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pog boyfriend posted:4th edition is extremely good so..? Not if you played a wizard since 1st edition. In that case it was like being pooped on by the game developers.
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Jun 8, 2021 13:10
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Sure you can balance classes. They did balance classes once, you've just been so poisoned by bad rpg design you've been tricked into thinking there's nothing else. I do appreciate you just openly saying that the reason you don't like 4e is because you don't like not being the only viable character by merit of being a spellcaster.
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Jun 8, 2021 13:20
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neonchameleon posted:It took me a few seconds to work out which side you meant was crap given that life clerics and champion fighters are two of the most popular subclasses in the game. (As for that matter are hexblades - and evokers are the most popular wizard school). Of course there's a lot of volatility. Life clerics and champion fighters are SRD content, and so the only cleric/fighter subclasses available on Beyond for free.
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Jun 8, 2021 13:24
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Rutibex posted:Not if you played a wizard since 1st edition. In that case it was like being pooped on by the game developers. I played Wizards since 1E and loved 4E. Some of the 3.5 prestige classes were like "Okay, give up 5 levels of fighter BAB to gain +2 damage with shortbows and also you get one Cantrip and you can talk to squirrels once a week but only if you invest in all 10 levels. Prerequisites: 5 different trap feats and 15 ranks in Speak Language" levels of nonsense just because they had to fill the splats with something.
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Jun 8, 2021 13:25
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Glagha posted:Sure you can balance classes. They did balance classes once, you've just been so poisoned by bad rpg design you've been tricked into thinking there's nothing else. I have no problem if everyone wants to play a wizard, in which case the whole party would be equally "viable" whatever that means. I just like playing a wizard, and that class doesn't really exist in 4e. It's like they took the Warblade from 3.5 edition and reskinned it to be every class.
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Jun 8, 2021 13:26
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Rutibex posted:I have no problem if everyone wants to play a wizard, in which case the whole party would be equally "viable" whatever that means. I just like playing a wizard, and that class doesn't really exist in 4e. It's like they took the Warblade from 3.5 edition and reskinned it to be every class. I can see what you're saying in that the classic Wizard, with their imaginative spell use and narrative changing out of combat spells, doesn't exist in 4th. I like 4th, but yeah they took that out when they balanced the classes specifically and the whole game generally.
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Jun 8, 2021 13:41
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No they didn't, ritual spells exist and it's all the usual suspects of shaping stone, teleport, alarm, whatever. They just didn't lock it down to only one class is allowed to have access to those things and even then wizards were king poo poo of rituals
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Jun 8, 2021 13:43
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Glagha posted:No they didn't, ritual spells exist and it's all the usual suspects of shaping stone, teleport, alarm, whatever. They just didn't lock it down to only one class is allowed to have access to those things and even then wizards were king poo poo of rituals I enjoy choosing between combat and utility spells, trying to anticipate what the DM will throw at us week to week. They kind of got rid of that in 5e too, so I guess I can't complain too much about that 
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Jun 8, 2021 13:46
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Rutibex posted:Not if you played a wizard since 1st edition. In that case it was like being pooped on by the game developers. This is what’s wrong with tabletop players
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Jun 8, 2021 14:21
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please knock Mom! posted:This is what’s wrong with tabletop players 60 year old grogs: My main got nerfed!! 
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Jun 8, 2021 15:04
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It should be a blanket rule to not play with DMs who outlaw certain official races or classes, right? When I was interviewing for Frostmaiden games on Roll20, initially I got into one where totem barbarians weren't allowed (because bear totem is too "OP", nevermind the fact that there are tons of ways to get the party wiped in this campaign), and the DM shot down my crown paladin character because that "subclass wouldn't make sense up here, it's pretty lawless" (even though I had provided a backstory and reason for the character to be there). Ended up dropping out before we started because I could tell it was going to suck.
change my name fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 15:13
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change my name posted:It should be a blanket rule to not play with DMs who outlaw certain races or classes, right? When I was interviewing for Frostmaiden games on Roll20, initially I got into one where totem barbarians weren't allowed (because bear totem is too "OP", nevermind the fact that there are tons of ways to get the party wiped in this campaign), and the DM shot down my crown paladin character because that "subclass wouldn't make sense up here, it's pretty lawless" (even though I had provided a backstory and reason for the character to be there). Ended up dropping out before we started because I could tell it was going to suck. not really, depending? if someone says dont play the ua mystic they are just a sensible human being for example. they might also be playing in a different setting - the existence of warforged for example has profound implications on magic and technology levels that might not gel with a game. complaining about reddit builds is some nonsense but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with disallowing stuff if you are upfront with it. i disagree with those examples but you never know, it might be good. its better than allowing it but being salty and pissing on the class all the time
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Jun 8, 2021 15:16
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pog boyfriend posted:not really, depending? if someone says dont play the ua mystic they are just a sensible human being for example. they might also be playing in a different setting - the existence of warforged for example has profound implications on magic and technology levels that might not gel with a game. Sorry, I kind of meant base stuff, not "you can't play this because it clashes with the world's canon", more "I'm a great DM but you can't play this subclass because I don't know how to adjust encounter difficulty" change my name fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 15:18
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change my name posted:It should be a blanket rule to not play with DMs who outlaw certain races or classes, right? When I was interviewing for Frostmaiden games on Roll20, initially I got into one where totem barbarians weren't allowed (because bear totem is too "OP", nevermind the fact that there are tons of ways to get the party wiped in this campaign), and the DM shot down my crown paladin character because that "subclass wouldn't make sense up here, it's pretty lawless" (even though I had provided a backstory and reason for the character to be there). Ended up dropping out before we started because I could tell it was going to suck.
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Jun 8, 2021 15:22
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Yeah a DM that says "I'm not sure how this would work on my campaign" (and then invites you to figure out how it would!!) Is one thing. A DM, especially in a rando game, who says your PC is OP would be a red flag for me, motherfucker we ain't queuing into Overwatch.
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Jun 8, 2021 15:23
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change my name posted:It should be a blanket rule to not play with DMs who outlaw certain races or classes, right? When I was interviewing for Frostmaiden games on Roll20, initially I got into one where totem barbarians weren't allowed (because bear totem is too "OP", nevermind the fact that there are tons of ways to get the party wiped in this campaign), and the DM shot down my crown paladin character because that "subclass wouldn't make sense up here, it's pretty lawless" (even though I had provided a backstory and reason for the character to be there). Ended up dropping out before we started because I could tell it was going to suck. Maybe? I wouldn't make it a blanket statement. As some GM's do have like a specific world and story idea they want to explore that might not fit with some players of some races or classes. But yeah the classes you chose aren't particularly problematic. And also it's an official module in the FR, it's not that restrictive lol. For instance I somewhat get GM's who are like, No level 1 Aarakocra(fly speed) or no taking the Lucky feat or something. But loving totem barbs and crown paladin's can easily be worked into that module. You more than likely made the right move by not playing in that game.
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Jun 8, 2021 15:26
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Dexo posted:Maybe? I'm hard pressed to think of a subclass that fits better in Icewind Dale than Totem Barb, to be honest.
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Jun 8, 2021 15:35
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change my name posted:It should be a blanket rule to not play with DMs who outlaw certain official races or classes, right? When I was interviewing for Frostmaiden games on Roll20, initially I got into one where totem barbarians weren't allowed (because bear totem is too "OP", nevermind the fact that there are tons of ways to get the party wiped in this campaign), and the DM shot down my crown paladin character because that "subclass wouldn't make sense up here, it's pretty lawless" (even though I had provided a backstory and reason for the character to be there). Ended up dropping out before we started because I could tell it was going to suck. This is a big pile of red flags.
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Jun 8, 2021 15:36
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Yeah, the most charitable interpretation of that is that they're trying to filter out powergamers (since totem barbs are towards the top of the power scale) but if you're playing a game with randos, some level of that should be assumed. The only thing I tell my players when they're rolling characters is no Lucky feat and to make sure that they're all doing a roughly equal level of powergaming, because I don't want to have to balance combat around two people going full Timmy while the rest feel weak and useless. Obviously, any table is gonna end up with characters of various power levels, but that has served me well in setting expectations. For that DM in particular though, that feels like a bad situation and I'm not inclined to give a charitable reading. Not wanting to allow Crown, for whatever reason, just tickles something in the base of my brain that says a bad time is ahead and not because I have any particular love of Crown.
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Jun 8, 2021 15:48
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change my name posted:It should be a blanket rule to not play with DMs who outlaw certain official races or classes, right? When I was interviewing for Frostmaiden games on Roll20, initially I got into one where totem barbarians weren't allowed (because bear totem is too "OP", nevermind the fact that there are tons of ways to get the party wiped in this campaign), and the DM shot down my crown paladin character because that "subclass wouldn't make sense up here, it's pretty lawless" (even though I had provided a backstory and reason for the character to be there). Ended up dropping out before we started because I could tell it was going to suck. No not a blanket rule, you need to take it case by case. If the DM is being irrational and banning things for reasons that don't make any sense that is a red flag. They are going to continue to do that and frustrate you when they ban spells you were looking forward to or nerf your class features when you level up. If the DM says "my world has a theme that wouldn't fit that class/race" its only a red flag if they insist you can't reskin the class/race to be more theme appropriate.
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Jun 8, 2021 15:48
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Dexo posted:
Yeah, a good rule of thumb is that if they're being more restrictive than organized play, it's a red flag. (Not that Adventurers League is some bastion of balance or whatever, but it's simple and clear and tends to map to "these are things that really do just make the DM's life more difficult')
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Jun 8, 2021 15:56
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Toshimo posted:This is a big pile of red flags.
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Jun 8, 2021 16:10
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Rutibex posted:Not if you played a wizard since 1st edition. In that case it was like being pooped on by the game developers. Weird I've been playing and DMing since 1e and I never felt like any particular edition was pooping on me. In fact I loved 4e. Maybe it's just you and not old gamers in general.
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Jun 8, 2021 16:45
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theironjef posted:Weird I've been playing and DMing since 1e and I never felt like any particular edition was pooping on me. In fact I loved 4e. Maybe it's just you and not old gamers in general. They redesigned the entire game to make Wizards less cool. I can't help but feel a bit slighted, considering I love the way wizards work. And considering the existence of Pathfinder, and 5e D&D reversing course on many of the 4e design decisions I think I'm not alone. I don't hate 4e players or whatever, I'm just glad its not the default D&D any more. Its nice I can play with new people rather than have to find the grognard table who refuse to stop playing 3.5 edition.
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Jun 8, 2021 16:57
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Rutibex posted:They redesigned the entire game to make Wizards less cool. I can't help but feel a bit slighted, considering I love the way wizards work. And considering the existence of Pathfinder, and 5e D&D reversing course on many of the 4e design decisions I think I'm not alone. Skip Williams, is that you?
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Jun 8, 2021 17:05
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Y'all, this thread ain't for arguing about 4E D&D.
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Jun 8, 2021 17:16
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New Strixhaven subclasses, but the twist is that each can be taken by 3 different classes: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/strixhaven
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Jun 8, 2021 17:24
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change my name posted:New Strixhaven subclasses, but the twist is that each can be taken by 3 different classes: this is a very exciting design space to open up as it introduces a lot of really interesting concepts, and the UA fumbles the ball on having some extremely cool magical-martial class shared by barbarian, monk, and fighter. i really love how triclass archetypes let the base class provide flavour for the archetype, and am cautiously optimistic about the future of this
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Jun 8, 2021 18:10
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neonchameleon posted:It took me a few seconds to work out which side you meant was crap given that life clerics and champion fighters are two of the most popular subclasses in the game. (As for that matter are hexblades - and evokers are the most popular wizard school). Of course there's a lot of volatility. This is not the gotcha you think it is. D&D has always lied that the optimal party includes a blaster wizard and healbot cleric, but blasting hasn't been good since 3rd ed barring extreme optimization, and the contribution of fireball wizard and healbot cleric are that the party takes more damage and burns more spell slots. It goes all the way back to the 4e developers initially claiming AoE damage was control (until it eventually became striking with the sorcerer) and the fuckawful character advice in every 3e book.
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Jun 8, 2021 18:26
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The worse your party optimization is, the better a Wizard casting Magic Missile/Fireball/Chain Lightning is. And when your "strikers" can actually do a lot of damage that can scale up even better in good circumstances, that fixed Fireball damage looks a lot worse by comparison. At that point, spellcasters are playing support, trying to game the action economy, and beating exploration challenges (or if they're on edge cases, trivializing combat by using exploration mechanics like Fly vs. a Grizzly Bear). But what Wizards aren't doing in a well optimized party is the most damage.
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Jun 8, 2021 18:34
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Where do you all find games other than on here? I live out in the sticks, the closest town of more than 10k people is about an hour and a half away, so in person is unlikely to happen. I had a game for a couple sessions earlier this year but IRL drama ended it quickly. It's a shame, I was really enjoying playing a charisma-based character for the first time ever and having only played by post before the creativity seemed much higher playing over voice chat. I was looking forward to trying to play a good-aligned Oath of Conquest paladin with the philosophy "if you can make your enemies immediately poo poo their pants and surrender there's less bloodshed."
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Jun 8, 2021 19:00
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Either check out a game store or volunteer to teach your friends.
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Jun 8, 2021 19:05
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22 Eargesplitten posted:Where do you all find games other than on here? I live out in the sticks, the closest town of more than 10k people is about an hour and a half away, so in person is unlikely to happen. I had a game for a couple sessions earlier this year but IRL drama ended it quickly. It's a shame, I was really enjoying playing a charisma-based character for the first time ever and having only played by post before the creativity seemed much higher playing over voice chat. I was looking forward to trying to play a good-aligned Oath of Conquest paladin with the philosophy "if you can make your enemies immediately poo poo their pants and surrender there's less bloodshed." I didn't play for 20+ years between high school and now and then I lucked into an invite to game run by some coworkers when I changed jobs.
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Jun 8, 2021 19:06
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22 Eargesplitten posted:Where do you all find games other than on here? I live out in the sticks, the closest town of more than 10k people is about an hour and a half away, so in person is unlikely to happen. I had a game for a couple sessions earlier this year but IRL drama ended it quickly. It's a shame, I was really enjoying playing a charisma-based character for the first time ever and having only played by post before the creativity seemed much higher playing over voice chat. I was looking forward to trying to play a good-aligned Oath of Conquest paladin with the philosophy "if you can make your enemies immediately poo poo their pants and surrender there's less bloodshed." I've joined games from Internet forums Co-workers (benefits of a nerdy job) IRL gaming and LARPing groups I've joined via a friend
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Jun 8, 2021 19:10
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:This is not the gotcha you think it is. D&D has always lied that the optimal party includes a blaster wizard and healbot cleric, but blasting hasn't been good since 3rd ed barring extreme optimization, and the contribution of fireball wizard and healbot cleric are that the party takes more damage and burns more spell slots. It goes all the way back to the 4e developers initially claiming AoE damage was control (until it eventually became striking with the sorcerer) and the fuckawful character advice in every 3e book. That's fair but generally speaking every party is better off if they have someone with access to each of the major spell lists and someone who has a decent shot at making each major stat check (strength, int, dex). You don't necessarily need a pointy hat single class wizard but it really helps to have a strong Counterspell and it's good if someone in the party can Revivify. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 19:11
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Infinite Karma posted:The worse your party optimization is, the better a Wizard casting Magic Missile/Fireball/Chain Lightning is. And when your "strikers" can actually do a lot of damage that can scale up even better in good circumstances, that fixed Fireball damage looks a lot worse by comparison. At that point, spellcasters are playing support, trying to game the action economy, and beating exploration challenges (or if they're on edge cases, trivializing combat by using exploration mechanics like Fly vs. a Grizzly Bear). But what Wizards aren't doing in a well optimized party is the most damage. I almost never take damaging AOE spells in 5e, they just don't compete with the party Barbarian. If I want to do the most damage as a Wizard my best option is casting Haste on the barbarian  Which is great, an old scholar should not be the guy dishing out the most damage.
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Jun 8, 2021 19:15
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22 Eargesplitten posted:Where do you all find games other than on here? I live out in the sticks, the closest town of more than 10k people is about an hour and a half away, so in person is unlikely to happen. I had a game for a couple sessions earlier this year but IRL drama ended it quickly. It's a shame, I was really enjoying playing a charisma-based character for the first time ever and having only played by post before the creativity seemed much higher playing over voice chat. I was looking forward to trying to play a good-aligned Oath of Conquest paladin with the philosophy "if you can make your enemies immediately poo poo their pants and surrender there's less bloodshed." Just sign up for some Roll20 games. It'll take you a few tries to get into a decent one, so don't get overly invested in any one of them, but once you do you'll have fun.
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Jun 8, 2021 19:19
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That's fair but generally speaking every party is better off if they have someone with access to each of the major spell lists and someone who has a decent shot at making each major stat check (strength, int, dex). We're talking past each other. I'm not saying don't take cleric and wizard, I'm saying divination CC wizard and forge cleric will do the team a lot better than evoker and life cleric trying to fight the game's busted math and smash numbers.
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Jun 8, 2021 19:29
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:We're talking past each other. I'm not saying don't take cleric and wizard, I'm saying divination CC wizard and forge cleric will do the team a lot better than evoker and life cleric trying to fight the game's busted math and smash numbers. Oh of course My current table is literally all charisma casters (bard, warlock, paladin) plus a fighter and a rogue. We are all very pretty but I think the median party intelligence is 10.
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Jun 8, 2021 19:34
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh of course My Frostmaiden game is a ranger, sorcerer, warlock, and my druid. If I hadn't buffed intelligence and gone for the scholar background to play at being a former wizard-turned-nature-boy, we'd be dumber than a box of rocks
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Jun 8, 2021 19:41
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