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https://twitter.com/BeatriceBodmas/status/1399854175081619457
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Jun 2, 2021 04:30
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Finally finished Umineko Episode 4! There's a lot to unpack here, but one prediction I'm confident in putting down is that Bern gloating about Beatrice being unable to win ever with Lambda is her trying to taunt the player into trying to save Beatrice somehow. She said after episode 2 that Beatrice torturing Rosa was to spur the player into action, and now she's doing it. Probably she realized that Beatrice is a victim of Lambda but having already placed her bets on Battler earlier she can't help her directly. The Tea Party credits scrolled by a little fast but I noticed the mention of Ange dying in 1998. It could be that she died to Kasumi, but I prefer to believe that Eva faked her death and then sniped the guards and Kasumi before moving in to kill Ange, because with this, Eva has inherited not just Kinzo's gold, but his power of "I wouldn't put it past them". Just as we wouldn't put it past Kinzo to build an elaborate pitfall dining room, we wouldn't put it past Eva to fake her death and snipe people. It's like poetry, it rhymes. Also I didn't notice Chiester 00 in the credits, but that seems more like an error than evidence (or just me missing her name). What would that even imply, that the other magic entities are "real" on a level that 00 isn't? There seems like there's a weird hole in Battler's explanation of game 4 with him saying he already explained it earlier even though a lot of that was predicated on the existence of the 18th person? According to Lambda, Beatrice had her own reasons for not fighting back on this, but that's pretty sloppy, Battler! Do better! Kinzo being dead raises a weird question in my mind. Previously, any scene where Magic poo poo happens is Beatrice's explanation of things and not what actually happened, sure. Now, any scene with Kinzo has the same apply, most notably, the time Battler met Kinzo at the end of episode 2. This would mean that my previous assumption of "anything Battler sees (that doesn't involve magic) can be taken as 'real'" is wrong, which raises the question of "what, at this point, can be taken as 'real' beyond red text?" The entire question of "why did everyone tell Battler consistent magic explanations in episode 4" can now be dismissed as "that's just Beatrice's explanation and they didn't actually say that", and I think that's kind of disappointing honestly. Why did Kyrie talk about golden shots through the keyhole? She didn't, that's just Beatrice embellishing! It could certainly turn out in the end that Kyrie telling Battler about golden shots did happen, but there's no reason to believe it did right now. I don't know, something about it just bothers me. fake edit: thinking more about it, that scene was already "dismissable" because it leads to Beatrice's magic party but the point remains of "what can be trusted beyond red text". Where's the cutoff? Should we assume that Genji did in fact ask Battler to come to the study, or was that a lie too? Can any alibis be trusted ever, since unless red-texted they could just be made up by Beatrice? There's the possibility that any "fake" scene has the writing be "off", like the weird scene where Kinzo praises Natsuhi for wearing the family crest on her heart that could be taken as Natsuhi's self-insert fanfiction where she gets the recognition she deserves, but looking into that would require me to reread the entire first 4 episodes again while analyzing each scene to determine whether it seems "real" and I don't feel up to that. I'm going to think up and post my big "what is going on" theory before starting episode 5, but it'll probably be long and take a while so I'll post it in a later post. I'll leave with a stray thought: Whoever staked the bodies in episode 4 got really sloppy with it, piercing the head for multiple twilights, hell, Nanjo and Shannon just have the stakes lying on the floor next to them. I imagine Beatrice's explanation would be that her heart wasn't in it, but I wonder why the human culprit would do it. If they don't care about replicating the epitaph correctly, why even bother with the stakes at all?
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Jun 2, 2021 14:23
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For the Ange stuff, you forgot about Amakusa who had been carrying a bag with a "long object" or whatever it was described as during their little adventure.
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Jun 2, 2021 14:31
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Nate RFB posted:For the Ange stuff, you forgot about Amakusa who had been carrying a bag with a "long object" or whatever it was described as during their little adventure. I was going to say she left him behind, but he'd probably be a poor bodyguard if he listened to that. Not good enough to save Ange from dying though!
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Jun 2, 2021 15:14
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Irony Be My Shield posted:IMO you should trust the author and engage with a story on its own terms rather than assuming it's going to be bad with no meaning to the decisions it makes. There's a great game on this subject called Umineko no Naku Koro ni Yeah, though in practice this is easier said than done (since most of the time trying to seek something more from fictional media is futile and definitely not worth replaying/watching/reading, etc). This is why I think a lot of people who read the game want to reassure new people reading it that there's something worthwhile there, since it's really difficult to pick up on everything with a single play-through (since most people probably aren't going to know how to think about what they're reading until they're already in the episodes 5-8).
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Jun 2, 2021 15:35
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Mix. posted:if you're talking about the stuff with meiko at the very end then yes, its a backdoor connection into a previous VN the writer did that that's confirmed to be the same world. (said VN actually got a steam remaster last year, it just doesn't have an English option/localization announced at time of posting) Which game is this? DMLC?
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Jun 2, 2021 16:45
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thark posted:Which game is this? DMLC? Yeah, that's the one. I don't have context because, well, I haven't played it, but from my understanding it takes place like a decade after Raging Loop as Meiko is a high school student at that point and is one of the main cast, and its supposed to be some kind of reveal that the two characters are the same person and not just sharing a name
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Jun 2, 2021 17:15
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Mix. posted:Yeah, that's the one. I don't have context because, well, I haven't played it, but from my understanding it takes place like a decade after Raging Loop as Meiko is a high school student at that point and is one of the main cast, and its supposed to be some kind of reveal that the two characters are the same person and not just sharing a name Sweet. Had no idea this was out on steam. I loved RL and I read japanese so that's an easy buy.
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Jun 2, 2021 17:37
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(Higurashi ep6) I haven't played further yet, but this screen has very "photos taken seconds before disaster" energy.
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Jun 2, 2021 21:29
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Procrastine posted:but that's pretty sloppy, Battler! Do better! Umineko.txt 
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Jun 2, 2021 21:52
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https://store.steampowered.com/app/1546920/Overboard/ more of an adventure game then a vn but posting this here because it'll probably appeal to a lot of in the thread
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Jun 3, 2021 01:25
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Snooze Cruise posted:https://store.steampowered.com/app/1546920/Overboard/ Oh man that’s a fascinating idea for a game. And it’s done by the 80 days crew so I’m sure it will be superbly written.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:50
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Snooze Cruise posted:https://store.steampowered.com/app/1546920/Overboard/ I bought it, hopefully I play it for more than 30 minutes like I did with 80 days
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Jun 3, 2021 02:39
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Bought Overboard!, played through a few cycles to the credits, thought it was fun but about as short as you'd expect a game brought from ideation to release in just a few months would be. It did hold up decently well to me deliberately trying to trigger inconsistent narrative states! Overall a solid way to burn an afternoon. Then I checked the Steam achievements and realized there's a decent amount of stuff I didn't even realize was possible. The biggest route divergence seems to be between trying to murder everyone aboard vs trying to set up the perfect trial outcome vs going for weird side goals. There's also an achievement for getting a "good ending" within two in-game hours which I have absolutely no idea how to attack.
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Jun 3, 2021 20:23
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It's pretty cool, between this and 80 Day's I've got a feeling the Devs played The Last Express and really loved it. That said It's got a few problems. The way the UI is designed can be very frustrating, as is the skip option. It would also be nice to be able to rewind by an hour or so instead of just a scene I threw a run by accident cause I forgot to take the sleeping pills. Still haven't gotten the perfect run yet, I keep getting distracted with nonsense instead of framing Clarissa
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Jun 3, 2021 20:45
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Gaius Marius posted:Godspeed onto Chapter three young frogling. I love how everyone who reads Umineko reads their own works into it, I with Faust, Dante's Divine Comedy, and The Count of Monte Cristo and you with the Cryptonomicon. Truly each viewers perspective is unique and interesting to view  can’t believe I didn’t catch the Dante nods, even though everyone insists on pronouncing Some brief thoughts a short way into episode 3 – thought I’d get these down now rather than wait through the end as this chapter is moving noticeably faster towards murder o’clock than the previous ones. I’m currently at the part where the siblings are discussing the possibility of Kinzo secluding his mistress somewhere on the island. The fact that they’re all so ready to accept it suggests it’s probably not as simple as that but it would make a lot of sense wrt the presence of a 19th person. The opening shows some iteration of Beatrice as a little girl, living in fear of her ‘Grandfather’ and being cared for by an older woman called Beatrice – perhaps old Beatrice is the original ‘alchemist’, who gave Kinzo the gold, and young Beatrice is a descendant or ward raised to think of Kinzo as her grandfather? I don’t think the ages work for her to be his actual granddaughter but who knows. But if the original Beatrice is right there in the secret mansion, why does Kinzo act as though he can never see her? Alternative theory – she’s a figment of the young Beatrice’s imagination, just like witch Beatrice becomes for everyone else on the island. Ronove is an interesting wrinkle in the plot – I would be ready just to write him off as another sleight of hand to conceal the mundane explanation, like the demonic schoolgirls, except for the fact I’m sure that he’s a butler and Genji’s surname was Ronoue, pronounced in exactly the same way. Coincidentally, Genji's surname isn’t listed in the menu. I’ve been suspicious of Genji ever since chapter 1, and he’s by far the most likely person to be able to fake the letters and collect the ring from Kinzo, which is exactly what he does in this introduction. Maybe making his role explicit is meta-Beatrice's way of making the game fairer? Finally a question for any Japanese speakers who’ve read Umineko – Maria’s catchphrase ”Beatrice ‘exists’” always seems to be written with the quotation marks around 'exists', which sticks out whenever I read it. Is that just an awkward translation, or is it actually reflecting something specific in Japanese? e: also also I really hope this stuff with Battler only having vague memories of his cousins, and possibly seeming different to his old self, isn't setting up a "the person you thought you were playing as was really someone completely different" twist, I've had enough of that from Uchikoshi Gato fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jun 3, 2021 |
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Jun 3, 2021 21:21
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Gato posted:Finally a question for any Japanese speakers who’ve read Umineko – Maria’s catchphrase ”Beatrice ‘exists’” always seems to be written with the quotation marks around 'exists', which sticks out whenever I read it. Is that just an awkward translation, or is it actually reflecting something specific in Japanese? I remember this happening, but can you give a specific point where this happens, so I can check on Japanese Youtube what it says in Japanese? Edit: found one in English. going to check Japanese now Edit 2: So in Japanese the "い"る is used. いる is just the normal Japanese word for a person's existence (also used for saying a person IS somewhere). Though the quotation is interesting. In Japanese, quotations like this are typically used for emphasis (though I've never seen it on only part of a word before), so I assume the point is to emphasize that they exist as a person, rather than as a concept like ある would imply. I honestly don't know why the translation didn't use italics or bold or something though, since obviously in English quotations typically mean the opposite, where it implies its either false or not quite as it seems. MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jun 3, 2021 |
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Jun 3, 2021 21:38
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MegaZeroX posted:I remember this happening, but can you give a specific point where this happens, so I can check on Japanese Youtube what it says in Japanese? probably playing with fire trying to find this, but here's a clip with a different English translation, which interestingly doesn't use the quote marks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN4M1KMvYiY&t=1148s
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Jun 3, 2021 21:55
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Gato posted:probably playing with fire trying to find this, but here's a clip with a different English translation, which interestingly doesn't use the quote marks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN4M1KMvYiY&t=1148s Also should that at that point in the Japanese version doesn't do it either. And I just edited my previous post with the explanation, and yeah, its kind of a bad translation choice to use quotation marks. Reminds me of this:  I said this in the spoilers, so I'll reiterate to everyone that quotations in Japanese means emphasis, while in English it obviously typically implies the statement is false or misleading. Edit: for those who want to see it used in Japanese (chapter 1 tea party spoilers): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2iNmfNKDmI&t=1532s Its actually used 3 times in a row, followed by a usage without it so you can see the difference, though note it is conjugated differently MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jun 3, 2021 |
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Jun 3, 2021 22:05
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That's interesting, I always took it as just emphasis from the voice acting. Could do it as something like "Beatrice exists. Beatrice lives!".
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Jun 4, 2021 01:12
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Ten hours in World's End Club and I just hit the credits. Well, um, I presume this is not remotely the last credits sequence in the game knowing Uchikoshi's other games and all that. I'm still having a lot of fun with it: it's just presented really cutely and every single one of the characters is charming. Runs really good on the Switch, too. Is what I just hit where the original release of the game ended? because if so that's a -really- dickish way to tell your players to come back in a year for the finished product
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Jun 4, 2021 07:05
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Thanks for taking the time to work this out, it's interesting. I'll have to keep an eye out for quotation marks being used for emphasis in other Japanese translated stuff now
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Jun 4, 2021 21:30
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So anybody read Rappaccini's Daughter by Nathaniel Hawthorne? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rappaccini%27s_Daughter It just got looked at in a Literature podcast I listen to and it seems like it might have some parallels with Umineko
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Jun 4, 2021 22:24
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Sharkitten posted:Ten hours in World's End Club and I just hit the credits. Well, um, I presume this is not remotely the last credits sequence in the game knowing Uchikoshi's other games and all that. I'm still having a lot of fun with it: it's just presented really cutely and every single one of the characters is charming. Runs really good on the Switch, too. Original release let you go a bit farther onto the second ending path, but it cut off before the last few levels. Still REALLY mean.
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Jun 5, 2021 01:41
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Umineko Episode 5 Spoilers: Erika winks like this and it's disturbing
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Jun 5, 2021 14:02
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Well, finally finished Baldr Sky. My file is showing an absolutely absurd 96 hours played - there's a lot of alt-tab time there, and I did chase several bad endings "manually" before I learned there would eventually be a scenario skip. But what a ride. Fantastic game. You hardly need the recommendation of some schlub like me to play one of the highest rated VNs on VNDB, but I'm here to give it anyway! Some spoiler thoughts Ok, just right off the bat I have to comment on just how kind this game is to its players. Normal / Bad endings were pretty brutal, but without exception the good endings were really, really good, and then the final route ended up being sugar on top for all of them. Then the true ending was like... the most sugary good ending you could have asked for. and I absolutely love it. There's a time and place for a melancholic or somber ending, but after a behemoth this big (and everything poor Kou and Sora have been through) I wanted nothing but victory laps, and boy did I get those in spades. I really loved the story, especially its structure. Before I got into VNs I actually assumed all route-based games worked like this game does: the events are largely the same, but your perspective is constantly changing. It allowed the writers to explore some complex characters and issues to their fullest. For that reason I wasn't a huge fan of the last route in general. There was a bit too much quantum magic and weird AI nonsense for my liking. By the end I had really lost the thread as to what was real and concrete. Given the themes of the game I think that was on purpose, but it did remove a lot of the stakes and urgency I felt. Still, I absolutely love all the characters, the Sora love story is very sweet, and I'm extremely happy that the endings wrapped everything up so neatly. It was like playing a far less cruel and emotionally manipulative version of Muv-Luv Alternative And finally: I saw something in some guide early on that implied Gilbert would be redeemed at the end. The more the game went on the more that idea made me mad - Gilbert is very much NOT a character to be redeemed. But I laughed for a full minute straight when I got to the moment that the guide was talking about. Kou lived rent free in the guy's head... and that was precisely what allowed Kou to be saved from the ego merge. That's a very clever and fun way to use a dirtbag character like him. WarpDogs fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 07:06
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 Seems of potential interest to this thread: a preview for Ciconia Phase 2 was released a couple of days ago. The text up there is Toujirou talking to a hacker about an 8MS that will turn the sea red. Edit: Now with translation link, if you want. Maybe the full thing will actually release in your lifetime after all! Hogama fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Jun 7, 2021 |
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Jun 7, 2021 04:33
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somehow actually remember most of my thoughts and theories about phase 1 but please come soon who knows how much longer i can keep these memories
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Jun 7, 2021 04:37
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Finished Umineko Episode 5: Some good moments, but not my favourite. Not a big fan of witch politics/debates given that magic has been firmly established as only true in people's minds. That said I wish Beatrice hadn't given up quite so hard. The rivalry between her and Battler is the heart of the game and the rug just got pulled away. I'm expecting the next episode to be a bit of filler before the home stretch, especially since one of the big teases is the ability to have solved the mystery by now. A question: Given how popular Knox's rules are in Japanese orthodox mysteries, has any work in Japan addressed the kinda racist 5th rule? The English translation of Umineko acts like it doesn't exist at all
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Jun 8, 2021 14:02
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fez_machine posted:Finished Umineko Episode 5: Some good moments, but not my favourite. Not a big fan of witch politics/debates given that magic has been firmly established as only true in people's minds. That said I wish Beatrice hadn't given up quite so hard. The rivalry between her and Battler is the heart of the game and the rug just got pulled away. The 5th rule was actually created in response to racist tropes common in early 20th century mysteries. Basically it was super common for some mysterious slick, smart, but immoral Asian dude to show up, and when they did, they were always did it or at least aided the killer. If they weren't, then that itself was meant to be a twist. It is probably worth seeing the full text of the fifth rule to see what he was trying to get at. So then whether Japanese mysteries have followed it can be broke into two types. Has a Japanese mystery story not used racist stereotype? Yeah, I would say so. Has a Japanese mystery story not included any Asian people? Probably somewhere, though it is obviously uncommon.
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Jun 8, 2021 14:42
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MegaZeroX posted:The 5th rule was actually created in response to racist tropes common in early 20th century mysteries. Basically it was super common for some mysterious slick, smart, but immoral Asian dude to show up, and when they did, they were always did it or at least aided the killer. If they weren't, then that itself was meant to be a twist. It is probably worth seeing the full text of the fifth rule to see what he was trying to get at. In case people don't wanna google for it, here's Knox's justification for the 5th rule... as sourced from a detective literature analysis book by J. K. Van Dover (2010), since I couldn't find the original publication. Unfortunately Van Dover's citation isn't included in the Google Books snippet  "I see no reason in the nature of things why a Chinaman should spoil a detective story. But as a matter of fact, if you are turning over the pages of an unknown romance in a bookstore, and come across some mention of the narrow, slit-like eyes of Chin Loo, avoid that story; it is bad."
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Jun 8, 2021 15:04
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Yeah it's criticising a racial stereotype that was common at the time. Umineko would never have an inscrutable, evil foreigner as its villain so the rule clearly isn't relevant
Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 15:07
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Steely Glint posted:In case people don't wanna google for it, here's Knox's justification for the 5th rule... as sourced from a detective literature analysis book by J. K. Van Dover (2010), since I couldn't find the original publication. Unfortunately Van Dover's citation isn't included in the Google Books snippet I've personally always used this as my reference. It references a later publication (1939), but that's generally good enough. "V. No Chinaman must figure in the story. Why this should be so I do not know, unless we can find a reason for it in our western habit of assuming that the Celestial is over - equipped in the matter of brains, and under - equipped in the matter of morals. I only offer it as a fact of observation that, if you are turning over the pages of a book and come across some mention of 'the slit - like eyes of Chin Loo', you had best put it down at once; it is bad. The only exception which occurs to my mind - there are probably others - is Lord Ernest Hamilton's Four Tragedies of Memworth."
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Jun 8, 2021 18:27
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 Thanks Spotify
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Jun 9, 2021 17:26
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Discovering that Umineko is multiple War and Peaces long was a mistake. But I will complete it!
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Jun 9, 2021 21:01
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I wish it was longer. I wish I could go back
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Jun 9, 2021 21:38
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Gaius Marius posted:I wish it was longer. I wish I could go back Maybe it's time for you to read another Ryuukishi07 work then points at Higurashi
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Jun 9, 2021 21:46
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MegaZeroX posted:Maybe it's time for you to read another Ryuukishi07 work then points at Higurashi The ADTRW VN thread is for Higurashi. Games is strictly Umineko.
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Jun 9, 2021 22:11
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there's another vn thread? wtf
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Jun 9, 2021 22:25
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| # ? Jun 4, 2024 09:51 |
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MegaZeroX posted:Maybe it's time for you to read another Ryuukishi07 work then points at Higurashi fez_machine posted:The ADTRW VN thread is for Higurashi. Games is strictly Umineko. brb, reporting every Umineko post I can find in the other thread now. Jokes aside, Higurashi is a good read so far from what I've got through, but it may not feature the copious amount of Battler bullying that I expect Umineko has. From what little I do know of Umineko I'd expect that a lot of things will be different due to the setups/characters/etc used in each, but Ryukishi07's writing is still good in the end sure. Sharkitten posted:there's another vn thread? wtf I'm too lazy to check if you've posted over there or not to be 100% sure, but yeah: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3912539 It likely shares a good few folks from over in here anyway, and is currently being filled full of Higurashi stuff since another poster and myself are both about the same place in it and are talking theory stuff as we go along.
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Jun 9, 2021 22:30
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