|
i just think that regardless of jones' reaction, or the shadowboys looming, or the hopeful setup panel between annie and kat just before the monologue, that this entire chapter is intended to be taken seriously at face value. tom is a very talented artist, and wouldn't use something as heavy handed as "staring directly at the audience while speaking" to mean anything other than what is said. i would be genuinely disappointed to find out that anything she said in this monologue was not truly how she felt. if she was lying to jones, then portraying it this way is only misleading for the audience. if she's lying to herself, the post-chapter continues to be misleading. there MUST be something else going on otherwise the first 3 things i mentioned would simply not have happened, but they can't be used to say this chapter is anything other than a ringing endorsement from tom into the way she's acting. i had no idea about tom's relationship with his father other than reading this thread, but even completely disregarding that, it can't be taken any other way. my problem with it is that this is a TERRIBLE coping mechanism for someone who is still living with the parent that neglected and then abused her. "i guess he just can't help it when he hurts me" is a truly heartbreaking thing to see in anyone, especially a child with their parent.
|
#
?
May 29, 2021 19:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 06:01 |
|
|
Niavmai posted:my problem with it is that this is a TERRIBLE coping mechanism for someone who is still living with the parent that neglected and then abused her. "i guess he just can't help it when he hurts me" is a truly heartbreaking thing to see in anyone, especially a child with their parent. It's also pretty bad advice for people suffering from anxiety. "There's not anything you can do to improve your condition, just hope people deal with it!" Of course "accept someone for who they are" is a good message, and not all anxiety can be / needs to be cured. That being said, if someone is suffering from severe enough anxiety that they shut down when attempting to speak with their daughter, they probably need to seek help to learn how best to handle the situation. "Just hope your daughter learns to accept you!" is bad advice.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2021 20:03
|
|
|
I think, the problem is that the statement he can't help but act this way is fine, because that's true. However, a healthy reaction is for Annie to then establish firm boundaries with him about what's okay (assuming she wants him in her life), standing by him no matter what is falling into a cycle of abuse. If that turns out to be where it ends up going...this chapter would still just be bad because it was long and boring for no good reason.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2021 21:25
|
|
|
Bleck posted:"I read the words the guy said and decided that he intends the opposite of what the words said" Nice straw man, but what text do you think I turned around here? "Thank you for reading this chapter about a girl trying to understand a crummy guy." Taken at its most literal, that simply closes out the chapter with a simplified summary of events. There's no explicit value judgement on their relationship. There's a minor judgement call about Tony himself, but "crummy" is an extremely weak condemnation. This did nothing to shift my opinion of how the story was framing Annie's choices regarding her father. I read this as simply moving on from their relationship as the main focus. None of this contradicts the text.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 00:01
|
|
|
Astribulus posted:Nice straw man, this is an excellent way to signal me to not read the rest of the post, thank you
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 00:56
|
|
|
Cavelcade posted:I think, the problem is that the statement he can't help but act this way is fine, because that's true. However, a healthy reaction is for Annie to then establish firm boundaries with him about what's okay (assuming she wants him in her life), standing by him no matter what is falling into a cycle of abuse. I think a simpler way of stating this is that the problem with the way the comic approaches the issue is that it makes it all about Annie and Tony, and ignores that the people around them can and should intervene to protect Antimony.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 01:04
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:I think a simpler way of stating this is that the problem with the way the comic approaches the issue is that it makes it all about Annie and Tony, and ignores that the people around them can and should intervene to protect Antimony. perhaps the comic is, you know, trying to make a statement about this very thing, 
Bleck fucked around with this message at 01:26 on May 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 01:22
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:I think a simpler way of stating this is that the problem with the way the comic approaches the issue is that it makes it all about Annie and Tony, and ignores that the people around them can and should intervene to protect Antimony. It's an all too common phenomenon in real life that family, friends, acquaintances, and strangers recognize an abusive domestic situation and choose to do nothing about it. They tell themselves that it's none of their business, or maybe they're overreacting, or maybe they make excuses for the abuser. Maybe they just make pitying noises for the abused and decide that feeling bad for someone else is enough and they don't need to do anything else. Maybe they'll get mad about it and rant about the situation to their peers and shun the abuser but do nothing to help the victim. In any event, the most common outcome is that people abrogate their duty to intervene. Doing the right thing is just too hard.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 01:34
|
|
|
A.o.D. posted:Maybe they just make pitying noises for the abused and decide that feeling bad for someone else is enough and they don't need to do anything else. Maybe they'll get mad about it and rant about the situation to their peers and shun the abuser but do nothing to help the victim. maybe they'll go online and try their best to intervene in a fictional relationship
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 01:38
|
|
|
Bleck posted:maybe they'll go online and try their best to intervene in a fictional relationship All I know for sure is that if I'm ever in danger of freezing to death, I can find a fresh hot take on SA.com about addiction, mental illness, or domestic abuse and I'm guaranteed to make it through the winter.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 01:45
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:Put me down as one who hasn't interpreted this depiction as endorsement. I don't think the problem with this chapter is a moral one. Bongo Bill as always with the correct takes. Including your previous post.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 02:07
|
|
|
if i were there i'd totally know what to say to tony to totally own him and also help him be better
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 02:10
|
|
|
honestly the more time the comic spends on tony the worse the donlans end up looking. like you know this guy. you get how horrible he is with others. and you decided to do jack poo poo about his daughter who he abandoned?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 02:13
|
|
|
The best we can do is support her as parents of her friend and as friends. Be cause ah jeez *hang wrings* it's Tony, he's so dificult, how would we even, its just so sad, about Surma, and aw dang, shes mostly doing fine, Jimmy Jims is also sort of looking after her, and her friends are good people, golly jee, it should all be OK. Actually scratch that, never EVER let me see you post disparaging the Donlans, who are the best people in the comic.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 02:23
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:honestly the more time the comic spends on tony the worse the donlans end up looking. he did gently caress his wife literally to death. 
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 02:26
|
|
|
coolusername posted:Kat and Annie doing mystery adventures together This is what I, and I think most people, actually want
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 02:51
|
|
|
Twenty Four posted:This is what I, and I think most people, actually want But the whole point is they, and the comic, have grown past that.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 03:12
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:honestly the more time the comic spends on tony the worse the donlans end up looking. they didnt do jack poo poo though, they told Kat to try to be her friend and have been around the whole time trying to watch out for her and help her. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 03:19 on May 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 03:14
|
|
|
A big flaming stink posted:honestly the more time the comic spends on tony the worse the donlans end up looking. Donlan's okay, he really helped Annie through that time her dad cracked that wall with psychic energy. Eglamores kind of crummy though. From a certain perspective it's someone like a social worker, investigator, etc, getting an incomplete take on a complicated situation. Like Rashomon! Or Columbo. There's stuff that the detective character, and reader/observer is reading into about the characters, stories, perspectives, biases, etc. So, note on Annie's blocking: She's turned away for the camera, or her face is cut off, when she's talking about how she hates her father. When she says she doesn't care, the camera is at a dutch angle.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 06:11
|
|
|
FunkyAl posted:Donlan's okay, he really helped Annie through that time her dad cracked that wall with psychic energy. Eglamores kind of crummy though. Eglamore is probably wise to keep some distance. Jones actually points this out to him with some absolutely brutal deadpan humor: https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=476 I don't think that's were things were going, but given his own relationship with her parents, moving into too close a parental role would be inappropriate. He might well fall in love with Annie as a surrogate daughter and while that could be wonderful in the correct situation, it was not the hand he was dealt. It's also been shown and pointed out multiple times that Jimmy has a similar difficulty to Tony's when it comes to seeing Annie and Surma as entirely separate entities, so there might even be some possibility of him having to struggle with romantic feelings as she got older as well. I don't think Jimmy would act on that sort of feeling, but I do think he understands that neither he or Annie need that poo poo. A lot of being a good person in this sort of situation isn't being some moral paragon who doesn't have inappropriate feelings. It's also a matter of recognizing when an avoidable situation could potentially lead to developing inappropriate feelings and avoiding that level or type of involvement. If the situation is not avoidable you're essentially still in the same boat, its just that establishing and respecting appropriate boundaries becomes even more important.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 06:31
|
|
|
Pyre File posted:But the whole point is they, and the comic, have grown past that. I think that's my problem, then. Annie and Kat was like... the heart and emotional core of the comic? To me, at least. Two friends becoming best friends, learning to like each other, learning to support each other, struggling with both weird mystery poo poo like a ghost sword lady and godlike incel mystery cult, but also perfectly normal things like 'I cheated homework off my smarter friend' and 'How do I support my friend who's got family issues' and 'We're becoming adults and getting into relationships etc. that could separate us, how do we stay friends?' which you can relate to. I cared about the mysteries because I cared about the characters, and where they were going, and how they were going to deal with it. And my slow degrade of enjoyment can probably be directly put up against a spreadsheet of them separating starting from Annie repeating the year, and them slowly becoming more passive, reactive characters who just have things happen to them rather than them doing things together - Zimmy does things to them, the Norns explain things to them, the dad is crummy and the school has dark plans to them. They're not out there, being friends, pushing the plot - the plot just keeps happening to them, or being solved for them. And not just this chapter, it's been over a year of this happening? It's not Tony by itself that's making me stop after gosh like ten years of diligently checking every M-W-F, it's the entire change of what the comic is.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 06:50
|
|
|
Hodgepodge posted:Eglamore is probably wise to keep some distance. Jones actually points this out to him with some absolutely brutal deadpan humor: You know what that's fair. HOWEVER, as an educator he should at least be active and alert in that capacity. Like, talking to Tony in the teacher's lounge.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 07:04
|
|
|
“Carver can you explain what, exactly, the gently caress please.”
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 07:09
|
|
|
FunkyAl posted:You know what that's fair. HOWEVER, as an educator he should at least be active and alert in that capacity. Like, talking to Tony in the teacher's lounge. I think there's real danger of violence in this specific case, but I get what you're saying.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 07:15
|
|
|
Pyre File posted:But the whole point is they, and the comic, have grown past that. I’m not sure if they’ve grown past it so much as regressed past it
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 07:44
|
|
|
My feelings on the chapter can be ultimately summarised as feeling like this went down:
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 09:58
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:I think a simpler way of stating this is that the problem with the way the comic approaches the issue is that it makes it all about Annie and Tony, and ignores that the people around them can and should intervene to protect Antimony. Probably, but if they're unwilling or unable to then Annie can still take care of herself by setting boundaries and determining what is acceptable and what harms her. Then the other people could help her ensure they are respected. As opposed to pushing away all people who might want to intervene as not getting it.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 10:50
|
|
|
Honestly the crummy-to-half half-decent adults could never seem completely horrible to me in contrast to the like hilariously psychopathic behavior of the Court. I know it feels kind of like a copout to say "well the vague System is broken" when we have like concrete interpersonal wrongs to dissect there, but like... this thread would not have had a tenth of the fun Tony conversations it had if the Court hadn't dragged Tony back kicking and screaming by idly sitting back and letting him mutilate himself and put his daughter in a coma in a hosed up grief bender before using her future as a bargaining chip. It's kind of wild to me that Anja et. al would align themselves with this group and I've always wondered why / what they get out of it. I've been intrigued to learn more about them for ages and maybe we will now?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 11:44
|
|
|
Fecha posted:It's kind of wild to me that Anja et. al would align themselves with this group and I've always wondered why / what they get out of it. https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=753 They believe they can make it better. Working hard with a good heart will help the Court be a better place. I think that Kat's right here, just for the wrong reasons. The entire process is flawed, you can't just make it better. But it's flawed because of the people, and they only allow similar people to become part of the system. Teachers like the Donlans and Eglamore, outside expeditionists like Tony, Jones like Jones aren't part of the core Court. (see also https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1991 where the Court co-opts Anja's technology)
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 15:27
|
|
|
What about Paz, who at first explicitly stated the Court is made up of people doing their best, and is now slowly becoming representative of everything screwed up about the Court system in her words and actions, rather than helping change it for the better herself?
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 15:33
|
|
|
A little while back I'd started thinking about the themes of various webcomics, and how you'd describe what they're about without mentioning their plot or characters. Like how Kill Six Billion Demons is about self-actualisation and carving out your place in the world, and Sleepless Domain is about healing and supporting each other through times of crisis. I came to the conclusion that Gunnerkrigg Court is about navigating systems that don't have your best interests at heart. It's not just the Court itself, just about every power structure in the story has priorities other than the welfare of the people living under it. The Realm of the Dead comes closest, and they still lied to a child for some 70 years telling him his make-work job was important. It's explored in the contrast between the Court and the Forest. The Court is a tangle of bureaucracy so deep that anyone who looks responsible for its problems is, once we get to know them, trapped by it as much as the kids are, and everyone working for them - which is functionally everyone living under them - is twisted into serving their viewpoint whatever the individual goals or morality might be like. The Forest, on the other hand, is very explicitly under the thumb of outright gods. And the word we had for life under Coyote is that things were fine as long as you didn't get their attention. Neither of the big dogs gave the slightest poo poo about the people living in the forest except how they could serve their ends, and once they finally got into a fight everyone living there was collateral damage. We see it with the robots, whose parallel society, for all its goofy charm, firmly suppresses dissent and is now turning a teenager into a god without her consent. We even see this theme in the psychopomps - through most of the early comic they're presented as Annie's friends and they treat her with warmth and familiarity, but as soon as she actually needs their help we see just how inhuman and mechanical they are.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 15:54
|
|
|
Pyre File posted:What about Paz, who at first explicitly stated the Court is made up of people doing their best, and is now slowly becoming representative of everything screwed up about the Court system in her words and actions, rather than helping change it for the better herself? life_source posted:they only allow similar people to become part of the system 
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 16:04
|
|
|
coolusername posted:I think that's my problem, then. Annie and Kat was like... the heart and emotional core of the comic? To me, at least. This is exactly how I feel about the comic's evolution, thank you for putting it into words more succintly than I could. In retrospect, freeing Jeanne from her curse was kind of the point of no return for plot points being resolved by the initiative of the protagonists. It was also almost too quick and neat, but they did almost lose Smitty and Annie definitely lost Ayilu and Red as friends/allies. Everything else after that just sort of resolves like the author is in a hurry to get over with each plot beat in order to get to the parts he actually wants to draw.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 16:52
|
|
|
Chapters 76 and 77 imo were meant to be the climax and denouement of Annie and Kat's building friendship, because how can you raise a friendship to a level past breaking time over your knee to save very specifically only your personal friend and nothing and nobody else? Now the comic is free to explore them going a little further their separate ways and dealing with their own struggles instead for a while, which is important for pacing because things on Kat's end are probably going to be ramping up again soon going by Chapter 75's implications. I don't mind the comic not being about Kat and Annie adventures specifically but I definitely agree it has remained my favorite 'era' so far because of the initiative the characters demonstrated. People rudely joked back in the day that the comic was just about teenagers standing around and talking but then it was untrue- now it sorta kinda reflects that complaint, if temporarily and imo sometimes justifiably. I hope it stops being that way soon. edit: Also this chapter started with Kat and Annie going off to have a Kat and Annie Mystery Adventure. We watched what Jones was doing today instead while they went and did that. No big change on that front because it's happened just that way in the comic before, just in a much I guess fairer context. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 23:10 on May 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 23:04
|
|
|
Cannot wait for the next chapter when we get two Anthonys.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 23:15
|
|
|
Pants Donkey posted:Cannot wait for the next chapter when we get two Anthonys. There already are two Anthonys, it's just that one of em has spent most of the comic trying to dissolve the idea that she is like her parents (she is)
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2021 23:20
|
|
|
coolusername posted:I think that's my problem, then. Annie and Kat was like... the heart and emotional core of the comic? To me, at least. Yeah, same. I'm sure this would be less jarring if read all at once instead of MWF, but I truly miss Annie and Kat doing their thing together in the rising action. I wish we could have kept it more past Tony's reentry into Annie's life. Strep Vote fucked around with this message at 03:09 on May 31, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 31, 2021 03:07
|
|
|
I think this comic would make more sense if it was called "Gunnerkrigg Kat" or "Gunnerkrigg Annie"
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2021 05:17
|
|
|
The Lake Water is gonna be like The Mind Cage but about Diego 
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2021 08:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 06:01 |
|
|
Gunnerkrigg Dour
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2021 10:49
|
|
