(Thread IKs:
Nuns with Guns)
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thetoughestbean posted:Well I’m not exactly looking for approval of opera likers If you don’t have both it feels like a disservice to the medium in their eyes.
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Jun 7, 2021 22:03
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| # ? May 30, 2024 11:42 |
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Ebert sucked for being a huge anti-horror snob/concerned mom back in the day. Gene Siskel went above and beyond being a shithead though, publishing the address of Betsy Palmer after Friday The 13th so that people could harass her. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jun 7, 2021 |
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Jun 7, 2021 22:07
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Arcsquad12 posted:[stuff about Bioshock, Spec Ops The Line, Kotor 2] It's telling how the wellspring all the "this proves games are art" games draw from involves toying with player agency. Too many of the great games are just naval-gazing about the medium. And y'all joking about Peggle, but I'd 100% buy that it's a more artistic work than something like KOTOR 2. Rockit posted:Hot take: Gaming solved ebert’s issues with the adventure game genre at least with I have no mouth and I must scream. How many people are aware that Ebert wrote a glowing review of an adventure game, Cosmology of Kyoto, back in 1994? Edit: okay, so at least one person was aware.
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Jun 7, 2021 22:09
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Funny thing by Ebert's definition of art, video games are not art, but let's plays are. His sticking point was that art has to be a linear experience decided in advance. Which honestly can't say is a terrible personal definition, but there is a large amount of old curmudgeon in taking so long to acknowledge this is not a universal definition.
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Jun 7, 2021 22:11
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Schwarzwald posted:It's telling how the wellspring all the "this proves games are art" games draw from involves toying with player agency. Too many of the great games are just naval-gazing about the medium. This is unironically why I was pretty unimpressed by The Stanley Parable
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Jun 7, 2021 22:11
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Terrible Opinions posted:Funny thing by Ebert's definition of art, video games are not art, but let's plays are. His sticking point was that art has to be a linear experience decided in advance. Man, that's a poo poo definition of art even if you're not considering interactive media as art. I blame Harold Bloom for everything.
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Jun 7, 2021 22:13
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Terrible Opinions posted:Funny thing by Ebert's definition of art, video games are not art, but let's plays are. His sticking point was that art has to be a linear experience decided in advance. Which honestly can't say is a terrible personal definition, but there is a large amount of old curmudgeon in taking so long to acknowledge this is not a universal definition. Doesn't this invalidate everything with a live performance or audience?
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Jun 7, 2021 22:15
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There's an unfortunately large amount of people who tied up their identity in gaming as a lifestyle, so the most popular media critic in mainstream culture saying games are not worthy of being considered "art" becomes an attack on those people, not just the medium. Which is why you get a lot of Capital G Gamers still banging on about some off-hand comments a dead guy made over a decade ago.
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Jun 7, 2021 22:16
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Hel posted:Doesn't this invalidate everything with a live performance or audience?
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Jun 7, 2021 22:17
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Beyond the Valley of the Dolls>all games
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Jun 7, 2021 22:20
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The only good movie is Escape From New York anyway.
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Jun 7, 2021 22:22
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Schwarzwald posted:It's telling how the wellspring all the "this proves games are art" games draw from involves toying with player agency. Too many of the great games are just naval-gazing about the medium. I'll take navel-gazing over "cinematic". That said I agree that it can get pretty tiring to have games rub your face in the fact that you, the player, have done these terrible things you monster. Particularly when the game doesn't actually give you a choice in game to not do the terrible things, so basically the game is berating you for not turning the game off and refusing to play the $70 product you bought on some kind of nebulous moral ground.
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Jun 7, 2021 22:23
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Schwarzwald posted:just naval-gazing about the medium. we're talking about games, not superhero comics
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Jun 7, 2021 22:24
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Schwarzwald posted:It's telling how the wellspring all the "this proves games are art" games draw from involves toying with player agency. Too many of the great games are just naval-gazing about the medium. I still hold Kotor 2 to be a great experience because of how solid the writing is but that's really the only thing holding it up. From a gameplay perspective it is rather boring to actually play using combat and RPG mechanics. The meat is in the dialogue system. I never cared much for the whole "your experience points are actually you being a Force Vampire sucking the life out of the people you kill." It's the moment to moment storytelling I love, not the critique of gameplay mechanics. thetoughestbean posted:This is unironically why I was pretty unimpressed by The Stanley Parable Same for Stanley Parable. As a game it's dull but I really enjoy the snappy writing and the increasingly agitated narrator. My issue with both these games and with Bioshock and Spec Ops is the use of writing to make a point about mechanics rather than using the mechanics themselves and letting the results speak on their own without the author explaining the meaning like you're a braindead luddite.
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Jun 7, 2021 22:26
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The Stanley Parable’s major point being the player ultimately only having the illusion of agency in games because just left me going “yeah, and?” Like, yeah, games are constructed and almost all actions you can take in them, especially in their narratives, are accounted for by the creator. Pointing that out doesn’t feel deep or meaningful, and kind of misses why choices in games can feel meaningful
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Jun 7, 2021 22:35
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Yardbomb posted:Ebert sucked for being a huge anti-horror snob he's right (not the concerned mom stuff but)
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Jun 7, 2021 22:36
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Jamie Faith posted:Funny you mention that, shes actually good friends with Movie Bob! The last time I saw her she was yucking it up with Bob about how people are dumb for wanting to feed poor people instead of going to space lol Lmfao at that liberalism tweet.
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Jun 7, 2021 22:41
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Arcsquad12 posted:I still hold Kotor 2 to be a great experience because of how solid the writing is but that's really the only thing holding it up. From a gameplay perspective it is rather boring to actually play using combat and RPG mechanics. The meat is in the dialogue system. I never cared much for the whole "your experience points are actually you being a Force Vampire sucking the life out of the people you kill." It's the moment to moment storytelling I love, not the critique of gameplay mechanics. Having just replayed through it recently the game really falls apart at the seams after the Jedi Council. Even with the restored content mod a bunch of disconnected stuff all starts happening at once and almost none of it makes sense, and then once you hit Malachor V there's just nothing to even grasp on to narratively outside of the final conversations with Kreia and Sion. I really like the game and it has some good highs, but I can't really elevate it to being one of the greats when it is just so blatantly unfinished even with restored content awkwardly stapled onto it.
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Jun 7, 2021 22:45
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Schwarzwald posted:How many people are aware that Ebert wrote a glowing review of an adventure game, Well that’s well worth pointing out I’m not sure that game is as easy to see as providing the empathic punch that’s Ebert last criteria. Arcsquad12 posted:Same for Stanley Parable. As a game it's dull but I really enjoy the snappy writing and the increasingly agitated narrator. My issue with both these games and with Bioshock and Spec Ops is the use of writing to make a point about mechanics rather than using the mechanics themselves and letting the results speak on their own without the author explaining the meaning like you're a braindead luddite. There’s a reason a critic excessively in love with the others bits of the game coined the term “ludonarrative dissonance” in response to it even as there’s unlike other examples not quite an issue. Rockit fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jun 7, 2021 |
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Jun 7, 2021 22:47
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Sydin posted:I'll take navel-gazing over "cinematic".  to both pointsin my experience, most games trying to be "cinematic" aren't very good at actually being cinema, at least as far as cutscenes go - that is, they often feel like they're just ripping off elements of films without actually putting much thought as to why those elements are the way they are. the vast majority of "cinematic" games would be mediocre films at best, imo that's what prevented me from enjoying The Last of Us - the gameplay was good but everything else felt like it was trying too hard to be Prestige HBO TV Series or something, and it wasn't all that great at that to be competely honest. Plus, it all clashed horribly with the whole "brutally kill a bunch of dudes with a 2x4" thing that's a big part of the gameplay loop. the second point about taking away your agency and then berating you for the horrible things that the game makes you do ties into that. just let me *not* kill some of these dudes if i don't want to, game, pls, is it that hard
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Jun 7, 2021 22:48
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this conversation is refolding my latent insanity so it becomes stronger and sharper.Bleck posted:every medium is art mediums are the means by which art is delivered to an audience. hence "medium". saying your oil paints are art is going to get some funny looks. Ivypls posted:video games are art, sure, but it's a medium with vanishingly few pieces of *good* art this is the correct answer. which is the real question i guess. are video games an art or a medium for that art? or, more annoying, is it an APPLIED art, a product with a purpose (interactive entertainment) which is made aesthetically pleasant by apply arts (writing, visual arts) to the product? e: this is actually why the "are games art" argument drives me, personally, nuts is no one knows what any of these words mean so they keep talking past each other making the same tired points. please put arts funding back in schools asap VVVV this point also muddies things, competitive aspects are not really a part of a typical artistic experience. fun hater fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jun 7, 2021 |
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Jun 7, 2021 23:02
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Honestly I feel like one of the best things a video game can offer is by creating a world that sucks you in like Metroid Prime or Dark Souls. Of course this doesn't work for every genre, but some games are less like art and more like sports.
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Jun 7, 2021 23:06
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thetoughestbean posted:The Stanley Parable’s major point being the player ultimately only having the illusion of agency in games because just left me going “yeah, and?” Like, yeah, games are constructed and almost all actions you can take in them, especially in their narratives, are accounted for by the creator. Pointing that out doesn’t feel deep or meaningful, and kind of misses why choices in games can feel meaningful I think that's an incomplete read on The Stanley Parable. It is a game about a storyteller trying to tell a story despite a player using their powers to "evade" all that story content. That is obscured by the fact that the player doesn't control the storyteller, but as someone who has done a lot of DM-ing the game speaks to me. I've been that storyteller. Also, The Stanley Parable gave use the Raphael Trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ-IcS7mRSk, which is extremely Art. I love how the voice actor reads the "very emotional" bit 
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Jun 7, 2021 23:11
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spec ops the line is talked up a lot for the meta commentary but more than anything I thought it was just a great anti-war story. What I took away from it was a lot less “don’t play this video game” and a lot more “don’t loving enlist” and I was exposed to it at an age where it was able to really influence my views on the military
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Jun 7, 2021 23:14
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josh04 posted:we're talking about games, not superhero comics There's definitely similar dynamics at play, but astonishingly enough I'm willing to give the point to superhero comics. They're at least not about reading the comic. (Grant Morrison's Ultra Comics aside).
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Jun 7, 2021 23:18
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Srice posted:Actually that's untrue! Oh that's worse news. He was a 90s pc gamer.
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Jun 7, 2021 23:19
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roger ebert loved anachronox
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Jun 7, 2021 23:20
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fun hater posted:competitive aspects are not really a part of a typical artistic experience. What about art contests?  fun hater posted:please put arts funding back in schools asap DeafNote posted:Honestly I feel like one of the best things a video game can offer is by creating a world that sucks you in like Metroid Prime or Dark Souls. Honestly, this is one thing that I think both the "video games are not art/bad art" and the "video games like Last of Us 2 and Bioshock infinite are TROO ART" folks miss. Just because a game doesn't have a deep story or even 3-dimensional characters doesn't mean it's not art/bad art. Games can provoke thoughts, feelings, expressions, moods, etc, and explore ideas thru their digital environments and visuals. Because of their interactivity, you can do a lot of things other mediums just can't (this isn't me going "VIDEO GAMES ARE THE BESTEST ARTS" for the record lol alltho they are my favorite) I think comparing games to movies and tv is reductive because of their abstractness, video games are alot closer to paintings and sculptures IMO than movies/tv.
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Jun 7, 2021 23:25
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Yardbomb posted:Ebert sucked for being a huge anti-horror snob/concerned mom back in the day.
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Jun 7, 2021 23:28
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Augus posted:spec ops the line is talked up a lot for the meta commentary but more than anything I thought it was just a great anti-war story. What I took away from it was a lot less “don’t play this video game” and a lot more “don’t loving enlist” and I was exposed to it at an age where it was able to really influence my views on the military
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Jun 7, 2021 23:30
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Augus posted:spec ops the line is talked up a lot for the meta commentary but more than anything I thought it was just a great anti-war story. What I took away from it was a lot less “don’t play this video game” and a lot more “don’t loving enlist” and I was exposed to it at an age where it was able to really influence my views on the military This, but in a broader sense I saw it as a criticism of how much game companies cozy up to the military by trying to completely remove the glamour from it. Basically a big old "this industry is seriously hosed" kinda take.
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Jun 7, 2021 23:38
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not liking a movie or a genre is not a moral failing also.Jamie Faith posted:What about art contests? n-no! i wont be intellectually bested!!
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Jun 7, 2021 23:39
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Alaois posted:roger ebert loved anachronox Release the Tom Hall cut.
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Jun 7, 2021 23:50
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Dawgstar posted:Release the Tom Hall cut. i love anachronox because while john romero was spending 7 years trying and failing to revolutionize first person shooters with Daikatana and warren spector was directing possibly the culmination of the Immersive Sim as a genre with Deus Ex, tom hall was just like "dude i played Final Fantasy 7 and it was sick as hell? why doesn't anyone in america make games like this" so he directed Anachronox
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Jun 8, 2021 00:01
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Srice posted:He was real good at both writing and talking about movies. Obviously having a tv show helped a lot, but his stuff was pretty dang good on its own merits. It's always a pleasure to watch an older movie and look up what he wrote about it at the time. https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/north-1994 one of my favorite quotes of all time came from that review, just absolutely brutal: quote:I hated this movie. Hated hated hated hated hated this movie. Hated it. Hated every simpering stupid vacant audience-insulting moment of it. Hated the sensibility that thought anyone would like it. Hated the implied insult to the audience by its belief that anyone would be entertained by it.
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Jun 8, 2021 00:05
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fun hater posted:
im kidding
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Jun 8, 2021 00:11
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Vinny, Alex, and Brad recently left Giant Bomb, and it was a bummer. but they have now created a patreon for their new self-owned company, Nextlander, which will be podcasting and streaming. great! I'm definitely in for that.
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Jun 8, 2021 00:26
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don't think anybody posted about this, today's Jim Sterling video is about something special https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmov46MEFFI Augus fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 01:43
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DeafNote posted:New topic! Okay, just finished watching this. This is like nightmares that I've had, Christ.
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Jun 8, 2021 01:55
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| # ? May 30, 2024 11:42 |
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As someone once said, I may not know art, but I know what I like. As such, I know I like video games. People just want the things they like to be validated by others, so when it's invalidated (especially by someone prominent) it's frustrating. I find, though, that's it's better not to concern yourself with what other people think, and enjoy the things you like, rather than trying to prove their worth to someone else.
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Jun 8, 2021 02:01
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