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Chakan posted:There’s that one page rpg, NICE MARINES, about space marines trying to help normal people but their bodies are built for war. But yeah without a comedy feeling it would be exceptionally hard to convey that. i mean it's also the pitch for Lasers and Feelings, but Lasers and Feelings is a mediocre joke and a bad game
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May 28, 2021 21:14
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grassy gnoll posted:Did we watch the same Cowboy Bebop?
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May 28, 2021 23:02
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I don't think this got posted here, but fyi: There's a thread here for voting on if Traditional Games should be a top level forum
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May 28, 2021 23:35
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Yawgmoth posted:They're competent killers. Unfortunately for them, there's a little more to life than killing. Yeah, it's not usually the fighting part where they lose. It's stuff like their trauma, being outwitted, or in some cases still having humanity that leaves them short. Hell, struggles with poverty and the way a good score will leave you with just enough cash to get you to the next (and a bad score won't even cover its expenses) can certainly be adapted to a game and was a key part of Cowboy Bebop's episode structure, but I'd forgive someone for not immediately thinking of that as the show's takeaway or central theme.
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May 28, 2021 23:54
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This is not a case of something namedropping Cowboy Bebop with no context. The game explicitly tells you what parts of Cowboy Bebop it's inspired by, and it's not the part about them fighting bad guys:  (It's also not the point. The point is elfgamers having a tendency to assume that Shadowrun/CP2020 are representative of all cyberpunk, instead of one very specific type of cyberpunk story that happens to also be the most boring type.) Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 00:44 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 00:28
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Lemon-Lime posted:This is not a case of something namedropping Cowboy Bebop with no context. The game explicitly tells you what parts of Cowboy Bebop it's inspired by, and it's not the part about them fighting bad guys: Yeah, I'm not critiquing how HWI invokes Bebop. I'm just joking about how the protagonists look a lot like a typical cyberpunk RPG party. One of them is an ex-cop with a robot arm! I'd say elfgamers have a tendency in general to assume that their games about a particular genre fully represent the fiction of that genre. I think that's just a matter of exposure, and it's one of the reasons why I appreciate what HWI is doing with cyberpunk.
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May 29, 2021 01:11
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I think it also comes down to something I've talked about before about how combat is the easiest aspect of an RPG to run often as it's generally the part least reliant on actual role-playing, which most people honestly suck at actually doing
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May 29, 2021 02:25
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It really does amaze me how many people seem to really, really want a tabletop RPG that's all the things that a PC game does way better and more conveniently: "What I really want is to track every ounce and missile in my inventory, measure every step of movement, min-max statistics, metagame my build, announce my moves by exactly what they're called in the rulebook, and never, ever pretend I'm actually a different person... but I want to do this with dice, paper, and in the presence of other people." 
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May 29, 2021 02:39
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Also, combat probably has a full chapter of rules, persuading people probably had a paragraph
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May 29, 2021 02:39
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Imagined posted:in the presence of other people." it's this btw. it's not at all hard to understand why playing games with friends is more fun than paying them alone for a lot of people.
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May 29, 2021 02:47
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People play really elaborate hex and chit wargames, too. Some people just like doing all of those calculations and rolls manually, as Countblanc noted, with other people. Flow is their mode of immersion.
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May 29, 2021 02:50
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SkyeAuroline posted:I really, really hope this game works out and we finally land on something that's good and lasts. Sorry for venting. If it sucks maybe you can just hop onto discord with a couple goons for a quick palate cleansing game of Wizard's Grimoire or something. Edit: several episodes end up with the intended bounty dead, cowboy bebop is basically Nice Marines with gun-fu instead of chainsaws. PerniciousKnid fucked around with this message at 03:12 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 03:09
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PerniciousKnid posted:If it sucks maybe you can just hop onto discord with a couple goons for a quick palate cleansing game of Wizard's Grimoire or something. It's taken years of knowing folks to be even remotely comfortable doing RPGs with them. I'd have a hard time finding "jump directly in with strangers" to be any better. Setting aside bad experiences with doing the same in non ttrpg situations.
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May 29, 2021 03:32
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drrockso20 posted:I think it also comes down to something I've talked about before about how combat is the easiest aspect of an RPG to run often as it's generally the part least reliant on actual role-playing, which most people honestly suck at actually doing I don't think it's that combat is least reliant on actual role-playing, but that combat is where the vast majority of RPGs have focused their rules and codified PC roles.
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May 29, 2021 03:33
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Imagined posted:"What I really want is to track every ounce and missile in my inventory, measure every step of movement, min-max statistics, metagame my build, announce my moves by exactly what they're called in the rulebook, and never, ever pretend I'm actually a different person... but I want to do this with dice, paper, and in the presence of other people." Don’t forget “and I want to do it with a constant supply of new content from my buddies, rather than having a game just end or having a game editor that takes months to build anything that doesn’t look like rear end.”
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May 29, 2021 03:58
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combat is fun
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May 29, 2021 04:11
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Have fun game with game good, main metric should
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May 29, 2021 04:15
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I can have an emotional breakdown or destroy my interpersonal relationships anytime I want. I cannot sword fight a dragon so that's why I appreciate robust combat systems.
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May 29, 2021 17:18
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What are some role playing games with good, board gamey mini games that aren't combat? Shardix's mentality is similar to my own, but also, for most games, combat is the part that's the crunchy, interactive, gamey part. Which is the part I want. Ars Magicka is a little too solitaire. Red Markets is a little too depressing. Even optimistic, relationship-centered, narrative games like Flying Circus put the game in the combat. What's a good, crunchy game where the meatiest chapter is for something other than fighting?
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May 29, 2021 17:46
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Pocky In My Pocket posted:Also, combat probably has a full chapter of rules, persuading people probably had a paragraph Nailed it. A game is about what its rules cover, usually in exact proportion to their pagecount, and any fruitful voids they contain.
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May 29, 2021 18:22
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Kestral posted:Nailed it. A game is about what its rules cover, usually in exact proportion to their pagecount, and any fruitful voids they contain. FWIW, Hard Wired Island nails it fairly well then. Out of the ~120 player facing mechanics pages, about half is character creation and options, 5-10 are basic mechanics, and the rest is an even split of social, hacking (slightly shorter because they work much like the social rules), and combat. Roughly equal depth given to each. It's one of the things that really did impress me.
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May 29, 2021 18:41
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I'm very impressed with games like HWI where combat is complex enough to be interesting but not a totally separate and much more complicated subsystem than everything else. I could probably think of more examples if I wasn't phoneposting.
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May 29, 2021 19:39
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CitizenKeen posted:What are some role playing games with good, board gamey mini games that aren't combat? Shardix's mentality is similar to my own, but also, for most games, combat is the part that's the crunchy, interactive, gamey part. Which is the part I want. 3e, because the biggest chapters are spells! In all honesty, I'd look at Pathfinder 2e, which has really strong involved skill rules and subsystems built off of them. This is the big subsystems chapter http://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1187
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May 29, 2021 19:54
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CitizenKeen posted:What are some role playing games with good, board gamey mini games that aren't combat? Shardix's mentality is similar to my own, but also, for most games, combat is the part that's the crunchy, interactive, gamey part. Which is the part I want. Pendragons 'Book of Feasts' is a fantastic supplement about throwing lavish parties, with modifiers for varying levels of drunkenness, what offends hosts and your lord, etc.
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May 29, 2021 19:56
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I also gotta say part of the advantage of a TTRPG vs nearly any video game is that the TTRPG is going to be incredibly responsive to what you do, compared to any video game. I don't even mean in the 'I want a TTRPG that can do anything anywhere' kind of way, I just mean that even a video game that's highly open (I just finished Dishonored for one example of a more-options-than-average game), you're going to quite frequently run into solutions that feel like they should work and then just...they do nothing. No response at all. Even if the general type of game you're playing is very similar to a video game with tracking bullets and so on, the TTRPG version is going to have a much more open-ended set of responses to what the player does. Probably much much slower in terms of "bullets per second" or what have you, but it is going to tolerate a lot of solutions that are simply too time consuming to account for in a video game (in terms of programming and modelling and bug-checking and so on). I do tend to prefer less-combat in my TTRPGs and that's partially because I play a decent amount of WOD and think WOD combat kind of bites, but mostly because I feel kind of over-sated on violence. Just feels more satisfying and novel to sneak or con or argue my way through a problem rather than just killing everyone. But that's just me as a person.
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May 29, 2021 20:35
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Are there any RPGs that use mechanics that are more typically associated with board games?
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May 29, 2021 20:36
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Haystack posted:Are there any RPGs that use mechanics that are more typically associated with board games? Check this out for a really fun combination of the two http://tenfootpolemic.blogspot.com/2017/05/flee-snakes-ladders-chase-mechanics.html
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May 29, 2021 20:48
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Haystack posted:Are there any RPGs that use mechanics that are more typically associated with board games? Dread is probably the big one here since the resolution mechanic is Jenga.
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May 30, 2021 01:21
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Are there any RPGs that use tactical social rules on par with DnD combat? Presumably being fought on a more abstract battlefield, but still incorporating tactical decision-making? The closest I can think of is Torchbearer.
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May 30, 2021 02:03
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PerniciousKnid posted:Are there any RPGs that use tactical social rules on par with DnD combat? Presumably being fought on a more abstract battlefield, but still incorporating tactical decision-making? The closest I can think of is Torchbearer. Didn't Burning Wheel have its social conflict system basically mirror its combat system? And I think at least one edition of Exalted did something similar.
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May 30, 2021 02:53
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Didn't Burning Wheel have its social conflict system basically mirror its combat system? Yeah but it's not really what I think of as tactical.
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May 30, 2021 02:56
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I'm not familiar enough with BW to comment there, but Exalted 2nd Edition's "social combat" fukken sucked and were barely even within sniper range of being "tactical." Exalted 3rd Edition's social influence rules* seem a little more interesting and less onerously stupid, but they're ultimately not all that complex (for Exalted) and not what I'd call "tactical" either. * Whatever they're called. I don't recall if readers and future authors were considered worthy of grasping a singular useful name for the subsystem, or if it's a natural language Christmas surprise whether or not someone's talking about the social influence rules or something else depending on how clear a given reference might be.
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May 30, 2021 03:04
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Honestly I'm not very familiar with either system, so I was shooting from the hip.
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May 30, 2021 03:11
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Burning Wheel actually had a pretty decent social system, the Duel of Wits, in that it never really let you roll to convince the other guy; you just rolled to convince the people watching that you'd won the argument.
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May 30, 2021 03:18
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Honestly I'm not very familiar with either system, so I was shooting from the hip. The highest of high crimes, when Nerd Opinions are about.
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May 30, 2021 03:18
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Didn't Burning Wheel have its social conflict system basically mirror its combat system? Burning Wheel's Duel of Wits system is a detailed affair of choosing three arguments from a list of seven in secret and then exchanging each of the three arguments with the opposition's three, in turn, with each of the seven types of argument having special rules and interactions with the opposing arguments. All to chip away the strength of the opposition's argument until they're at no argument-HP left, at which point you compare relative argument-HP totals to see how many concessions you have to make to the opposition's line of argument. It's interesting, and explicitly called out as only working for certain kind of arguments. It's not for convincing someone to let you borrow their cell phone, it's for having forum argument about whether someone you meet on the street should be morally obliged to hand you their cell phone.
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May 30, 2021 03:26
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PerniciousKnid posted:Are there any RPGs that use tactical social rules on par with DnD combat? Presumably being fought on a more abstract battlefield, but still incorporating tactical decision-making? The closest I can think of is Torchbearer. Spellbound Kingdoms' social combat is what leaps to mind. The ruleset isn't as complex as DnD's (or even SK's own combat), but the social combat does have well defined mechanics, several good reasons for the players to interact with it (including the fact that most antagonists are literally unkillable until you've sufficiently demoralized them), and generally has a fair few options to add tactical depth. It also allows for one of my favorite pieces of player gear, which I'm just going to quote in its entirety: quote:Gem-encrusted tortoise, portrait tortoise, kidnapped or orphaned wizard's familiar, clockwork canary
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May 30, 2021 03:26
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Robin Laws's Hero Wars/HeroQuest system has generic "conflict resolution" systems where the rules are the same whether you're skirmishing with bandits or arguing a legal case or trying to disarm a ticking bomb. His Dying Earth RPG has an entire subsystem for convincing people of things that is a replication of the combat system except with words instead of weapons. I think the evolution of that rulest in Skullduggery does away with physical combat altogether. His Dramasystem rules are pure, well, drama - everything breaks down into 'scenes' where someone sets the stakes and someone else introduces the conflict. Fiasco is another RPG where combat doesn't get its own system.
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May 30, 2021 03:59
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Scion 2E's social, crafting/wondermaking and investigatory mechanics are perhaps less beefy than the combat system but they're comparable. I'm not sure what Scion 1E had; probably a picture of a dog.
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May 30, 2021 06:23
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PerniciousKnid posted:Are there any RPGs that use tactical social rules on par with DnD combat? Presumably being fought on a more abstract battlefield, but still incorporating tactical decision-making? The closest I can think of is Torchbearer. Let Thrones Beware is explicitly this, but it is ... not finished.
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May 30, 2021 17:03
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