|
Henry should have just converted to Islam. He could have had four wives and even divorced if he wanted to. A huge missed opportunity
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 07:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 09:14 |
|
|
ilitarist posted:I wouldn't be surprised if someone told me that Cromwell is a national hero because of early republicanism or something. As someone from England I can confirm that Cromwell is not a nationalist hero. Monarchists hate him for killing the king, Irish people and anyone else with morals hate him for murdering hundreds of thousands of Irish people. He's not even really a good figurehead for republican sentiment seeing as he completely dropped the ball on it, became a dictator, alienated a lot of the population by closing theatres and banning Christmas, and then leaving his much less competent son in charge when he died, paving the way for the Monarchy to reestablish itself. You see some of the factions involved in the civil war on Cromwell's side (e.g. the Diggers, the Levellers) held up more as positive early examples of English socialism or republicanism than you see Cromwell himself get lauded for anything outside of maybe being a good military general. The Cheshire Cat posted:As I understand it as a non-Brit, Guy Fawkes is not really an ambiguous figure in the UK (he is the villain), but his image is often used in an ironic way to make a political statement (this is how V for Vendetta was using it). Like the actual historical gunpowder plot was not some sort of radical rebellion against the monarchy or whatever - Guy Fawkes was a religious extremist and specifically wanted a more repressive state (he was angry at the monarchy because of their split from the Catholic church). Bonfire night is basically a big celebration about the fact that he failed. Yeah as SlothfulCobra says it wasn't really a situation where the Catholic option was 'more repressive', it was more about whether the (corrupt) Monarchy should have absolute control over the church, or whether the church should be controlled by an (equally corrupt) papacy in Rome. From a doctrinal point of view, neither option was particuarly more or less repressive, and the Early Anglican Church didn't even really change many of its practices when it broke from Catholocism. Bonfire night is, at this point in England, basically a big celebration of being allowed to make big bonfires and set off fireworks. People aren't really thinking about or celebrating the historical event, it's just an excuse to have a party.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 08:04
|
|
|
The Cheshire Cat posted:As I understand it as a non-Brit, Guy Fawkes is not really an ambiguous figure in the UK (he is the villain), but his image is often used in an ironic way to make a political statement (this is how V for Vendetta was using it). Like the actual historical gunpowder plot was not some sort of radical rebellion against the monarchy or whatever - Guy Fawkes was a religious extremist and specifically wanted a more repressive state (he was angry at the monarchy because of their split from the Catholic church). Bonfire night is basically a big celebration about the fact that he failed. He's a pretty good rapper as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yow_BJeb8TI
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 08:27
|
|
|
Red Bones posted:As someone from England I can confirm that Cromwell is not a nationalist hero. I know you can say a lot of nasty things about him. My point is I wouldn't know how people view him just from studying history. Napoleon is respected even in places he invaded but you can easily make a similar list of grievances about him.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 08:57
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:I know you can say a lot of nasty things about him. My point is I wouldn't know how people view him just from studying history. Napoleon is respected even in places he invaded but you can easily make a similar list of grievances about him.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 09:16
|
|
|
VostokProgram posted:Henry should have just converted to Islam. He could have had four wives and even divorced if he wanted to. A huge missed opportunity While obviously Henry wasn't ever considering conversion, he did put some serious effort into opening diplomatic channels to the Ottomans to try and build an anti-Hapsburg alliance of non-Catholic powers. It didn't really come to anything - England was really too remote for the Ottomans to pay much attention to, but it did lead to some trade links developing; supposedly, England did quite well selling scrap metal from de-consecrated churches and monasteries to the Turks, who then melted it all down and turned it into munitions!
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 09:17
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:I think from what I've heard, what gets emphasized and exaggerated are some of the eccentricities of puritanism like banning Christmas instead of any details about establishing a republic or constitutional legality or the checks and balances of the government he made that parliament kept rejecting. haha, this just gave me a flashback to my British history education where we did indeed spend an inordinate amount of time on the puritans wanting to ban Christmas. I used to resent the fact that my history education was so preoccupied by questions like "how did the Tudors go to the toilet?" and never came close to anything like "how did the United Kingdom form?". But I think we have to be a little forgiving of their weird priorities because they are desperately trying to engage the interests of children, and maybe just beating us over the head with "ordinary people used to live very different kinds of lives" is enough.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 09:24
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:The Napoleonic Wars only killed 5-10 times as many people, in a continent of 200 million. Cromwell was 13-25 times deadlier, and that’s laying all Napoleonic Wars deaths at the feet of Napoleon. So there's a formula about what percentage of the populace you can kill while still being cool, gotcha.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 09:35
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:That's sort of contingent on ignoring how the catholic church could often act as an independent check on monarchs' power in a lot of cases The Church could do that, but at the time of the protestant reformation, didn't, and hadn't for a while. It's not happenstance that Luther nailed his theses to a door soon after the Borgia papacy and while the pope was actually a Medici. The reformation spread like wildfire in the early years because the lower tiers of catholic clergy in Europe converted first as an overt act of disgust against what the church had become. It took until the Council of Trent and the counterreformation before the Popes stopped thinking of Europe beyond Italy as just a piggy bank they could raid to fund their construction projects or their most recent wars in Italy. Even then, it took a while. Hungary went mostly protestant for a while simply because half their clergy died in the Battle of Mohacs and for reasons unclear the Pope didn't confirm their replacements, leaving itinerant protestant preachers as the only game in town.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 09:39
|
|
|
I don't think Guy Fawkes is really a villain or a hero in modern British culture*. I'd actually say there's remarkably little value judgement on what he was attempting to do; most brits know he was trying to blow up parliament, but I expect most couldn't tell you why, and those who could tell you why probably have the context to understand that the matter isn't really black and white. So he's not a monster or a saint, he's just a...guy. *Offer not valid in Lewes, where societal attitudes have not materially changed 1700
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 10:03
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:So there's a formula about what percentage of the populace you can kill while still being cool, gotcha.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 10:20
|
|
|
Do brits still consider Napoléon to be Literal Hitler
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 10:24
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:Don’t be an idiot. The point is that if you’re killing in (mid!) double digit percentages, then your campaign is genocidal, whereas low single digit killing is just regular warmongering. Also, as mentioned, Napoleon was not alone in making war. To put him anywhere near Cromwell is negationist bullshit. Right, so if it's single-digit casualties then it's OK. It becomes clearer and clearer. Like in Spain Napoleonic wars killed ~1 million people (on both sides, but you know, details) which is lower than 10% of 14.7m populace. If he went up to 2m he would probably not be remembered fondly today.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 10:30
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:Right, so if it's single-digit casualties then it's OK. It becomes clearer and clearer. Like in Spain Napoleonic wars killed ~1 million people (on both sides, but you know, details) which is lower than 10% of 14.7m populace. If he went up to 2m he would probably not be remembered fondly today. Are you doing a bit, or are you actually unsure of the difference between warfare and genocide?
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 10:36
|
|
|
Jabor posted:Are you doing a bit, or are you actually unsure of the difference between warfare and genocide? Before this thread, I never saw Cromwell being accused of genocide. I've heard of him being a brutal warlord in Ireland who killed a lot of people, many of them civilians or partisans. If it counts as genocide then OK, but I fail to see how it differs from, say, what Napoleon did during Haitian Revolution or in the Peninsular Campaign.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 11:01
|
|
|
I like Cromwell because a Republican Dictatorship in EU3 gets the Imperialism CB without having to be a monarchy or a revolutionary state.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 11:14
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Do brits still consider Napoléon to be Literal Hitler He was an awful tyrant that we delivered Europe from, bringing liberty to all! (  )
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 11:47
|
|
|
I once had the particular displeasure of working with a British redneck and at one point the conversation happened to turn to the EIC and VOC's struggle for supremacy in Southeast Asia, noting the wars that went on, and said redneck's response was to smugly say "Ah, so we won, of course." On having it explained to him by myself (Taiwanese) and a Chinese guy who was in the conversation that there was a reason why it was called the Dutch East Indies clear up to WW2, he got flustered and muttered "Well, you know, I mean I never studied history and that." That's my story on how well one specific British guy knows his history, thank you and God bless. (Note: The guy also believed that Islam forbade shaving because they hadn't invented shaving back then so this is really more about the idiot being an idiot rather than being a specifically British idiot. I think. I hope.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 11:56
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:Before this thread, I never saw Cromwell being accused of genocide. I've heard of him being a brutal warlord in Ireland who killed a lot of people, many of them civilians or partisans. If it counts as genocide then OK, but I fail to see how it differs from, say, what Napoleon did during Haitian Revolution or in the Peninsular Campaign. One is early insurgency warfare the other is starving half the population of an ethnic group because you want their kind gone.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 12:03
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:Before this thread, I never saw Cromwell being accused of genocide. then I would suggest you're not very familiar with historical analysis of Oliver Cromwell
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 12:04
|
|
|
How can killing nearly one half of a people not be genocide?
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 12:10
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:One is early insurgency warfare the other is starving half the population of an ethnic group because you want their kind gone.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 12:15
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:So the masks were invented by V for Vendetta? Huh, I thought it was built on an existing tradition. See, a lot of stuff here depends on context. I can read a whole book on Cromwell or Gunpowder Plot and still don't understand how they feel in modern culture. It was not invented by V for Vendetta, but it was popularised by it internationally. Guy Fawkes isn’t seen as outright villainous, but rather pitiable. We use Bonfire Night to look down on him (penny for the guy) and then burn him. It’s one of history’s greatest dunks, IMHO.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 12:16
|
|
|
Tomn posted:I once had the particular displeasure of working with a British redneck... The correct nomenclature is gammon. I'd say any brit supportive of Cromwell in 2021 is definitely more wrapped up in sticking it to the Irish/ supporting the positive image of the British empire than any actual care for what he did. The only time I can remember him being in the public discourse was criticism of his statue outside of Parliament, which was wrapped up into the larger discourse over the statue of Cecil Rhodes in Oxford, so I reckon people can imagine how that turned out.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 12:38
|
|
|
John Charity Spring posted:then I would suggest you're not very familiar with historical analysis of Oliver Cromwell If you scroll the thread upward you'll see it's a point I've started with. I don't know a lot about Cromwell but he looks like one of the people who don't care if millions die for their political ambition, and he also made millions die for his political ambition. Napoleon did the same but while he killed millions, no nation lost double digits of their populace. Therefore, I'm told, there's some objective reason why Napoleon can be considered a cool dude, but not Cromwell. A Buttery Pastry posted:Trying to bring in the Peninsular War really undermines the argument. How so? Hundreds of thousands of civilians were deliberately murdered. I know that Napoleon didn't intend to destroy Spanish or Portuguese nations but did Cromwell wanted to exterminate the Irish?
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 12:51
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:did Cromwell wanted to exterminate the Irish? the ones that were not pressed as servants or forced into reservations, yes. the idea that all irishmen had to go "to hell or to Connacht" was probably apocryphal but cromwell and parliament wanted "a total reducement and settlement" of Ireland as their overtly stated goal this is one of those areas where it's important to not get out over your skis. if you think people are downplaying napoleon's atrocities, just say that. emphasizing an equivalence about someone else that you don't know a lot about is a good way to look foolish.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 13:10
|
|
|
No, I don't think people are downplaying Napoleon's atrocities. Coming back to what I wrote initially: "I know you can say a lot of nasty things about him. My point is I wouldn't know how people view him just from studying history. Napoleon is respected even in places he invaded but you can easily make a similar list of grievances about him." And then I was told that he's nothing like Napoleon as if there's some objective measurement by which I can deduce how the person is viewed today. Napoleon is fondly remembered mass-murderer, Caesar is a fondly remembered mass-murderer, Cromwell is (as it turns out) not. I'm surprised at the insistence that there's some objective difference between all of those. I probably shouldn't have gone listing Napoleon's atrocities (cause it looks like whataboutism and an attempt of Cromwell apologism) but I'm not sure how else to underline this point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 13:19
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:, Caesar is a fondly remembered mass-murderer, Cromwell is (as it turns out) not. I'm surprised at the insistence that there's some objective difference between all of those. Napoleon did not.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 13:29
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:Right, so if it's single-digit casualties then it's OK. It becomes clearer and clearer. Like in Spain Napoleonic wars killed ~1 million people (on both sides, but you know, details) which is lower than 10% of 14.7m populace. If he went up to 2m he would probably not be remembered fondly today. okay but seriously has anyone conclusively proven that the irish didn't have it coming? 
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 14:01
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:By who? Caesar, like Cromwell committed genocide. People don’t think about Caesar. Most people think he became Emperor, and if anything, only fought barbarians.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 14:04
|
|
|
Not that I'm here to stan Cromwell but if the English don't like someone I'm automatically well-disposed towards them because if you're pissing off the English you must have done something right. Don't @ me about Hitler.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 14:23
|
|
|
Crazycryodude posted:Not that I'm here to stan Cromwell but if the English don't like someone I'm automatically well-disposed towards them because if you're pissing off the English you must have done something right. Don't @ me about Hitler. Hitler mostly killed wh*te "people" so he's not so bad in my books
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 14:30
|
|
|
pull up thread pull up
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 14:41
|
|
|
hot cocoa on the couch posted:okay but seriously has anyone conclusively proven that the irish didn't have it coming? Crazycryodude posted:Not that I'm here to stan Cromwell but if the English don't like someone I'm automatically well-disposed towards them because if you're pissing off the English you must have done something right. Don't @ me about Hitler. Enjoy posted:Hitler mostly killed wh*te "people" so he's not so bad in my books 
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 14:50
|
|
|
Crazycryodude posted:Not that I'm here to stan Cromwell but if the English don't like someone I'm automatically well-disposed towards them because if you're pissing off the English you must have done something right. Don't @ me about Hitler. He's not actually hated by the English, in a BBC poll for the TV show 100 Greatest Britons, he was #10. A tory plan to refocus history education away from "political correctness" included an unveiling of a proposed "12 greatest britons" that the curriculum could focus on, one of which was Oliver Cromwell. There's a huge fuckin statue of him right outside the Houses of Parliament. The roundheads are the "good guys" in traditional British historical narratives. The regicide and the republic are regarded basically as just getting carried away a touch and having taken things a bit too far, and the atrocities in Ireland are either ignored, downplayed, or justified, depending on what century you're getting your education in.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 14:56
|
|
|
To go back more to talking about cultural context, something I find interesting is that Cao Cao is very much traditionally seen as the villain, see every Dynasty Warriors ever, but when I read Ro3K and especially watched the tv show, I can't see him as anything but the hero and the perfidious Liu Bei as a lying conman.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 15:00
|
|
|
The recent TV show might have gone for a subversion. It's like you'd expect a movie about, I dunno, the siege of Troy, to play with characters a little slightly changing their roles. Otherwise it's the same story again. But I dunno, we need a Chinese person to tell us if the TV show is considered traditional or experimental. And besides, to me, Cao Cao from the TV show looks like a slippery bastard. That whole pig-related shenanigan is the second-best pig plot in the history of TV after Black Mirror.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 15:12
|
|
|
Liu Bei football spiking his baby into the ground: good guy (yeah ok it probably didn't actually happen but lol)
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 15:17
|
|
|
Crazycryodude posted:Not that I'm here to stan Cromwell but if the English don't like someone I'm automatically well-disposed towards them because if you're pissing off the English you must have done something right. Don't @ me about Hitler. Well the English don't mind Cromwell too much, it's really the Irish that have a bone to pick
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 15:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 09:14 |
|
|
Reveilled posted:He's not actually hated by the English, in a BBC poll for the TV show 100 Greatest Britons, he was #10. A tory plan to refocus history education away from "political correctness" included an unveiling of a proposed "12 greatest britons" that the curriculum could focus on, one of which was Oliver Cromwell. There's a huge fuckin statue of him right outside the Houses of Parliament. The only evidence I think I need to determine that Cromwell was a bloodthirsty psychopath.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 15:29
|
|
