going to leave you their home instead of selling everything that's not nailed down to fund their retirement
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May 29, 2021 18:22
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my parent doesn't own a home. or anything else actually. owning a home doesn't make you a class traitor, but it is a pretty significant class distinction that specifically feeds into expanding wealth disparity with those who do not.
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May 29, 2021 18:23
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PhilippAchtel posted:I don't think owning a home makes someone an untouchable liberal, but in a society where the alternatives to home ownership are rent or homelessness. That's imputed rent which you earn even if you live in your asset, which in many countries is taxed as income. How many Hail Marx's do I say in pennance for a home value of $200k in Alberta for a wage of $25/hour?
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May 29, 2021 18:23
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Tighclops posted:Lol if you think your parents are going to leave you their home instead of selling everything that's not nailed down to fund their retirement I remember reading a NYT article about the greatest generational wealth transfer and all I could think about is how much retirement homes cost lol
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May 29, 2021 18:24
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Tighclops posted:Lol if you think your parents are going to leave you their home instead of selling everything that's not nailed down to fund their retirement I've never had the inheritance chat with my parents and I'm not sure how to bring up that if they leave me anything at all, I'll be disappointed that they didn't spend it themselves
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May 29, 2021 18:26
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:How many Hail Marx's do I say in pennance for a home value of $200k in Alberta for a wage of $25/hour? none? i mean, i rent, but i live in a house. a couple blocks away people are living in tents in the park. i'm aware of the privilege i have but i don't go down there and apologize to them for it, because that's dumb
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May 29, 2021 18:27
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infernal machines posted:or you can stop being petulant and accept that yeah, you do in fact have a pretty solid advantage in life, by whatever means you acquired it. I could be mistaken, but he hasn't suggested his bootstraps got him where he is. No poo poo, we know. And we know how gently caress all you guys are. And I know how hosed I am compared to my parents generation. All those things can be true simultaneously.
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May 29, 2021 18:28
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they can be, and yet some folks seem to be getting real heated about the obvious being pointed out no one is suggesting home ownership is somehow a personal failing.
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May 29, 2021 18:29
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pokeyman posted:I think the usual counterargument here is that there's nothing stopping renters from saving/investing the difference and passing that on to the next generation in lieu of real estate. which conveniently ignores the renter's inability to convince a bank to lend them rent money. not to mention the government's insuring the owner's loan, which makes the leverage offered to would-be homeowners completely inaccessible in any other scenario. and the tax break when you sell your principal residence. and and and yeah the fact that policy intentionally shits on renters and favours homeowners in so many different ways, plus rising rents and shrinking incomes and so on and so on puts paid to that counterargument pretty easily imo
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May 29, 2021 18:31
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can I get a Canadian Home Owners Association gang tag?
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May 29, 2021 18:32
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infernal machines posted:none? i mean, i rent, but i live in a house. a couple blocks away people are living in tents in the park. i'm aware of the privilege i have but i don't go down there and apologize to them for it, because that's dumb I just wish we could direct our common ground towards meaningful change.
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May 29, 2021 18:34
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pokeyman posted:I've never had the inheritance chat with my parents and I'm not sure how to bring up that if they leave me anything at all, I'll be disappointed that they didn't spend it themselves I've wanted to ask my parents about this for a long time, but I know the answer will be, "you get the cats and the guns" so I haven't really bothered. I think a good way to do it would be, "Hey, so I don't know anything about life insurance or real estate or anything about anything. Do you guys have a will or anything, or do you know what I should do first after you pass away?" It's pretty reasonable. Even if you do know poo poo about anything, deaths always result in some kind of legal landmine, particularly if you have any very lovely family members. Believe me: I have a lot of experience with it. Killin_Like_Bronson posted:How many Hail Marx's do I say in pennance for a home value of $200k in Alberta for a wage of $25/hour? If you genuinely feel guilty about the fact that you live better than other people, maybe funnel your energy into helping your community in concrete ways. I'm serious. This goes for everyone else ITT who is also getting defensive about their homes, or lack thereof: every single one of us is doing better than someone, and you have the ability to do something real in your community, even little things.
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May 29, 2021 18:36
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:The thing is I'm not confident the market is on a permanent upward trajectory. I think (I certainly hope) there'll be a crash to level out the playing field, and that the ordinary people wiped out or put underwater by that won't still be the subject of undue scorn. Most people are bystanders to this and aren't scheming to profit off human misery like the actual architects of the system do. Have vs Have not is not such a simple distinction as "do they have this one thing y/n, no other aspects considered or examined" I made no mention of reverse mortgages. You can refinance your mortgage at your asset's appreciated value to take equity out. That is a regular mortgage, at regular rates. It happens all the time. This is real money. It seems like several "homeowners" in this thread are being either deliberately obtuse, or are actually financial illiterate enough to think there's no way to access capital in a house other than selling it. Yes, if your house loses value, you might become underwater on the mortage. But here's the thing. The government has all but gauranteed it's going to do whatever it takes to prop up the housing market. We can talk about realized vs unrealized gains, but what is the point of this? Is Jeff Bezos millions of shares in amazon worthless because he can't sell them all immediately? Because they're just on paper? No. That's ridiculous. Is your house's capital gains worthless because you don't want to access the equity right now? No. The average price of a house in Canada right now is over $700,000. How many people can afford this? Why should we be giving homeowners money? Why are we giving them windfall tax breaks on these gains? Enough with the crocodile tears.
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May 29, 2021 18:41
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the one guy in here saying he bought a home and he makes minimum wage making it seems he single handedly bought it on his own then making another post later saying his spouse had a good paying job lmao look its fine, Id love to own a home but dont try to lie saying being a home owner isnt immensely better than being a renter, its objectively much better and you have access to a lot more and more to give your kids if you have any
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May 29, 2021 18:43
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Going to stop the housing chat for a second but with the discovery of so many unmarked children's graves how long until everyone's favorite province and mine, dig up that loving RV park and find all our graves? Last story I can find about Brandon was 2018 so maybe they already di-hahahaha https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.ctvnews.ca/national/canada/2018/8/31/1_4076698.html
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May 29, 2021 18:45
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