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Alacron posted:The way SMT does alignment can be interesting when looking at from outside (SMT 2 gave you law points if you let the game give you the defaults for nameable characters) but I won't miss it if they do like SMT4A and just drop it.
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May 31, 2021 00:59
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My favorite part of four is the Tunnel of Exposition where they explain law and chaos to any toddlers who might be playing the series for the first time But also it sucked how the routes were basically identical just with a different final boss
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May 31, 2021 01:01
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you get the ending you earn, quit licking angel boots losers
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May 31, 2021 02:02
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Having a forced alignment choice worth 10 points immediately before the ending split, in a game where the Neutral range is +8 to -8, was an impressively bad decision that hopefully won't be repeated, at least.
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May 31, 2021 02:15
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Thuryl posted:Having a forced alignment choice worth 10 points immediately before the ending split, in a game where the Neutral range is +8 to -8, was an impressively bad decision that hopefully won't be repeated, at least. I thought it was +/-10.
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May 31, 2021 02:35
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Hunt11 posted:I thought it was +/-10. Nope, if you're dead-centre neutral at the time of the final choice, either option will push you out of Neutral.
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May 31, 2021 03:17
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Didn't the hospital have random encounters originally? I just got the annex pass and the only encounters have been the scripted ones.
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May 31, 2021 03:38
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It did
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May 31, 2021 03:41
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Here's my real question: is the little mini-dungeon before the elevator in the hospital Maniax/Chronicle exclusive?
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May 31, 2021 03:44
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brand engager posted:Didn't the hospital have random encounters originally? I just got the annex pass and the only encounters have been the scripted ones. I got plenty of random encounters in the hospital...
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May 31, 2021 03:44
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brand engager posted:Didn't the hospital have random encounters originally? I just got the annex pass and the only encounters have been the scripted ones. It doesn't have encounters until you get into the annex. That's true in the original too
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May 31, 2021 04:11
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The interesting thing about Nocturne is that while it technically has something of an alignment system it really doesn't fall into line with the classic SMT system of Law/Neutral/Chaos. Chiaki lines up pretty well with Chaos and the Freedom ending works as something of a good Neutral but Hikawa & Isamu don't particularly line up too well with traditional alignments. The True Demon Ending is so much it's own thing it doesn't really count as anything typical either.
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May 31, 2021 05:00
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Chiaki is weird because while her reason closely fits with Chaos as it appears in other games, she's the one the angels all throw in with.
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May 31, 2021 05:23
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WrightOfWay posted:Chiaki is weird because while her reason closely fits with Chaos as it appears in other games, she's the one the angels all throw in with. There's been a lot of discussion about this over the years, presumably for far longer than my 4 years in the SMT fandom. One response is that the Vortex World is just so chaotic that demons are acting against their usual alignment. Most of Hikawa's servants are typical Chaos Races like Fallen, Nights Femme, etc.. Now Yosuga grew out of the Mantra and the Mantra are what you'd expect: Kishin, Brute, Foul, Wilder, etc.. Then all manner of angels serve Chiaki. Why? Another interpretation is it's all about hierarchy. Chiaki is contrasted with typical Chaos because she doesn't seem to care much about raw potential. I like to compare her with Yamato from Devil Survivor 2 and in his Meritocracy Ending there's this random little street urchin boy who takes charge and is a great hero because he had that potential and in this world it was allowed to flourish. Yosuga would seem to deny that. There is a fixed pecking order with some at the top and others forever at the bottom with none of the "advancement" Chaos sometimes promises. The angels like this. Law is all about hierarchy and letting live some and crushing the rest. They just have a different basis for deciding who is worthy or unworthy now. I always wondered at why Chiaki has two transformations and I got the impression in my last run that it mirrors the Mantra-Yosuga change. First she looks like this  The Mantra Phase. Demonic and ugly Then this, Yosuga Phase. Divine and elegant 
NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 05:43 on May 31, 2021 |
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May 31, 2021 05:34
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Alignments are fine, but they really should shake things up a little like Nocturne did. It's not a good thing veteran players could guess half of SMT4's story by the game cover alone.
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May 31, 2021 08:04
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Petiso posted:Alignments are fine, but they really should shake things up a little like Nocturne did. It's not a good thing veteran players could guess half of SMT4's story by the game cover alone. Something that I think would be a fun spin would be a strong Neutral antagonist. In the mainlines (or close-to, like Strange Journey) Neutral never really gets to be a distinct story force in and of itself; Strange Journey had Gore essentially just being a random weirdo rather than an actual presence, and both Nocturne (as much as it had a Neutral) and IV had its Neutral voice be deliberately weak; I believe Apocalypse had a villain who was effectively Neutral, but I haven't played it and what I could read didn't quite meet what I was thinking. I think the reason Neutral is so often seen as the 'Good Ending' is because there's no strong evidence against it, so a good Neutral villain, even if not the main one, would shake things up a bit. I think they could pull it off just looking to Persona 5; while Jaldabaoth would definitely be considered Law in regular SMT alignments, Shido (and Royal's new antagonist) would definitely be Neutral and is a pretty strong villain, if not a complex one. Since the main con for Neutral seems to usually be 'it doesn't actually solve any of the problems that caused the game in the first place', perhaps a Neutral antagonist could work by pulling that into the forefront. Maybe a politician or billionaire who wants to bring the old world back only because they were on top of it. Doesn't have to be the main villain--especially since SMTV looks to be setting Lucifer up as its main villain--but someone big to say 'remember that the world you know is hosed, too'. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 08:37 on May 31, 2021 |
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May 31, 2021 08:32
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SMT4 almost did something interesting with this in that, if law is angels and chaos is demons, neutral is just aligning with the humans, and the uh....the yakuza guy was essentially the only real human presence in Tokyo who was able to run a city that wasn't under constant demon threat. Then you learn more about what's going on an realize he's doing a fun analogy for capitalism, but then the game says "mmmmmm nah actually he's Chaos too" and you're forced to kill him and then the human faction shifts over to two guys who have seemingly done nothing but drink in a cafe since the world got ruined who also coincidentally happen to know exactly how to Dues Ex Tokyo and solve all the problems but haven't done it yet themselves for reasons I don't remember
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May 31, 2021 08:49
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:SMT4 almost did something interesting with this in that, if law is angels and chaos is demons, neutral is just aligning with the humans, and the uh....the yakuza guy was essentially the only real human presence in Tokyo who was able to run a city that wasn't under constant demon threat. Then you learn more about what's going on an realize he's doing a fun analogy for capitalism, but then the game says "mmmmmm nah actually he's Chaos too" and you're forced to kill him and then the human faction shifts over to two guys who have seemingly done nothing but drink in a cafe since the world got ruined who also coincidentally happen to know exactly how to Dues Ex Tokyo and solve all the problems but haven't done it yet themselves for reasons I don't remember Thinking about it, I do remember him largely because he was supported by those cool Japanese historical and mythical demons that I think were done by the Kamen Rider costume designer. I... thought there might've been a reason I forgot about him. It's a shame, because the Famed race would be an absolutely perfect central focus for an 'evil Neutral' faction, and they just squandered it.
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May 31, 2021 10:40
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Petiso posted:Alignments are fine, but they really should shake things up a little like Nocturne did. It's not a good thing veteran players could guess half of SMT4's story by the game cover alone. I saw it as them "Re-introducing" the traditional SMT games since the series has a completely different audience than it did in the PS2 era, and Apocalypse introduced a bit of a twist on that but Apocalypse basically boiled down to Kill God AND Friends, or Kill God With Friends
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May 31, 2021 11:14
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My memory of Apocalypse is bad so this might be all wrong, but didn’t that kind of have the “good” ending doesn’t solve anything issue? Wasn’t the ending where you kill everyone the one where you fix the universe so you don’t have to worry about the same things happening again.
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May 31, 2021 11:44
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Ethiser posted:My memory of Apocalypse is bad so this might be all wrong, but didn’t that kind of have the “good” ending doesn’t solve anything issue? Wasn’t the ending where you kill everyone the one where you fix the universe so you don’t have to worry about the same things happening again. That does seem to be the implication, unfortunately. I think a rough comparison can be made to Ronaldo's Triangulum Arc Ending where the Administrators (like Polaris in the main game) just keep coming to try and fix humanity and our heroes are set on a course of fending off each and every one of them for potentially ever. IVA would be similar only with YHVH. YHVH made the universe and it all conforms to his ideas. He will be created again inevitably. We were just having this talk on Reddit. I figure people on here would be very sympathetic to the kind of ideas being expressed there: quote:That's exactly what the problem is. "This is the good perspective so it's not brainwashing people to forcibly bring them to it." And the good perspective is modern status quo japan. The end of original p5 even almost aknowledges the dubiousness of this stance, but instead of facing it you just double down. The fact that in the cognitive world some people look imprisoned, but being a salaryman who is dead inside is free apparently is exactly what the issue is. And it makes it even worse to conflate morality and psychology in this way. quote:Me: Neutral is always presented as the most free, the most non-ideal which is what makes it ideal. There was a series of lectures I listened to once that called the 20th Century a Century of Utopianism and Terror. SMT embodies the liberal rejection of that. Utopia grand visions lead only to the extremes of Law or Chaos but Neutral doesn't say "let's fix everything quickly!" It sys "things will get better...eventually." But some folks think things are changing. This discussion started with a talk about alignments being revolutionized. Well, what we know of SMTV seems to present Lucifer as the aggressor and YHVH might already be dead. This is very different, Law is almost always the ones who kick off the catastrophes and Lucifer just kind of interjects himself. Furthermore, the New Neutral Ending in Strange Journey Redux shows Humanity learned nothing from the Scharzwelt and didn't change. It comes again in the far future and Space Marine has to stop it. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 13:35 on May 31, 2021 |
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May 31, 2021 13:31
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the best end of nocturne has you team up with lucifier and sacrifice the entire world to power up to fight god lol
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May 31, 2021 13:40
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Cleretic posted:Something that I think would be a fun spin would be a strong Neutral antagonist. In the mainlines (or close-to, like Strange Journey) Neutral never really gets to be a distinct story force in and of itself; Strange Journey had Gore essentially just being a random weirdo rather than an actual presence, and both Nocturne (as much as it had a Neutral) and IV had its Neutral voice be deliberately weak; I believe Apocalypse had a villain who was effectively Neutral, but I haven't played it and what I could read didn't quite meet what I was thinking. I think the reason Neutral is so often seen as the 'Good Ending' is because there's no strong evidence against it, so a good Neutral villain, even if not the main one, would shake things up a bit. I think they could pull it off just looking to Persona 5; while Jaldabaoth would definitely be considered Law in regular SMT alignments, Shido (and Royal's new antagonist) would definitely be Neutral and is a pretty strong villain, if not a complex one. I've always liked Jack's Squad from SJ as a good example of Neutral Villains. Also Stephen from IV Apocalypse. It's all Humanity First And At Any Cost. Have Stephen or whoever invade he Expanse and start monetizing demons. Ya know, Shinra stuff: capture them, torture them, use their blood and essence to make super tech or even weird mind controlling simple healthcare products. I guess this is more a World of Darkness kinda thing... But my point is, this sets up humans as the ones at fault instead of just being the helpless victims of demons or a hopeless situation brought on by demons. It would also justify a forceful response from both Chaos and Law. IVA definitely has hints of this in Dagda's route where Stephen really doesn't care what you do as long as you attack ad dethrone God and set humans in his place. That same philosophy can easily justify the scenario I laid out.
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May 31, 2021 13:44
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There's been an actually really cool through line where they've been playing with Alignment a lot since SMT 3 in this ever evolving critique of the whole idea. SMT 3 has The Reasons which as spoken about in this thread a lot are weird inversions of the ideals of previous alignments filter through Human understanding but still all withing the framework God has made with the options to reject or destroy the whole system for True Chaos and True Neutral ending. Then you get to the first SMT 4, Strange Journey, and everything is played more or less entirely straight. This was a real return to form really and a setting of the stage for the second SMT 4, SMT 4. SMT 4 mostly remains within alignment framework's but the Neutral side has been expanded and evolved. It's no longer just the side of Humanity or the side of returning to the past, it's now explicitly the side to reject the entire system and the Great Will itself. From STEVEN we learn how intertwined humanity is with the Great Will. We also get a Dark-Neutral alignment in The White, a neutral aligned faction that also wants to break free of this whole cycle by just killing everything because we cannot escape this existence. 4A then rolls around and explicitly makes choosing the Law/Chaos dichotomy into an early bad ending. It is not something any Human has business in tossing their lot into. More to that end we get a New Neutral Faction that has nothing to do with Humanity with The Non-Abrahamic God Squad, but by the end of it the real choice has nothing to do with the system. We finally in totality reject the Law/Chaos War. This trajectory is followed through into the Remake of Strange Journey. Strange Journey Redux's new endings follow up traditional Alignment Endings by having a mostly Human victim of those worlds come back from the new world you built and hate it. Humanity suffers under any of these endings, and through your relationship with her you reforge your Ideals to better serve humanity, even in the Law and Chaos endings. With these Humans overthrow the Top Powers of Law and Chaos, reforging the entire system into something We control and for our benefit. So what I'm saying is I'm very excited to see how SMT 5 rolls around because we've been on a real trajectory of "Humans take over this poo poo and the demons are powerless to stop us." ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 15:48 on May 31, 2021 |
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May 31, 2021 14:30
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I'd like to see them go ham with humans vs heaven or whatnot, make them weak to guns and nukes or whatever because those are the inventions of man. for a serious neutral villain, maybe someone who just wants to void all creation away entirely, maybe with a black hole or something more metaphysical. can't have law or chaos if nothing exists.
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May 31, 2021 15:13
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Light Gun Man posted:I'd like to see them go ham with humans vs heaven or whatnot, make them weak to guns and nukes or whatever because those are the inventions of man. I wouldn't mind seeing the white or whatever they were called returning.
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May 31, 2021 15:16
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That was pretty much Dagda's deal wasn't it? He wanted to return to the time before anything had form, and subsequently before YHVH came along.
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May 31, 2021 15:18
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Alacron posted:That was pretty much Dagda's deal wasn't it? He wanted to return to the time before anything had form, and subsequently before YHVH came along. Dagda wanted to hit the refresh button whilst The White wanted to end everything.
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May 31, 2021 15:19
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Eligor and his Mudo spamming can bite me. The fact I can’t have his broken turn adding moves when recruited is also a kick in the demi-balls. I died 5 times to a connected Mudo (one admittedly my fault because I had a weak magatama equipped) and each time it was when I was right before or heading to a save point. Also I decided to go all in on skill replacements and just deal with the consequences. Sometimes it sucks (why did you take my high pixies attacks for status inflicting moves you bastards) but I got a Makami with Avenge now and it’s been slapping people with some righteous fury. Let the RNG consume me Spiffster fucked around with this message at 15:49 on May 31, 2021 |
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May 31, 2021 15:46
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The White were absolutely the most interesting and innovative thing about IV, in my opinion. I'd love to see them back.Hunt11 posted:Dagda wanted to hit the refresh button whilst The White wanted to end everything. Yep. IVA kinda did the same thing as SJR: YHVH coming along hosed over all the polytheistic gods and changed the fundamental metaphysics of existence. Hence why Asura's real pre-YHVH form is a sexy women with a big butt. And Dagda's thing is he is n elemental force but he's stuck in one place, one form. Some people criticize his ideas as being incoherent, I just saw them as a being lashing out and trying to do everything he could to be freed of this false existence. That's why he doesn't even really seem to mind when you kill him.
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May 31, 2021 16:04
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NikkolasKing posted:I've always liked Jack's Squad from SJ as a good example of Neutral Villains. Also Stephen from IV Apocalypse. It's all Humanity First And At Any Cost. Have Stephen or whoever invade he Expanse and start monetizing demons. Ya know, Shinra stuff: capture them, torture them, use their blood and essence to make super tech or even weird mind controlling simple healthcare products. I guess this is more a World of Darkness kinda thing... He's also one of the last definitive connections to the first games, because he's one of the few who can traverse dimensions at will, others being Seraph, and possibly Mido and St.Germain, he is the same Steven from SMT1 and killing him would feel like a betrayal towards the man who managed to stop humanity from getting totally wiped out in SMT1 and 2. ZenMasterBullshit posted:There's been an actually really cool through line where they've been playing with Alignment a lot since SMT 3 in this ever evolving critique of the whole idea. Really it's been going on since the very beginning of SMT. The multiple paths is a reaction to Megami Tensei one and two having a fixed ending. SMT asks, hey what if you could join with the baddies? SMTII is a whole game that's theme seems to come out directly in the last couple minuets when YHVH says his spiel about always coming back if even a single person wishes for it. SMTII follows the Neutral ending, but shows the futility of it. The MC dies ingloriously, the messians take control of most of what's left of society in the ruins of the Cathedral, but they hardly have control given the whole society is about to fall apart and Abaddon is about to gulp down on the whole thing. In ways it reflects how we as fans can never have a truly definitive ending as we always want to experience new games in the series, likewise Humanity in the Megatenverse cannot reach a terminus as regardless of the Status Quo someone will try and upend the balance. In a sense I believe this is the core concept behind the idea of Axiom. Fans desire new games so no matter how many times you destroy YHVH,Lucifer,Polaris, etc. They'll always be some new danger or opportunity for humanity. Us as gameplayers are the Axiom, and our desire for challenge is why these rear end in a top hat Demiureges keep showing up for us to smack down. Also I can't find the post that brings it up but why do people always lump the Divine Entities into Neutral? It seems their much more a different flavor of Chaos to me. Summoning back the primordial gods was kind of Gotou's thing in SMT1 and they don't seem to have a plan that's all that different from Mem Aleph from what I can remember. Are people getting tripped up on them not being directly Luciferian or Messian. Megaten has done the Chaos vs Law without any YHVH influence with Margot Cuvier and Angel in DDS. Or am I just misremembering IV Final's whole story, which is very possible?
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May 31, 2021 18:09
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Gaius Marius posted:They absolutely should not make Steven a villain, he's the one guy whose constantly on the side of Humans. His first action in the games is to pull a mad lad move and send the demon summon program to everyone to try and stop the crazies trying to destroy the world. Also it really doesn't make sense for him to directly intervene in that way. By the midpoint of SMT1 or SMTII he's transcended past humanity and become a guide. I can't remember the Hindu term but it's the same type of being Seraph/Schrodinger is once they defeat Brahman's test. And like them his influence is limited to guiding other people towards their own enlightenment or destiny. Well IVA really seems to hint at Stephen being a not entirely benevolent force. He just wants God dead. The Divine Powers are kind of their own thing: Odin is Law, Krishna is Neutral and Maiteya is Chaos. Dagda is more the Dark-Neutral route. I don't think the Divine Powers and their ambitions as a whole align with Chaos, though. I wrote a post about this when I replayed Apoc: NikkolasKing posted:I used to ponder why Dagda hated Lucifer so much, why the Maitreya Faction were heretics to the Ring of Gaea. After all, Dagda's constant "all you need is yourself, dependency on others drags you down" is not so dissimilar to what some Chaos folks say, and Maitreya is even more insistent on absolute self-reliance and strength. And the Divine Powers are more than a little similar to SJ's Chaos faction insofar as they are the old gods who are trying to rise up against YHVH. They even get new forms that are their original, pre-YHVH gently caress up everything forms.
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May 31, 2021 18:20
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I'd like a game where they flip what demons are in the traditional law and chaos factions. Like all the Judeo-Christian angels are Chaos because they think they and YHVH are the strongest and anyone is welcome to try and usurp them, but since no one has ever succeeded they get to make the rules and Lucifer and his demons are Law because he thinks demons are naturally superior to humans and humans should be happy with their places in the universe as subordinates under him.
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May 31, 2021 18:23
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NikkolasKing posted:Well IVA really seems to hint at Stephen being a not entirely benevolent force. He just wants God dead. NikkolasKing posted:The Divine Powers are kind of their own thing: Odin is Law, Krishna is Neutral and Maiteya is Chaos. Dagda is more the Dark-Neutral route. Ethiser posted:I'd like a game where they flip what demons are in the traditional law and chaos factions. Like all the Judeo-Christian angels are Chaos because they think they and YHVH are the strongest and anyone is welcome to try and usurp them, but since no one has ever succeeded they get to make the rules and Lucifer and his demons are Law because he thinks demons are naturally superior to humans and humans should be happy with their places in the universe as subordinates under him. I just hope they manage to make a game that hits the same level of holy poo poo factor that SMT1 did with the opening/Nuke Apocalypse, or IV did with the reveal of Tokyo. Whatever else they do I have enough faith that the game will be good
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May 31, 2021 19:10
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Gotta say, I love Patrick Seitz, he was great as Gozu-Tennoh and Hell Biker AKA Macho Man Randy Savage, but OG Metatron was perfect https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn2cIiZDHwU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jnTjuMXLus
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May 31, 2021 21:43
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lmao I was hardstuck on Hell Biker until I realized you could just choose to not fight him
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May 31, 2021 21:47
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I really like the way it was revealed Mastema backstabbed the archangels in smt4 and created the conditions for akira to climb above tokyo and take over a egg as it landed.
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May 31, 2021 21:49
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Everything regarding the backstory to IV is incredibly cool. They set out to make a sequel to a non existent game and succeeded wildly.
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May 31, 2021 21:51
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Pharohman777 posted:I really like the way it was revealed Mastema backstabbed the archangels in smt4 and created the conditions for akira to climb above tokyo and take over a egg as it landed. Is this in the IV DLC? All I remember with Mastema is you find him at Tayama's place and I believe he was helping him produce those pills. I dunno, I gotta replay IV someday. I might like it more with a motivation of lorehunting.
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May 31, 2021 22:01
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NikkolasKing posted:Is this in the IV DLC? All I remember with Mastema is you find him at Tayama's place and I believe he was helping him produce those pills. The IV dlc if I remember correctly happens after Akira dies and it has Mastema sicking you on the archangles so that he can imprison them.
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May 31, 2021 22:04
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