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It's very easy for take-homes to be abusive of your time, because the time they're demanding from you is not connected to anything that they're putting in. Interviews much less so - every hour of interviewing eats up >1 hour of time from somebody currently on their payroll, so there's at least a little bit of an incentive on both sides to be respectful of each other's time.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:53
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kitten smoothie posted:My favorite take home was where I was given an app with a few bugs to fix, and maybe two or three places where core functionality had to be implemented (and it was only like ten lines in each spot). This is what my ideal job interview would be once I get the time and power. I’d give the applicant a giant ball of code that implements a few APIs, and ask them to implement a new API based on a ticket. The code mostly works, there’s some test coverage, a few bugs, and a git history that’s kinda logical. Pretend I’m a senior programmer and product owner and ask any questions. You have one hour.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:55
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Every time I think of the state of interviewing in this industry I'm reminded that every single educational outcome from NCLB that was related to standardized testing, beyond raw score, decreased as educators were required to "teach to the test." And yet, if we just keep building a system that tests toy problems and rewards rote memorization rather than critical thinking of course it'll be more effective, right? We're tech gods! We definitely know better than decades of pedagogical research!
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Jun 3, 2021 12:55
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Blinkz0rz posted:And yet, if we just keep building a system that tests toy problems and rewards rote memorization rather than critical thinking of course it'll be more effective, right? We're tech gods! We definitely know better than decades of pedagogical research! What they really want to do -- but can't, because it would be considered distasteful or illegal -- is to just give an IQ test. At least an IQ test wouldn't force you to memorize a ton of Data Structures 301 algorithms that have almost no applicability or exist as standard libraries.
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Jun 3, 2021 13:32
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B-Nasty posted:What they really want to do -- but can't, because it would be considered distasteful or illegal -- is to just give an IQ test. Oh yes, I'm well aware. Which is truly ironic because again decades of study has proven there's no correlation between IQ and critical thinking and a tenuous link at best to non-IQ test problem solving ability. For such supposedly smart folks our industry truly has no concept of what makes for a good engineering employee.
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Jun 3, 2021 13:40
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If I'm ever on a panel to hire my own replacement or something I'm just gonna give a thumbs-up to literally every candidate. Edit: My current job had me do a FizzBuzz and not one with any variation. They were shocked when I did "if x % 15 == 0" instead of "if x % 3 == 0 && x % 5 == 0". CPColin fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Jun 3, 2021 |
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Jun 3, 2021 14:46
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The other day, I concluded a 4 hour long series of interviews for a customer-facing engineering role at a startup. I prepared a case study of a previous success, crushed the technical portion, basically just hit everything out of the park. At the end, the CEO asked if I'd be willing to work nonstop until forced to take a break as my mental health visibly crumbled. I told him I wouldn't and I didn't get an offer. It's reasonable in some sense that my having a life outside of work may make me unhireable to some people, but it's stupid to put an easy disqualifier at the end of the process.
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Jun 3, 2021 14:52
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I will definitely grant that a take-home is a good way to evaluate technical skills, and is better in the vast majority of cases than whiteboarding. However, honestly the two big things I'm looking for in an interview are a) that the interviewee is not an rear end in a top hat, and b) that they can communicate effectively. Lots of people can write code to spec, but if you can't communicate what your plan is, why you're making the decisions you are, or why I should make different decisions than the ones I have planned, then your potential value to the team is greatly reduced. So how do we test that? (Note that I'm not saying that whiteboarding interviews evaluate either of those two things either)
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Jun 3, 2021 14:53
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rt4 posted:The other day, I concluded a 4 hour long series of interviews for a customer-facing engineering role at a startup. I prepared a case study of a previous success, crushed the technical portion, basically just hit everything out of the park. At the end, the CEO asked if I'd be willing to work nonstop until forced to take a break as my mental health visibly crumbled. I told him I wouldn't and I didn't get an offer. At least they're honest.
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Jun 3, 2021 14:54
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I’m gonna be real, most people you interview are all going to perform at about the same level once you hire them unless they’re notably experienced. There’s a lot of us out there, and we’re not that different. Being picky doesn’t get you much unless the choice is obvious.
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Jun 3, 2021 15:18
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I will definitely grant that a take-home is a good way to evaluate technical skills, and is better in the vast majority of cases than whiteboarding. However, honestly the two big things I'm looking for in an interview are a) that the interviewee is not an rear end in a top hat, and b) that they can communicate effectively. Lots of people can write code to spec, but if you can't communicate what your plan is, why you're making the decisions you are, or why I should make different decisions than the ones I have planned, then your potential value to the team is greatly reduced. So how do we test that? A couple jobs ago one of the principals would give someone a piece of paper with an API on it and ask them how they would build a feature on top of it. I think you can do a lot with that approach. I've been trying to figure out how to adapt that for a scientific programming/data science role but there's no obvious analogue.
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Jun 3, 2021 15:22
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leper khan posted:The negotiation thread would tell you to get some offers. It's definitely easier to increase salary that way. Guinness posted:Do both, they are not mutually exclusive. asur posted:Trying to get an out of band raise at review time is a losing game. You need to prepare your manager months in advance so that they can navigate the arcane confines of compensation and find the best way to get you the raise. Or you can take the easy path and get a new job. Yeah, it's unfortunate, but I think getting a new job is gonna be a lot easier. Especially now that companies are going all-in on remote work. My main problem is that I really want to get enough data points on my resume to say that yeah, I qualify for L4. I'm like 65% to "green" on L4 as my company puts it, where L4 owns projects and the deployments of them, makes technical decisions about the long-term health of products and codebases, and does a lot of sharing of domain knowledge. I feel like I have enough examples of that to justify being hired as an L4, but like...I want more, just to make drat sure that I can prove how valuable I truly am. The reason I want to stay is that I have good standing in the company (I am well liked and regarded as very reliable and good at delivering projects), and that there's still potential senior-level opportunities that I want to take. I'm scared to go job hunting because I'm scared that employers won't see it that way, and that it'll turn out I'm a lot less useful than I think I am. How do you combat that worry? If it's even reasonable. 
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Jun 3, 2021 15:32
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Pollyanna posted:How do you combat that worry? If it's even reasonable. You're not going to know how you'll fare on the job market until you start applying.
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Jun 3, 2021 15:36
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ultrafilter posted:You're not going to know how you'll fare on the job market until you start applying. Fair... I wonder if I should bother responding to recruiters now. I’m getting bugged by people at places like Zillow ‘n poo poo. Though I’ll prolly simply skip that and work the goon network, like I did for my current place.
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Jun 3, 2021 15:43
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rt4 posted:The other day, I concluded a 4 hour long series of interviews for a customer-facing engineering role at a startup. I prepared a case study of a previous success, crushed the technical portion, basically just hit everything out of the park. At the end, the CEO asked if I'd be willing to work nonstop until forced to take a break as my mental health visibly crumbled. I told him I wouldn't and I didn't get an offer. I turned down an offer I really wanted to get when I found out you were expected to work 10 hours a day on average and "more as needed to meet milestones". Not working overtime "could damage your KPIs and result in pay cuts". The very average pay didn't really help either.
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Jun 3, 2021 15:46
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Pollyanna posted:I wonder if I should bother responding to recruiters now. I’m getting bugged by people at places like Zillow ‘n poo poo. Though I’ll prolly simply skip that and work the goon network, like I did for my current place. My general rule is that if an internal recruiter reaches out with something I'd be interested in I'll apply. External recruiters are completely worthless, though, and do not receive the time of day.
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Jun 3, 2021 15:52
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ultrafilter posted:My general rule is that if an internal recruiter reaches out with something I'd be interested in I'll apply. External recruiters are completely worthless, though, and do not receive the time of day. 100% this Internal recruiters are good to talk to, and if they reach out to you first you’re practically guaranteed at least a phone interview And Zillow is a decent place I know folks that work there, you could do way worse
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Jun 3, 2021 16:00
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Pollyanna posted:The reason I want to stay is that I have good standing in the company (I am well liked and regarded as very reliable and good at delivering projects), and that there's still potential senior-level opportunities that I want to take. I'm scared to go job hunting because I'm scared that employers won't see it that way, and that it'll turn out I'm a lot less useful than I think I am. I definitely can relate to that and am going through some of the same thoughts. At the end of the day, I remember that there's a reason I got to a level of respect here and that it will 100% carry over in a new position. I like to have a written list of things I've accomplished that I know were objectively challenging, and also to keep a list of messages I've received from folks I trust when they've shared positive feedback/praise/etc. Basically, have some sort of "build up my confidence" document lying around that you can always use to combat those feelings of uncertainty/unworthiness  It's always scary starting somewhere new where you don't have that level of trust built up, but at the end of the day you have to decide if the task of rebuilding new relationships somewhere else is a worthy barrier to cross in exchange for a pay raise/better mgmt/etc. That's not always gonna be the case, and I think that's why you always run into those developers who have been in a company for 5+ years. Sometimes that level of comfort is strong enough to just stay at a place. As far as recruiters go, I think I've gotten lucky and have had decent experience with external recruiters, but I make sure to ask tons of questions and be super picky and if a single red flag shows up I  immediately. The amount of recruiters I get reaching out about Java because I have JavaScript on my linkedin is pretty laughable
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Jun 3, 2021 19:10
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kitten smoothie posted:What I really like about it was somewhat representative of Doing The Actual Job, and there was clarity in the problem with a very limited scope.
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Jun 3, 2021 21:51
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How do you tell what level of "gently caress this" you're on? Like I can't tell if I'm just surface level bored because ${newjob} isn't really that exciting or it's time for some mid-life crises change of career shenanigans.
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Jun 3, 2021 23:34
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Xik posted:How do you tell what level of "gently caress this" you're on? Like I can't tell if I'm just surface level bored because ${newjob} isn't really that exciting or it's time for some mid-life crises change of career shenanigans. At my last job, I could gauge it by how actively I wished I'd get hit by a bus on the way to work:catch the flu and how realistic the plans in my head to go apply to flip burgers at Wendy's were in case I needed to ragequit. It was different from your situation in that it was quite toxic, so while I was extremely unhappy and burned out, it was over the environment and the people, not necessarily the nature of the work/field. I basically have the same title and very similar role at my current job and am much happier because it's not toxic.
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Jun 4, 2021 01:11
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Still re: takehome - I also think that it's important, if you're doing a takehome, that you allow the ability to share and talk about a personal project or other existing code rather than the take-home. I've done that in the past where I submit a single simple project to multiple companies (granted only one company beyond the first accepted it, but that's a fine filter to me). We really need to deal with the algo/prove your work part of the process within our field. Certifications suck butt, but they're a strong part of other industries. We're programmers, so doing something with technology is preferable, but super easy to fake. Hackerrank, for example, was a good idea, but copy/paste for solutions is going to just make that an exercise in google (also not a bad skill for a programmer). Honestly, it's something that github/bitbucket/gitlab could probably solve for through analysis tools. Something like Codeclimate Velocity that can do some data analysis on what you've committed, how long you've been working in various bits of tech, and if your pace has changed. If you can trust that someone can code, then you can spend most of your interviews on, "is this guy a jerk?" Velocity was also nice while I had it for reviewing with some of our JR team members. Set mine up to show PR reviews, time-to-merge, rewrite rate, and some other things that felt like I was able to provide some solid insight and even compare between developers to verify some of the "gut feeling" stuff that I had anecdotally observed. I miss Velocity. RIP budgets
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Jun 4, 2021 16:20
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kayakyakr posted:Hackerrank, for example, was a good idea, but copy/paste for solutions is going to just make that an exercise in google (also not a bad skill for a programmer). I don't remember what it was, but some time ago I had a Hackerrank-like site sent to me for an interview and at some point I alt tabbed for whatever reason, and upon coming back I had a message saying that if I unfocused their tab again I'd be out. 
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Jun 4, 2021 16:44
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marumaru posted:I don't remember what it was, but some time ago I had a Hackerrank-like site sent to me for an interview and at some point I alt tabbed for whatever reason, and upon coming back I had a message saying that if I unfocused their tab again I'd be out. Clearly anybody that couldn't find the dynamic programming solution to a graph traversal problem would be too stupid to have a second computer at hand to look things up. Why, they'd be too stupid to even think of using their phone!
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Jun 4, 2021 18:06
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I've found something even worse than dumb algorithm tests: this new trend of recording a short video about yourself. Several postings I've looked at had this awful "record a 2-minute video talking about yourself" section. I'm not a youtuber. I don't want to record a video of myself. This sucks. (That's after about 10 long text fields asking you to write mini essays about various things that are very clearly written on my resume)
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Jun 4, 2021 19:15
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Hah! Maybe all those years of table topics in Toastmasters will finally pay off!
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Jun 4, 2021 20:20
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While I agree that it's kinda pointless, you're prolly going to be asked to do exactly that live in front of your new team when you introduce yourself. Or maybe they're trying to just avoid candidates attempting to get their offscreen buddy to answer questions while they lipsync along: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47mfohGyeBg
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Jun 4, 2021 20:31
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marumaru posted:I've found something even worse than dumb algorithm tests: this new trend of recording a short video about yourself. Oh my god. If this becomes commonplace I guess I'll just try to hold onto my existing job for as long as possible because I'm sure as gently caress not making a goddamn selfie video as part of a job application. I'd rather do the algorithm poo poo. Is this some bullshit way of trying to be relatable to gen z tiktokers or something? That's the only reason I can think of besides trying to prevent those bait & switch scams. I'd submit an animated slide show version of my resume with a note that I have a personal policy against taking insipid selfies of myself and that I'd happily submit alternate proof that I am who I say I am if that's what they're after. Maybe just the note part.
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Jun 4, 2021 20:47
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I'd just link them my Twitch stream. It's on my resume anyway. I have a big ol QR code that links directly to Twitch.
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Jun 4, 2021 20:52
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I'd just link them my Twitch stream. It's on my resume anyway. I have a big ol QR code that links directly to Twitch. Yes but how will they know they're not getting the person with the Twitch stream instead of the person that solved all their other programming problems?
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Jun 4, 2021 21:29
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It's also a terrible idea because it introduces bias. Wasn't there some study from a while back where resumes were rated more harshly if the name at the top was female-gendered vs male, with no other changes? Imagine what it'll look like if the resume also now obviously includes the candidate's sex, race, accent, attractiveness, nervous tics, haircut, and speaking style.
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Jun 4, 2021 22:02
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minato posted:It's also a terrible idea because it introduces bias. Wasn't there some study from a while back where resumes were rated more harshly if the name at the top was female-gendered vs male, with no other changes? Imagine what it'll look like if the resume also now obviously includes the candidate's sex, race, accent, attractiveness, nervous tics, haircut, and speaking style. I've definitely seen the study for traditionally white vs 'foreign'. Whitey gets way more callbacks with the same resume.
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Jun 4, 2021 22:18
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Apparently some people attach photos of themselves to their resumes which is just bonkers to me. What relevant information could that possibly add?
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Jun 4, 2021 22:40
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HappyHippo posted:Apparently some people attach photos of themselves to their resumes which is just bonkers to me. What relevant information could that possibly add?
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Jun 4, 2021 22:45
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In some other countries it's standard for a resume/CV to include a photo.
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Jun 4, 2021 22:57
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minato posted:It's also a terrible idea because it introduces bias. Wasn't there some study from a while back where resumes were rated more harshly if the name at the top was female-gendered vs male, with no other changes? Imagine what it'll look like if the resume also now obviously includes the candidate's sex, race, accent, attractiveness, nervous tics, haircut, and speaking style. I was looking for jobs overseas a while back, and some of them asked for a video like that. My friend who lives there said it was basically how they determine you're a white dude. So yeah, it's definitely a thing, and it's terrible.
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Jun 4, 2021 23:03
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FMguru posted:"I'm white" Yeah but there are way easier ways to announce this. I once received a resume forwarded from HR that had this poo poo in the header: PROUD WHITE US CITIZEN No video necessary!
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Jun 5, 2021 00:09
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i assume he got the job right?
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Jun 5, 2021 03:08
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why would you not hire a proud patriot like that?!
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Jun 5, 2021 03:37
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qsvui posted:i assume he got the job right? No but it was a whole loving thing. I turned down the resume but made the mistake of telling HR why, and they insisted I phone screen him anyway because to not would be “reverse racism.” He slept through our first call and HR made us call him again - this time he failed our screen outright so that was that. The kind of interesting part was that his resume was an RTF file and depending on the application you used to open it the drat thing rendered differently. Most people genuinely couldn’t see the PROUD WHITE US CITIZEN banner in Wordpad. I guess there’s an advantage to YouTube - everyone’s viewing the same disaster unfold. On top of everything else this dude’s given and apparently legal name was “Latency.” He surely would have slain at the network server job we were hiring for. redleader posted:why would you not hire a proud patriot like that?! It’s all part of my plot to bring down the bourgeois capitalist American pigs 
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Jun 5, 2021 04:24
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