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I am really excited for now that Nat's going to go visit the bank.
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Jun 1, 2021 01:07
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This is where I am sad that Tea put in Nat's head the idea that the stomp move doesn't do damage. because it does like twice hadoken damage. And has some mercy frames.
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Jun 1, 2021 01:23
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Tylana posted:This is where I am sad that Tea put in Nat's head the idea that the stomp move doesn't do damage. because it does like twice hadoken damage. And has some mercy frames. Oh cool. I haven't been using that in combat because I was concerned that it would put me in a tight spot.
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Jun 1, 2021 04:50
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It still can, but it's usually managable.
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Jun 1, 2021 05:03
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Hey Tea, are you going to tell Nat about Overcharming? It isn't something that is particularly intuitive to find on your own and could make for some interesting and tense gameplay sessions.
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Jun 1, 2021 11:56
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I'm worried we won't be able to get Nat's reaction to the bank on camera now, it being stated that it was gonna happen offscreen  Also, I thought Nat used the stomp move near some enemies and they got damaged? if that's not true then welp, yeah Nat is missing out on not using it.
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Jun 1, 2021 17:57
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Nat, here are three places you can explore now that you have the double jump, in order of importance (First one isn't that necessary, last one gets you actual story). Each spoilered individually for your convenience. Top of Crystal Peak left of Dirtmouth (This one you could have actually done way earlier with the Mantis Claw) BKingdom's Edge None of these lead to the Dreamers, so they could all technically be classed as faffing about.
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Jun 2, 2021 08:04
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Jun 2, 2021 23:30
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 But to give you some advice on finding Mirabelle, you need a Simple Key to open the door. There are two still out on the world map, both you can reach. One key is in the Ancient Basin, on a side path to Broken Vessel that you skipped the other is behind a breakable wall in the Coliseum EDIT: I just noticed that the first one doesn't show up as unexplored on your map, even if it honestly should. EDIT2: And if it makes you feel better once you find Mirabelle you can get back 150% of the money that she ran off with. SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jun 3, 2021 |
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Jun 3, 2021 00:00
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Jun 3, 2021 00:23
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quote:
I was really worried I'd end up inadvertently spoiling this for you, and I'm so glad that didn't happen 
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Jun 3, 2021 00:37
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See? There is no problem here.
Hmph. What if after we put in a huge deposit they just steal our money and run to a hot spring or something!?
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I died a LOT to the Watcher Knights. And out of a fear of locking myself out of things I did basically every single thing in the game I could that didn't approach those Dreamers, so I had quite a few powerups. Like, looking back it may seem kind of silly, since their patterns are simple - it's just having two of them at once that throws you off. But man, before you really practice those guys are some of the worst bosses you can come across, especially because if you're trying to speedrun the game there's no getting around them.
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Jun 3, 2021 00:39
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Watcher Knights are one of the trickier bosses on the critical path, and the biggest roadblock for the five-hour speedrun achievement.SirPhoebos posted:
If you Dream Nail her before she dips, she tells you exactly where she's going to go! Always be Dream Nailing, just not on ghosts that you still want to talk to. C-Euro fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jun 3, 2021 |
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Jun 3, 2021 00:47
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Can't believe you got them on your first try. If you're having this easy a time, you're gonna have to do all the DLC fights too... I do really like Millibelle's twist from a game design perspective. She'll only steal your money once you've given her a large amount - I think it's around 2000 geo? - which is more than any of the early-game purchases cost and the majority of the late-game ones. The bank provides a nice saftey net for your money until you've saved enough to prove money isn't a big concern for you. At which point, that safety net gets taken away. You no longer have a bank, so the stakes for death are now higher, as dying without first collecting your shade will lose all of the money you've saved. The ground state of tension becomes higher for the late game entirely separately from the design of the actual late-game challenges. It's very clever.
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Jun 3, 2021 00:52
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That settles it. Nat should definitely spend the rest of the game overcharmed.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:06
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Explopyro posted:I was really worried I'd end up inadvertently spoiling this for you, and I'm so glad that didn't happen I'm so angry right now.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:22
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It stings seeing you beat the Watcher Knights the first time. And this probably doesn't need to be spoiled since it concerns the watcher knight fight which you already did but you didn't even find the thing that takes out one of them before the fight. But to be fair you did upgrade your nail three times and have a fair amount of health and soul, so it stings less. And this was why we wanted you to record your offscreen doings, yeah.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:45
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You should have reminded nat to use the dream nail more. Because hitting Mirabelle with the dream nail, tells you where she goes for her "vacation".
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Jun 3, 2021 10:01
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So an actual question for my curiosity. Are the Watcher Knights meant to be a Damage Race? Can more than two spawn at once if you're too slow?
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Jun 3, 2021 17:46
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Natural 20 posted:So an actual question for my curiosity. No. Two is the maximum that can spawn.
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Jun 3, 2021 17:47
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They take a beating and don't leave much opportunity to heal when they're both bouncing around. Also you've gotten to the point where using spells vs not becomes a very different experience like Tea was alluding to early on. Details related to damage values under the spoiler. Those hadoukens do ~2x the damage of your nail, so those triple blasts are roughly equivalent to six hits on each knight when you've gotten them lined up. Doing all the damage in the period of a second or so significantly cuts down on the fights length.
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Jun 3, 2021 19:03
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Yeah, there's a few reasons - most of which have already been discussed - that Nat had a much easier time with the Watcher Knights. First, you can encounter them much earlier (you don't even need the monarch wings, actually), before you're reasonably equipped to fight them. Second, a lot of people (myself include) tend to focus on full strength builds resolving soul for healing, and that just doesn't work for this fight because the Knights don't stagger and their attacks come quick enough that you can't heal easily. The most effective way is indeed using spells to do as much damage as quickly as possible. I do think Nat also got a bit lucky when it came to avoiding the bouncing attacks when healing.
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Jun 4, 2021 04:58
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One of my favourite things is that Team Cherry didn't just account for people angrily swinging their nail at the bank, they were clearly hoping for it because the cardboard facade of a bank falling over is quite possibly the funniest thing in this entire game.
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Jun 4, 2021 10:01
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SirSamVimes posted:One of my favourite things is that Team Cherry didn't just account for people angrily swinging their nail at the bank, they were clearly hoping for it because the cardboard facade of a bank falling over is quite possibly the funniest thing in this entire game. The little detail of the sign breaking off the lamppost and falling as you pass it on the way out is just the perfect final cymbal hit on that rimshot.
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Jun 4, 2021 10:22
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Jun 4, 2021 23:57
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HS Bee C
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Jun 5, 2021 01:31
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LOL everyone on this thread has been careful not to spoil anything for Nat, only for Tea to carelessly reveal what happens to Myla! Why not just tell him Hornet is his half-sister, why don't you?! That said, if you visit Myla at the right time frame with the Dream Nail (I believe it's too late for Nat) then you can get a significant clue as to what the infection is SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Jun 5, 2021 |
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Jun 5, 2021 01:34
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If it makes you feel any better Nat, there are exactly as many Simple Keys in the game as there are simple locks, so you can't lock yourself (har) out of anything that they're gated behind. And Tea is telling the truth that you can find any of the remaining ones this instant! But you won't, because both are in places that appear as fully-explored on your map. Also if you want a quick peek behind the curtain, the Crossroads become infected either after you've beaten the Broken Vessel or after you've taken out your first Dreamer. C-Euro fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Jun 5, 2021 |
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Jun 5, 2021 01:46
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I don't think beating the vessel is supposed to signify something, unlike taking out one of the dreamers where it explicitly shows orange light leaking out. I think the developers just wanted to make sure you had plenty of time to see the infested crossroads since it's not too tough to leave the dreamers for last, like Nat is doing here. Beating the Broken Vessel is just a good midpoint where the developers know you've grown comfortable.
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Jun 5, 2021 05:01
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Marluxia posted:I don't think beating the vessel is supposed to signify something, unlike taking out one of the dreamers where it explicitly shows orange light leaking out. I think the developers just wanted to make sure you had plenty of time to see the infested crossroads since it's not too tough to leave the dreamers for last, like Nat is doing here. I think beating the Broken Vessel is meant to signify that the infection isn't contained anyway. Even if you leave the dreamers exactly as they are, the infection will soon break free and rampage even more than it's doing already; walking away isn't an option.
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Jun 5, 2021 05:27
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After you beat the Broken Vessel, all the Lightseeds that infested the Ancient Basin are gone. Presumably they migrated to the Crossroads and hosed it up
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Jun 5, 2021 05:36
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"Hmm. That seems ominous. Anyway, WHERE'S MY MONEY?" Nat's avoidance of the actual story in favor of vengeance for minor in game slights will always be fantastic.
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Jun 5, 2021 05:44
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pointlessone posted:"Hmm. That seems ominous. Anyway, WHERE'S MY MONEY?" 
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Jun 5, 2021 08:22
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pointlessone posted:"Hmm. That seems ominous. Anyway, WHERE'S MY MONEY?" Ok, unpopular opinion incoming... The "story" in this game, in my opinion (which is the correct and objective viewpoint of course) isn't all that. Every playthrough I watch has comments saying "DrEaMnAiL EvErYtHiNg!!!" but in the vast majority of cases all you get are vague phrases that mean next to nothing, or actual nothing. Ever since Dark Souls was a big thing I've been so over this vague, open-to-interpretation piecemeal maybe it means this, or maybe it means that, or maybe it's nothing at all, just flavour style of storytelling that when I encounter it now I belligerantly refuse to humour it. Either put an actual story in the game, or don't. If every other aspect of the gameplay stands up just fine without the story (which in this game it does, and then some) then it's fine to decide not to have one. But if you're going to put one in there, then I personally would rather it was in there, so to speak, rather than this wispy, fragmented half-story that takes watching several hours-long youtube videos to put together. If I want to indulge in that type of gameplay I'd rather do it in a game that is first and foremost a game about piecing together a story, e.g. Outer Wilds, Obra Dinn, Gone Home, Heaven's Vault, because those games provide generally much better quality storys and have unique mechanics built in to help you to figure them out in interesting ways. I don't find that it works for me in a game that is ostensibly a platformer, or an action RPG, with a cryptic story bolted on that was not a main priority.
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Jun 5, 2021 11:51
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Hollow Knight's story is pretty clear. 
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Jun 5, 2021 12:22
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Cactus posted:Ok, unpopular opinion incoming... You're not wrong that the gameplay can stand without its story. I'm personally of the opinion that as long as there is a story fully planned out in the author's mind and/or notes, we don't need to see all of it to enjoy the work. Knowing Hornet is the Knight's half-sister or Flukemarm is a MILF is essentially tangential to the story that's being told, and it's okay not to reveal it explicitly. However, the fact that the hour-long videos explaining the story exist means that the story is literally there to be discovered, you're just benefiting from the people who made the videos spending 12+ hours piecing things together. And that's what happens if you go around dream nailing everything. It's like being mailed a jigsaw puzzle one piece at a time. And some people, myself included, love that. Some of these pieces come from things like Dream Nailing a non-unique enemy, that only appears in one spot and doesn't respawn, and who you usually encounter and beat before getting the Dream Nail. Or equipping a specific charm and sticking your nose literally everywhere. The gameplay might stand on its own, but I think the story getting metered out in dribs and drabs and hidden everywhere does make for a much better fit to this methodical exploration of a kingdom fallen to ruin than a single upfront cutscene that says "The Hollow Knight has been overcome by Radiance. Are you a bad enough bug to take his place?" Even though this is literally what the opening cutscene shows and what Hornet asks you in front of the fountain.
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Jun 5, 2021 12:57
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Cactus posted:Ok, unpopular opinion incoming... There's two layers of story. The overall story is told through the environments, the enemies, npc designs, signposting, and the player character themselves. On this layer, Hollow Knight is an absolute masterpiece: Something really bad happened a long time ago and nearly wiped out this bug kingdom. Some bugs tried to stop it and mostly succeeded at sealing that something away. All that now remains is a nearly empty world with hints that the seal is leaking. At the point we are now, the player's actions have made things much worse. Thanks to Metroid Prime's Scan Visor, we now have a secondary story telling method that can build a massive, lore filled world that can be completely ignored, obsessively collected, or somewhere in between, all powered by the player's willingness to hunt. This is the Dream Nail layer. RPG storytelling in an exploration platformer, doled out in frustratingly tiny amounts with huge amounts of unrelated worldbuilding fluff. This type of storytelling needs to force the player into activating mandatory plot reveals via the Dream Nail / Scan Visor / Telepathy somehow, and to be honest, Hollow Knight isn't great at it. This last episode, Nat got to one of the major map marked McGuffins and got virtually no story reveals. Because everyone raves about the environmental story telling of games like Dark Souls and Hollow Knight without addressing the elephant in the room of people who don't obsessively push the "Check to see if this copy and pasted doodad is plot relevant this time" button, other game devs see that as the new popular way to tell a story and bury 90% of the plot behind optional scan visor points, 4 vague words at a time.
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Jun 5, 2021 13:37
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SirSamVimes posted:Hollow Knight's story is pretty clear. Not really, no. It's fine that it's there and I'm happy that there are people that love spending hours replaying the game in different ways to try to get all the pieces of the puzzle, but it just doesn't work for me. There is, for me, absolutely no difference between the story being present in its current form, or there being no story at all. And, for me, my experience of playing Hollow Knight didn't suffer for that fact. Cactus fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Jun 5, 2021 |
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Jun 5, 2021 13:46
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pointlessone posted:This type of storytelling needs to force the player into activating mandatory plot reveals via the Dream Nail / Scan Visor / Telepathy somehow, and to be honest, Hollow Knight isn't great at it. This last episode, Nat got to one of the major map marked McGuffins and got virtually no story reveals. As someone still following along blind here, I gotta say I found the lack of any fanfare or plot dumps or even a boss fight with Lurien was awesome at setting a mood to make the whole thing feel extremely eerie.
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Jun 5, 2021 13:57
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Nat 20 at least seems to be keeping up with the story so far. Tea occasionally prompting him to say what he thinks is going on probably helps - if there's one big flaw to this style of presentation in a game like Hollow Knight it's that the gameplay often distracts you from trying to piece together the clues you have to figure out the plot. If there's one other thing worth noting it's that the plot is best understood playing the game twice. This game, like Dark Souls before it, has a tendency to tell you what is going on with things without telling you what those things are or what they mean. It's then on you to remember what was said about them once you do actually find them. The opening cutscene shows you what happened to the Hollow Knight, but you won't know this is what you're seeing and the first you hear about what the Hollow Knight actually is is in the City of Tears, after you've had 3+ early-game zones to forget all about the contextless opening. Hornet's speech to you in the City is similar; she basically tells you why you'll be doing the optional endgame stuff which isn't going to be relevant until you've done most of the rest of the game. Unless you're doing an LP and have past recordings to look back on and realise, oh, that's what they were talking about, then you're probably going to have to play the game again to see how it all fits together. Dark Souls' obscure storytelling is, as I understand it, designed to invoke its lead designer's nostalgic feelings for playing RPGs in english when he barely understood english and had to figure out what was going on from context and the vague clues he could pick out of the english dialogue. And there's definitely room for that kind of storytelling; proper mysteries aren't common in video games so getting to really puzzle out a plot is a rare treat. Plus it's good for engagement as players can collaborate and help each other to understand. I can understand someone not personally liking it, though, if you're not up for that kind of mystery.
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Jun 5, 2021 14:07
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