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Beefeater1980 posted:
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Jun 1, 2021 11:09
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Japan also had the advantage of effectively having some manner of public school system starting around the 17th century. Would be cool if they modeled that in Vicky 3 in a way besides just starting literacy, for example giving them an education reform or two for free.
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Jun 1, 2021 11:15
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Big Hubris posted:I think a fantasy GSG from Paradox needs to do what Stellaris refused to and smash everything as a normal part of play. Let it have phases of play that exist to generate the new state of play for the next round rather than to be won. I hope the ambulance arrived in time to help you.
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Jun 1, 2021 11:17
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Imagine four grand strategy games perched at the edge of a cliff...
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Jun 1, 2021 14:29
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talking about literacy in China, something thats understated is the effect of the may 4th movement in 1919. Before that, almost everything written in chinese was written in classical chinese, which had very little to do with the language as spoken by the people (Kindve like how in europe until like the 16th century most things were written in latin rather than the vernecular). After it though, most Chinese language writing became in the vernacular, so there was much more incentive to learn to read and write. The communists did have a lot to do with it as well, but before 1919, to learn to read and write you had to be pretty well educated.
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Jun 1, 2021 15:28
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Beefeater1980 posted:I’ve been told that Korean writing is super well designed for fast learning but not sure about there. There haven't been any comprehensive modern studies of premodern Korean literacy so it's still not a totally settled subject, but basically it seems to have been fairly high in Hangeul but lower in Hanja (Chinese characters), and the latter especially for women. Hanja/Classical Chinese was the language of the administration and sciences, and social status/prestige was largely based around mastery of the classics and passing the state examination, all of which required knowledge of it. There were extensive state (and later private) schools throughout the country to tutor in it/the classics, and boys of the elite (and often one son of many non-elite but not destitute families) would be expected to attend them in their youth and so probably all had at least some grasp of it. In the 18th century like 25% of the registered population (which was maybe half or less of the actual population) were elite; by Victoria's period this went to an insane like 50-60% as the social classes broke down a bit, but as it climbed it also meant the quality of education probably declined substantially for many (Victoria's period is, incidentally, arguably one of Korea's lowest points historically; Joseon society kind of collapsed during the 19th century, just in time to meet colonialism). So Hanja knowledge might have been semi-okay for men, although it's a bit hard to tell. As the language of administration though, women on the other hand were actively discouraged from learning it, and those that knew it were probably vanishingly few (I've seen estimates of like 1-2%). Hangeul in contrast seems to have been much more widespread, especially from the latter half of the dynasty. There was a huge boom in popular literature, manuals on all sorts of things were made in Hangeul for women to read, and in times of unrest and so on the government would print notices and appeals and so on in Hangeul for commoners to read. Where maybe one person in each village had at least a passing knowledge of Hanja and so if you needed help with a document you'd have to go to them, outside of slaves and the destitute knowledge in Hangeul seems to have been somewhat expected, even for women; that's at least the impression I get from historians when they talk about it, although like I mentioned there haven't been any truly thorough studies (although as I understand it historical literacy is hard to estimate at the best of times). What this might mean for the game is that for a traditionalist Joseon Korea that still requires mastery of Classical Chinese to work in the administration / rise in status (i.e. the historical reality at the game start), literacy wouldn't be great; worse than Japan at least for sure. If the administration accepted Hangeul though, literacy would have been a lot better.
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Jun 1, 2021 15:53
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The stuff about Hangeul is really interestin. Its probably a feature that is way too far down the priority list for Vic 3 to include it at launch, but given that several countries in the period transitioned from using an elite language or dialect for state administration to using the vernacular, itd be neat to have that in the game as an optional decision or government policy that gave a bump in literacy rates but upset all the rich people or something. Sure the impacts wouldn't necessarily be accurately represented, but its a notable enough thing for a game about victorian statecraft to include.
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Jun 1, 2021 16:41
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Let me play as France and beat the local language out of my non-parisian pops while you're at it.
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Jun 1, 2021 16:47
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just make the literacy requirement for promoting to bureaucrat higher for those nations. that way you start with a high literacy relative to other similar states, but can't do as much with it until you have taken a decision to reform the bureaucracy assuming that v3's mechanics around bureaucrats are anything at all like v2's, which we can't really assume at all
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Jun 1, 2021 16:49
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Popoto posted:I -think- HOI4 isn’t, but not sure. HOI4 is super duper banned in China since it doesn't show the PRC with present day borders in perfect internal harmony. Not to mention Tibet is on the map.
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Jun 1, 2021 16:57
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i know there's still an active chinese hoi4 community at least, so they weren't stopped by the steam ban
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Jun 1, 2021 17:09
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Davincie posted:i know there's still an active chinese hoi4 community at least, so they weren't stopped by the steam ban Isn't ignoring/bypassing all the internet and gaming restrictions just SOP for anyone vaguely nerdy in China these days?
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Jun 1, 2021 17:11
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Davincie posted:i know there's still an active chinese hoi4 community at least, so they weren't stopped by the steam ban People play our games in China for sure, but the only way we'd ever not get officially banned by the Chinese Government would probably be to remove politics from our games altogether so that's not happening pretty much ever.
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Jun 1, 2021 17:12
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Wiz posted:HOI4 is super duper banned in China since it doesn't show the PRC with present day borders in perfect internal harmony. What about CK2? That got sort of a China and Tibet?
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Jun 1, 2021 17:16
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Wiz posted:People play our games in China for sure, but the only way we'd ever not get officially banned by the Chinese Government would probably be to remove politics from our games altogether so that's not happening pretty much ever. imagining a Chinese Edition of Victoria 1/2 that starts with a civilized Qing which instantly breaks the world economy from the very first tick
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Jun 1, 2021 17:17
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Alphabets are vulnerable to phonetic drift, but otherwise they'll still always give people a frame of reference when learning new words, and also are a lot simpler to get working in machines. I don't know if there ever was a Chinese typewriter, but I know that China invented movable type before Gutenberg, but apparently didn't have the same kind of printing revolution because it wasn't as easy for them to use. I don't know if other writing systems have features that are better or worse for modernization that might make it worth integrating a choice of writing system into the game. I know that a few countries end up choosing whether they want to use one neighbor's alphabet or the other to be closer to one of them. I guess Arabic is a lot better for calligraphy than typing?
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Jun 1, 2021 17:20
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genericnick posted:What about CK2? That got sort of a China and Tibet? predates whatever dynasty treaty they use to claim sovereignty anyway what is the “official” Chinese history of hoi4’s timeline like that they have an issue with the game? do they just want the KMT holding everything except yan’an?
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Jun 1, 2021 17:20
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Takanago posted:imagining a Chinese Edition of Victoria 1/2 that starts with a civilized Qing which instantly breaks the world economy from the very first tick Pretty sure anything with Qing in it would also be banned. I think the only interpretation of history that wouldn't be would go something like: First the big bang happened Immediately after, the People's Republic of China formed with present day borders (+Taiwan) and was internally peaceful and prosperous for all time Then all the other stuff
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Jun 1, 2021 17:23
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From wiki "The Chinese government regulates the creation and distribution of materials regarding Chinese history.[41] Particular emphasis is placed on combatting "historical nihilism". The CCP's historical research body, the Central Committee Party History Research Office, has defined historical nihilism as that which "seek[s] to distort the history of modern China's revolution, the CCP and the armed forces under the guise of reevaluating existing narratives", and thus countering such nihilism is "a form of political combat, crucial to the CCP leadership and the security of socialism".[42] In practice, the term is often applied to any narratives that challenge official views of historical events." They understandably care more about recent history than pretending the Song controlled the Tarim basin or whatever.
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Jun 1, 2021 17:25
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I'm not 100% versed in it (and I understand it's a bit down to the whims of whatever censor is on the case while looking at whatever piece of media anyway) but it's not as simple as banning everything that depicts a non-unified China / China with different borders at any point in history. There's some standard lines in the state history (e.g. "Tibet became part of China from the Yuan Dynasty"; it can be non-Chinese before but not after) that might get problematic but I think it's only really once you get into the 19th century and the "Century of Humiliation" and so on that it starts getting really sensitive. The government line is also, incidentally and with some surprise, way more reasonable than some netizens are these days. There's been a huge spat between Chinese and Korean netizens over parts of their shared/not shared history over the past year or so, basically entirely driven by netizens; Chinese state historians have ironically a few times come down more on the Korean side.
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Jun 1, 2021 17:30
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i heard imperator rome isn't bad these days, can someone pitch me on it? i tried stellaris again and found out its still boring
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Jun 1, 2021 17:31
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Koramei posted:I'm not 100% versed in it (and I understand it's a bit down to the whims of whatever censor is on the case while looking at whatever piece of media anyway) but it's not as simple as banning everything that depicts a non-unified China / China with different borders at any point in history. There's some standard lines in the state history (e.g. "Tibet became part of China from the Yuan Dynasty"; it can be non-Chinese before but not after) that might get problematic but I think it's only really once you get into the 19th century and the "Century of Humiliation" and so on that it starts getting really sensitive. I'm exaggerating slightly, but it's also pretty much any game with a semi-realistic simulation of politics, like Stellaris, so it honestly doesn't even matter much how we represent China, we're double-triple banned regardless.
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Jun 1, 2021 17:33
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Yeah I imagine pivotal historical events like Three Kingdoms or the Spring and Autumn probably can depict a disunified China without much fuss. The Chinese netizens I talk to are always super stoked when I mention anything to do with Chinese history, so clearly they're taught it and experience it in their media.
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Jun 1, 2021 17:38
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Koramei posted:I'm not 100% versed in it (and I understand it's a bit down to the whims of whatever censor is on the case while looking at whatever piece of media anyway) but it's not as simple as banning everything that depicts a non-unified China / China with different borders at any point in history. There's some standard lines in the state history (e.g. "Tibet became part of China from the Yuan Dynasty"; it can be non-Chinese before but not after) that might get problematic but I think it's only really once you get into the 19th century and the "Century of Humiliation" and so on that it starts getting really sensitive. Wiz posted:I'm exaggerating slightly, but it's also pretty much any game with a semi-realistic simulation of politics, like Stellaris, so it honestly doesn't even matter much how we represent China, we're double-triple banned regardless.
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Jun 1, 2021 17:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That part has always been the one that confuses me the most. The "Century of Humiliation" seems like a pretty powerful propaganda image, so why not let people portray the non-CCP ruled China of the era as just a huge mess? I suppose the alternate history CCP being allowed to do better than the real one would be an issue for Victoria though. The thing it boils down to is that there's no actual solid rule and that is on purpose, because it's much more about giving the government the leeway to ban whatever makes the censors feel funny on that particular day.
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Jun 1, 2021 17:46
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That part has always been the one that confuses me the most. The "Century of Humiliation" seems like a pretty powerful propaganda image, so why not let people portray the non-CCP ruled China of the era as just a huge mess? I suppose the alternate history CCP being allowed to do better than the real one would be an issue for Victoria though. I think its more to do with controlling the way people think about the authority of the government; if a century unending national defeats and chaos is possible then, what stops it from being possible now? Basically a form of Newspeak, by eliminating certain words and meanings you make it difficult for people to imagine the concept. There's also on the other end of the spectrum, the issue of ultranationalism, which is something CCP has difficulty keeping contained and revanchism is a powerful tool that is also a double edged sword.
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Jun 1, 2021 17:52
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Raenir Salazar posted:Yeah I imagine pivotal historical events like Three Kingdoms or the Spring and Autumn probably can depict a disunified China without much fuss. The Chinese netizens I talk to are always super stoked when I mention anything to do with Chinese history, so clearly they're taught it and experience it in their media. misunderstandings of chinese censorship in the west are pretty common. often companies adopt bizarre general rules, such as "no skeletons" (Blizzard), that are more about being extremely careful so as to avoid even the vague possibility of a particularly rigid or protectionist censor deciding they were putting one toe over the line. these rules are taken by a lot of Gamers to be the actual rules that are used by the chinese government, but they aren't. from what i understand chinese media tends to stay within the actual rules, so many of the things that people think are banned in chinese media are, uh, not actually banned. the chinese government absolutely does wield censorship as a tool of protectionism though. that's why western stuff tends to be reviewed with a harsher eye
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Jun 1, 2021 17:52
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Jazerus posted:misunderstandings of chinese censorship in the west are pretty common. often companies adopt bizarre general rules, such as "no skeletons" (Blizzard), that are more about being extremely careful so as to avoid even the vague possibility of a particularly rigid or protectionist censor deciding they were putting one toe over the line. these rules are taken by a lot of Gamers to be the actual rules that are used by the chinese government, but they aren't. from what i understand chinese media tends to stay within the actual rules, so many of the things that people think are banned in chinese media are, uh, not actually banned. Yeah a big thing to bear in mind about Chinese censorship of western media is the power imbalance. Western media makers want access to the Chinese market way more than China wants western media, so sometimes China just kind of flexes simply because they can.
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Jun 1, 2021 17:54
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StashAugustine posted:i heard imperator rome isn't bad these days, can someone pitch me on it? i tried stellaris again and found out its still boring It manages to do both map painting and internal development better than EU4 does them on a mechanical level. There are far less direct impediments to expanding your empire, while there is also a good amount of gentle internal management to build up an imperial core of big, prosperous cities.
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Jun 1, 2021 18:19
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Characters are still kind of poorly implemented, but it is pretty good at this point. However it's also blisteringly short in a way that you REALLY feel it if you aren't planning to sprint from the word go.
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Jun 1, 2021 18:39
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Jazerus posted:misunderstandings of chinese censorship in the west are pretty common. often companies adopt bizarre general rules, such as "no skeletons" (Blizzard), that are more about being extremely careful so as to avoid even the vague possibility of a particularly rigid or protectionist censor deciding they were putting one toe over the line. these rules are taken by a lot of Gamers to be the actual rules that are used by the chinese government, but they aren't. from what i understand chinese media tends to stay within the actual rules, so many of the things that people think are banned in chinese media are, uh, not actually banned. The problem is there are sort of three broad forms of censorship. 1) Actual explicitly censored. Fairly self explanatory, there is a rule that says you can't do X. Not actually that common as far as I'm aware. 2) The sort of unwritten rules or the high level really vague ones that everyone knows exist. For example, I'm not sure there is a rule saying you can't talk about Tiananmen Square in China. Assuming that's true I'm sure there would be one of the vague top level laws that could be used to justify censorship of it, but you just don't talk about it (or at least in ways that aren't CCP approved). 3) Nationalistic ferver by individuals. This is where the big problem comes from (at least in terms of misunderstandings and weird rules). Someone, or a small group, is going to be the one responsible for sheparding your product/material/whatever into the Chinese market. And what they say goes. If they say you need to alter something before they'll let it through, you alter it or it doesn't go through. Maybe there is a law that says that, maybe it's an unwritten rule, or maybe it's because the person/group is 100% on board with re-writing history. Doesn't matter, their way or the highway. And it doesn't matter if someone else didn't have to do it, you still have to do it because you got unlucky. Now spread that out over time and try to figure out what works or what doesn't to get into the market, good luck.
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Jun 1, 2021 18:58
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Dumb question: Is there a good RSS feed for the Dev Diaries?
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Jun 1, 2021 19:07
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Weirds me out how the CCP doesn't want to show the time period before they took over as the complete broken circus that it was during the HOI4 time period.
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Jun 1, 2021 20:02
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Mans posted:Weirds me out how the CCP doesn't want to show the time period before they took over as the complete broken circus that it was during the HOI4 time period. I think it's to avoid giving separatists any legitimacy.
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Jun 1, 2021 20:15
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Mao and the CPC are terribly underpowered and need a +200% morale and soft attack bonus, obviously
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Jun 1, 2021 20:22
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How the gently caress do you get a CCP game off the ground anyway?
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Jun 1, 2021 20:51
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:How the gently caress do you get a CCP game off the ground anyway? You basically have to ignore the strategy that seems to be suggested by the focus tree and proactively invade your neighbours by manually justifying against them, getting them wrapped up before the Japanese invade and everyone joins the united front. If you try to get to the focus that gives you the annex war goals for free, it takes too long to really use them.
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Jun 1, 2021 21:02
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Mans posted:Weirds me out how the CCP doesn't want to show the time period before they took over as the complete broken circus that it was during the HOI4 time period. Aren't they pretty touchy about the fact that Best China did the vast majority of the fighting against the Japanese?
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Jun 1, 2021 21:04
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Aren't they pretty touchy about the fact that Best China did the vast majority of the fighting against the Japanese? """""fighting"""""
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Jun 1, 2021 21:17
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The Cheshire Cat posted:You basically have to ignore the strategy that seems to be suggested by the focus tree and proactively invade your neighbours by manually justifying against them, getting them wrapped up before the Japanese invade and everyone joins the united front. If you try to get to the focus that gives you the annex war goals for free, it takes too long to really use them. I always rush for that focus and get there by Dec 36 and usually cap both by Jan 37. You still have to deal with China and Japan, but it's much easier with infinite manpower and some actual factories and resources under your belt.
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Jun 1, 2021 21:20
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