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Mans posted:And if you're Germany, you can receive a poo poo rank design, sat that it's poo poo and you don't want anything to do with it but it turns out 2k are already in production. Ideally the way it should work is rather than a black box with a number indicating "number of factories" you actually have specific factories with their own bonuses and modifiers under the province menu that you give orders to. Which might more easily model these production operational differences between the different countries. You're heavily incentivized to min-max and simply produce the best tank and only one design. But if it were a little more indirect, like you "Order 500 Tiger I's" from the Berlin Tank Factory and then only get 483 at the due date; and you're paying a subsidy anyways so unless you give a specific order they'll invent their own designs and produce them to try to sell to you; so you're incentivized to take the designs they give, with a bonus to modify the designs/send them back for refit if you need a change with a modifier that makes this desireable with this system. With the Soviets you can have the ability to just say "Produce me T-34's forever" with a gearing bonus that reduces cost and increases production efficiency if you don't fiddle with the design but you can alleviate this by planning ahead and introducing planned improvements to the design for future production blocks. e: The end result basically is Germany being able to like outproduce the USSR in tanks is fixed but in a way that isn't obvious to the player and they feel in control but with "challenges" they can gradually work to overcome i.e like when Speer takes over armaments production and massively boosts German production in 1944ish and introduce more "Fordist" production techniques at the cost of political power to wrangle the major military-industrial firms (Krupp, Porsche, etc) into line. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 16:45 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 16:43
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A veritable Burgess Shale of stupid military hardware.
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May 27, 2021 18:37
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Ghirens Greed had a thing where you would get a couple free mechs from any new design you researched, this was pretty good because you'd get to test stuff out before cranking out a lot of them, and also because you got to use silly and stupid poo poo you'd never build normally because you had some anyways
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May 27, 2021 21:02
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In Vic2's Historical Project Mod, how is China in that? I remember people years back posting about how a successful vanilla China campaign always devolves into endless rebel stomping, where if you failed protecting a single province; events would kick off ruining you in some way. Are there any other mods I should look at?
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May 29, 2021 13:04
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MuffinsAndPie posted:In Vic2's Historical Project Mod, how is China in that? I remember people years back posting about how a successful vanilla China campaign always devolves into endless rebel stomping, where if you failed protecting a single province; events would kick off ruining you in some way. Are there any other mods I should look at? IIRC near the turn of the century the "warlord era" begins. The china that you have been playing as will almost certainly be far too weak to reconquer the other breakaway states, but since ironman mode doesn't exist for this game you can just switch to one of the warlord tags and try to reunite china that way. Also, there are lots of scripted events for the UK and Russia to kick your poo poo in during the early game. It's not an easy campaign.
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May 29, 2021 18:40
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I think the warlord era kicks off the moment you civilize, just as an extra "gently caress you", but I don't really remember.
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May 29, 2021 19:36
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I save-scum for infamy anyways, so I'll probably do the tag switch thing. Or maybe do a game in India, so i can have my weternizing with my civil warring. I just want a game where the POPs the country makes in a week is equal the total population of most countries.
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May 30, 2021 14:44
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yeah the thing with china in v2, and especially in all the random v2 mods, is that china is fundamentally massively broken so you end up having to try to balance it by not letting china literally break the game as soon as it presses westernize.
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May 30, 2021 15:48
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Sampatrick posted:yeah the thing with china in v2, and especially in all the random v2 mods, is that china is fundamentally massively broken so you end up having to try to balance it by not letting china literally break the game as soon as it presses westernize. vicky kinda struggles with showing the kind of modernization china engaged in- they got plenty of modern arms but since modernization was such a decentralized scheme, it pretty much led the provincial governors to be warlords(it also somewhat struggles with the US federal system)
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May 30, 2021 16:22
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MuffinsAndPie posted:In Vic2's Historical Project Mod, how is China in that? I remember people years back posting about how a successful vanilla China campaign always devolves into endless rebel stomping, where if you failed protecting a single province; events would kick off ruining you in some way. Are there any other mods I should look at? If it's the mod I'm thinking about from 10 years ago, the correct way to play China was to let the breakup happen and play as one of the warlords and piece poo poo back together.
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May 30, 2021 19:29
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Panzeh posted:vicky kinda struggles with showing the kind of modernization china engaged in- they got plenty of modern arms but since modernization was such a decentralized scheme, it pretty much led the provincial governors to be warlords(it also somewhat struggles with the US federal system) I am curious how they are going to handle this in Vicky 3 since it's been a known problem area of Vicky 2 for ages (which is why basically every big mod tries to do something with China). A player controlled China in Vicky 2 basically just goes from the struggling 19th century Chinese empire to the economic and military superpower of modern day China, skipping all the steps in between.
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May 31, 2021 01:57
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I am curious how they are going to handle this in Vicky 3 since it's been a known problem area of Vicky 2 for ages (which is why basically every big mod tries to do something with China). A player controlled China in Vicky 2 basically just goes from the struggling 19th century Chinese empire to the economic and military superpower of modern day China, skipping all the steps in between. You can do this in hoi4 too which is also really fun
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May 31, 2021 02:36
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Tomn posted:ACTUALLY I think you'll find that EvW was canceled because Paradox was afraid of it competing with and outperforming the upcoming HoI4. Remember when the developers were more interested in getting people to send in pictures they want to use for ideological leaders of different countries then they were about making a workable game? I'm sure that set off some red flags at Paradox. Tomn posted:This all happened shortly after Magna Mundi went under so there was a pretty fair population of angry conspiracy theorists out there at the time. Wasn't it like a year or 2 after it got cancelled that Ubik released it under the name "World Stage" and got into a legal fight with Paradox?
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May 31, 2021 03:01
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*men shoveling my worldly possessions into a furnace* "What do you think he meant, 'The Carnival of Lust'?"
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May 31, 2021 04:02
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I am curious how they are going to handle this in Vicky 3 since it's been a known problem area of Vicky 2 for ages (which is why basically every big mod tries to do something with China). A player controlled China in Vicky 2 basically just goes from the struggling 19th century Chinese empire to the economic and military superpower of modern day China, skipping all the steps in between. A refurbished/more developed substate system could go a long way where its the individual provinces/regional governors pursuing modernization at the expense of the central governments authority and influence; you can try to reign them in and slow down your development, or let it continue but risk civil war as the governors build a power base separate from the national army. On the other hand if you're able to carefully tread the line you can develop in term to defend your borders and keep Japan and Russia off of you.
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May 31, 2021 05:55
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I am curious how they are going to handle this in Vicky 3 since it's been a known problem area of Vicky 2 for ages (which is why basically every big mod tries to do something with China). A player controlled China in Vicky 2 basically just goes from the struggling 19th century Chinese empire to the economic and military superpower of modern day China, skipping all the steps in between. it's traditional in paradox games for a player china to exist to completely break the game
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May 31, 2021 13:14
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Aren't all the PDX games where china is split into warlords/substates banned in China?
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May 31, 2021 19:11
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VostokProgram posted:Aren't all the PDX games where china is split into warlords/substates banned in China? I -think- HOI4 isn’t, but not sure.
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May 31, 2021 20:35
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I am curious how they are going to handle this in Vicky 3 since it's been a known problem area of Vicky 2 for ages (which is why basically every big mod tries to do something with China). A player controlled China in Vicky 2 basically just goes from the struggling 19th century Chinese empire to the economic and military superpower of modern day China, skipping all the steps in between. One of the things they’ve talked about is how governments including the player, are limited in how many policies / institutions they can support by bureaucratic points generated by bureaucrats employed by the government. There’s a soft cap from the cost of employing them and the number of bureaucrat pops, and it sounds like there may be a harder cap as well. Due to its population size, policies and institutions in China will be very expensive, limiting its ability to develop. They speculated it should be impossible to achieve high literacy as China by the end of the game due to this. So I think part of China’s limit is this—it won’t be feasible to rapidly develop China into a superpower.
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May 31, 2021 20:45
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Weird way to do that given east Asia has traditionally had much higher literacy rates than western world
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May 31, 2021 20:47
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Yeah, that's a very strange way of modeling things that doesn't really get at the real reason why China might've fallen behind European countries in literacy (internal strife and a very spread-out rural population). Geography has to play a factor here. Providing services to rural populations should be considerably more expensive than urban populations.
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May 31, 2021 21:01
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China's terrain would also be relatively unreceptive towards rail transportation thanks to the amount of hills, mountains and rivers there.
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May 31, 2021 21:27
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Yeah, that's a very strange way of modeling things that doesn't really get at the real reason why China might've fallen behind European countries in literacy (internal strife and a very spread-out rural population). Geography has to play a factor here. Providing services to rural populations should be considerably more expensive than urban populations. Gaius Marius posted:Weird way to do that given east Asia has traditionally had much higher literacy rates than western world
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May 31, 2021 21:47
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Triple A posted:China's terrain would also be relatively unreceptive towards rail transportation thanks to the amount of hills, mountains and rivers there. The rivers and canal systems are a huge part of China's historical infrastructure and facilitate an ungodly amount of China's internal trade even today.
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May 31, 2021 21:48
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Gaius Marius posted:Weird way to do that given east Asia has traditionally had much higher literacy rates than western world Literacy rates in China, pre revolution, were not high. The research quoted in the article pegs literacy at 10-15% in the late 1940s, which would have been by far the highest at any point up until that date. Compare that with the US: (80% literacy in 1870; 97% by 1947). Written Chinese is bastard hard to learn, and was a class/status thing throughout most of Chinese history.
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May 31, 2021 23:49
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Beefeater1980 posted:Literacy rates in China, pre revolution, were not high. The research quoted in the article pegs literacy at 10-15% in the late 1940s, which would have been by far the highest at any point up until that date. On the other hand if we look at Japan, it's literacy rate was much higher, higher than many western nations, around 60%.
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May 31, 2021 23:51
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Raenir Salazar posted:On the other hand if we look at Japan, it's literacy rate was much higher, higher than many western nations, around 60%. that depends on how you define literacy. iirc in japan being able to write your own name was considered being literate lol
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Jun 1, 2021 00:01
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Beefeater1980 posted:Literacy rates in China, pre revolution, were not high. The research quoted in the article pegs literacy at 10-15% in the late 1940s, which would have been by far the highest at any point up until that date. Read the article you posted bud.
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Jun 1, 2021 00:06
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Jeoh posted:that depends on how you define literacy. iirc in japan being able to write your own name was considered being literate lol I've seen this in some places but its easy to see some indirect evidence that Japan was probably considerably more literate based off of policies, the number of schools, and so on.
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Jun 1, 2021 00:09
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Gaius Marius posted:Read the article you posted bud. The actual statements aren't that much different as far as representation in vicky is concerned, "10-15% in 1900" vs "10-15% in 1940" still suggest a rather low rate in 1836.
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Jun 1, 2021 00:52
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reignonyourparade posted:The actual statements aren't that much different as far as representation in vicky is concerned, "10-15% in 1900" vs "10-15% in 1940" still suggest a rather low rate in 1836. 70 years though is a hell of a long time with several major conflicts for a decline in literacy to have occurred. Especially in a country with multiple different languages but only one written language.
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Jun 1, 2021 01:20
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reignonyourparade posted:The actual statements aren't that much different as far as representation in vicky is concerned, "10-15% in 1900" vs "10-15% in 1940" still suggest a rather low rate in 1836. I actually have to apologize to the Beefeater, I misread the article they posted. That said their and your point are total bullshit. The Literacy rate in 1950 means jack when the entire region has undergone 100 years of War, Revolution, Civil War, Warlords, Famine, Floods, Occupation and Exploitation. https://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/cgi-bin/moreabout.pl?tyimuh=chineseliteracy The Paper cited in this is paywalled but the refrences will do fine. One we see Literacy in Pre Republican Revolution China was quite high, Two people will use quote like "This group included the fully literate members of the elite and, on the opposite pole, those knowing only a few hundred characters" to call the literacy statistics bullshit, which isn't really true. If we take it and interpret it in a western mindset 100 Char's is very low, not literate. If we however understand how Chinese works you realize 100 Char's is Thousands upon Thousands of words, easily enough to comprehend, analyze, and discuss your world state.
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Jun 1, 2021 01:28
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I think a fantasy GSG from Paradox needs to do what Stellaris refused to and smash everything as a normal part of play. Let it have phases of play that exist to generate the new state of play for the next round rather than to be won. Character died? Yes, and? Of course they're walking around, they died a long time ago, that was like, three games in a series ago.
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Jun 1, 2021 01:36
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Big Hubris posted:I think a fantasy GSG from Paradox needs to do what Stellaris refused to and smash everything as a normal part of play. Let it have phases of play that exist to generate the new state of play for the next round rather than to be won. I'm sorry but I literally can't understand what you're saying
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Jun 1, 2021 01:52
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VostokProgram posted:I'm sorry but I literally can't understand what you're saying You know those games where you start with a campfire and eventually you're managing a whole civilization with the gameplay mechanics gradually changing overtime? Ever play that universal paperclip optimizer game?
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Jun 1, 2021 02:03
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Big Hubris posted:I think a fantasy GSG from Paradox needs to do what Stellaris refused to and smash everything as a normal part of play. Let it have phases of play that exist to generate the new state of play for the next round rather than to be won. I VostokProgram posted:I'm sorry but I literally can't understand what you're saying Imagine you start the game, then you truly start the game. Such as you are starting the game, in each phase as much as possible you should be present to understand that. When each phase starts you start as in each person starts simultaneously, each player simultaneously starting, and dying, at each point of each phase in turns, Simultaneous
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Jun 1, 2021 02:06
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Gaius Marius posted:I actually have to apologize to the Beefeater, I misread the article they posted. That said their and your point are total bullshit. The Literacy rate in 1950 means jack when the entire region has undergone 100 years of War, Revolution, Civil War, Warlords, Famine, Floods, Occupation and Exploitation. Yeah, for perspective the first postwar elementary corpus in Japan, roughly corresponding to the compulsory and public-funded education years prewar in what was considered a developed and fully literate great power, weighed in at 881 characters. Chinese with a corpus of a few hundred characters would certainly have been limited in pursuits like history and literature without some sort of further instruction, though not necessarily as much so as one would think given that the rarer or more technical a character is the more likely it is to be part or all of its own rebus, but I'd have a hard time calling that command of written Chinese more limiting than the ~1500 significantly less combinable English words used in VoA broadcasts or the ~875 used in ASD Simplified Technical English--and those are considered enough, respectively, to agitate for the spread of modern liberalism or to work in arms manufacturing. That said, literacy's being used as a proxy for mass technical and western-philosophical education, is it not? Maybe the best solution is to just give the Qing a more reasonable literacy rate but a strong malus to its effect unless education reforms have somehow been pushed through, or conversely to choose a different proxy for the whole world.
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Jun 1, 2021 02:27
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Raenir Salazar posted:You know those games where you start with a campfire and eventually you're managing a whole civilization with the gameplay mechanics gradually changing overtime? Ever play that universal paperclip optimizer game? The only games I've ever played that I felt successfully pulled off the "the scope of the game expands as the player gains in skill and resources" concept are the X-series of space sims. You typically start in a single cheap craft of some sort. The initial gameplay consists of personally flying your ship as you either trade or take on combat missions. Eventually you make enough money to buy additional ships. Now you're spending less time personally flying and doing missions and more time managing your fleet of traders/miners/pirates. Of course this activity brings in even more money, so now you start to dabble in building your own basic factories in space where you see profitable gaps in the supply chain. Now you're spending time managing your factories, setting sell prices for finished goods and buy prices for components as the market fluctuates. Over time your trade/pirate fleets and your space factories make so much money that you start to build enormous factory complexes, turning basic raw materials into advanced ship weapons and shields and ultimately, your own ships. You haven't even personally flown a ship in weeks now, you've been assembling your own navy of massive capital ships and carriers, accompanied by hundreds of fighter craft so that you can take on one (or more) of the spacefaring 'nation-states' and claim their space territory as your own. Nicodemus Dumps fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Jun 1, 2021 |
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Jun 1, 2021 02:36
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Yeah, that's a very strange way of modeling things that doesn't really get at the real reason why China might've fallen behind European countries in literacy (internal strife and a very spread-out rural population). Geography has to play a factor here. Providing services to rural populations should be considerably more expensive than urban populations. But most of the US at the beginning of the game is rural, receives no services, and yet is highly literate.
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Jun 1, 2021 03:08
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Gaius Marius posted:Read the article you posted bud. ? Literacy was low in China, by global standards, until the 1949 revolution. Partly because literacy is difficult to achieve compared with alphabetic languages and partly because it was an elite pastime closely connected with entry into the scholar-official class. This is what I said and it’s what the article said, unless I’m missing something. E: oh ok I see your update. Going by some article I found on Netease, in the late Qing, 30-45% of men and 2-10% of women (!) could read, and in the Republican period for the reasons you stated that collapsed so badly that only 5% of the population could read Three Kingdoms. By the same article, Japan seems to have been off the charts, although that’s partly alphabetised. I’ve been told that Korean writing is super well designed for fast learning but not sure about there. Chinese writing is still extremely hard to learn compared with most other writing systems, and even more so before simplified was introduced. I still have flashbacks to learning the fanti for “salt” 鹽 and that’s before you get into poo poo like “biang”, which is so loving insane that my browser refuses to display it in a line of text. Beefeater1980 fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Jun 1, 2021 |
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Jun 1, 2021 10:03
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