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mediaphage posted:not op, but it's less common in north america, though you can often find it at specialty shops. you can also just breed a little instant yeast in a bowl of warm water and sugar or something. I've used instant dried yeast for all the pizza I've made so far, but I'm interested in alternatives!
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Jun 8, 2021 18:35
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mediaphage posted:not op, but it's less common in north america, though you can often find it at specialty shops. you can also just breed a little instant yeast in a bowl of warm water and sugar or something. Look for it in a cooler section. It’s often by the butter in my experience. But most places won’t stock it because people don’t usually grab it. If you want your own never ending supply you can grow it no problem. You can start with whichever yeast you want and can feed it sugar water essentially. But then you also need to temp control, pH buffer, add nutrients, and then wash it to get your slurry while hoping it doesn’t get infected with lacto and turn into a sourdough starter. All things you can do in your home kitchen, and super low requirements for equipment. Value added compared to just buying Instant yeast is going to be imperceptible though. We’ve selected our bread yeasts for their ability to be dried, so unless you’re starting with a beer yeast that wasn’t selected for drying then not only is a lot of work, but it won’t taste any different. But Instant > Active Dry for stability and consistency in cell count.
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Jun 8, 2021 18:43
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So, for this recipe that was posted: 00 Flour 475 g Water 310 g Salt 14 g Fresh Yeast 5 g What amounts of instant or active dry would I use, do you think?
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Jun 8, 2021 19:28
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ShaneB posted:I've used instant dried yeast for all the pizza I've made so far, but I'm interested in alternatives! Jhet posted:Look for it in a cooler section. It’s often by the butter in my experience. But most places won’t stock it because people don’t usually grab it. yeah i think it's fun to do if anyone's interested; i've played around with it. but there's not a lot of difference over just using instant dry ime. i suppose, perhaps, you might get a quicker response but that's not that important imo and if it is, you can just bloom it. sometimes i play around with the beer yeasts i keep just for shits and giggles (mostly because it's fun to eat bread while drink beer both of which have been fermented with the same yeast). i haven't had a lot of noticeable differences yet, but i have heard there are a few used for english ales that give you an almost oatmeal flavour in standard bread, which would be neat
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Jun 8, 2021 19:35
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ShaneB posted:So, for this recipe that was posted: depends on your length of ferment. if you're doing it overnight you usually don't need to use more than a gram or two. if you're doing a quicker same day ferment, 1% isn't a bad target
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Jun 8, 2021 19:36
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mediaphage posted:depends on your length of ferment. if you're doing it overnight you usually don't need to use more than a gram or two. if you're doing a quicker same day ferment, 1% isn't a bad target I've always found my New York style to taste WAY better after 48 hours cold ferment, so that's what I shoot for.
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Jun 8, 2021 19:39
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ShaneB posted:I've always found my New York style to taste WAY better after 48 hours cold ferment, so that's what I shoot for. yeah that's often the case. flavour develops and you'll usually get better structure, too. generally speaking, the longer you ferment for (even cold, although it varies), the less yeast you'll need or even want to use.
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Jun 8, 2021 20:50
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mediaphage posted:yeah i think it's fun to do if anyone's interested; i've played around with it. but there's not a lot of difference over just using instant dry ime. i suppose, perhaps, you might get a quicker response but that's not that important imo and if it is, you can just bloom it. Yep! Use any of the malty ones and you get some interesting results when you give them enough time to ferment. Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale and 1968 London ESB would be the first ones I'd try. Anything that's going to throw lots of esters when fermenting I'd skip. Although I've been tempted to just throw my saison yeasts into a bread recipe to see what comes out, but as time would have it, I don't tend to get to do both on the same day. Modern bread yeast is evolved from beer yeasts anyway, so there's a lot of overlap.
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Jun 8, 2021 22:57
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Huh, I had no idea fresh yeast isn't used everywhere .  Sometimes I have instant/active dry yeast and yeah, just use like a gram of it like mediaphage said and you should be fine 
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Jun 9, 2021 06:56
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Any of y'all ever use like "Pizza Yeast"? It appears to be designed to do same-day pizza stuff, which might be good for something quick, but I wasn't sure what people's experiences were in their testing of it.
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Jun 9, 2021 17:03
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ShaneB posted:Any of y'all ever use like "Pizza Yeast"? It appears to be designed to do same-day pizza stuff, which might be good for something quick, but I wasn't sure what people's experiences were in their testing of it. The yeast is the same, but it has enzymes in it to relax the dough.
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Jun 9, 2021 17:09
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Jhet posted:The yeast is the same, but it has enzymes in it to relax the dough. Is this "good" in any way? Like does it make something decent for same-day bake, or is it just overall kinda not good?
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Jun 9, 2021 20:55
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ShaneB posted:Is this "good" in any way? Like does it make something decent for same-day bake, or is it just overall kinda not good? The enzymes will break apart the long starches and simulate a longer ferment. Is it good? It's probably not terrible, but it's one of those things you'd do in a pinch when you decide you need 6 sheet tray pizzas to feed a bunch of kids and not something you'd want to do when you're chasing really good home pizza. It doesn't list the enzymes on the label, but I'd expect they're the same enzymes as you find in wheat flour, but it would be a lot higher concentration than you'd get from just flour so they work faster. I'd guess it's why they recommend baking within an hour or so. Any longer and it's just going to start to turn into something too soft to hold any shape.
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Jun 9, 2021 22:03
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Apologies for more Just Postin', but after doing some searching on "why does my stand mixer just make the dough ball around the hook and not actually knead," I came across this: https://www.superdoughhook.com/english/ Basically most people say something like "you need a reverse spiral attachment." I don't care for my stand mixer that much, is there something I can consider buying that comes with/can get a reverse spiral arm that will actually knead my bread and pizza dough vs just ball it up around a lovely J hook?
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Jun 9, 2021 22:30
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ShaneB posted:Apologies for more Just Postin', but after doing some searching on "why does my stand mixer just make the dough ball around the hook and not actually knead," I came across this: Do not use a spiral hook on a stand mixer that isn't designed for it. Eventually it will break the mixer. Your mixer's gear layout is designed to handle either lateral force, where a dough hook is pressing the dough against the side of the bowl, or vertical force, where a spiral hook is pressing the dough down an into the bottom of the bowl. Each requires a specific gear layout and is not designed to handle the forces put on it by the wrong style of hook. The hook your mixer comes with is the correct hook to use. Fart Car '97 fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jun 9, 2021 |
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Jun 9, 2021 22:43
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Fart Car '97 posted:Do not use a spiral hook on a stand mixer that isn't designed for it. Eventually it will break the mixer. This is good information. However, my mixer with the hook is literally useless to use, so I'd like to replace it with something else, I guess something that is designed to produce vertical force? I'd honestly prefer slowly breaking my existing mixer than continue to try to use a J hook.
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Jun 9, 2021 22:57
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J-hooks can have a relatively limited volume window where they're effective. They are bad at small batches especially, and not great for batches over a certain size. Have you experimented making things in larger or smaller batches to find the range where it can work effectively? Also, Stand mixers hold their value OK. Why not just sell it and replace it with a used one designed for a dough-screw?
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Jun 9, 2021 22:59
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Fart Car '97 posted:Also, Stand mixers hold their value OK. Why not just sell it and replace it with a used one designed for a dough-screw? That's totally fine with me, for sure! Do you have a suggestion for options on the dough screw?
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Jun 9, 2021 23:28
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you can also if the dough is not too stiff, just use the standard batter attachment to work dough. a number of food people endorse this method. i find that the dough hooks in these small mixers are good for very specific amounts of dough. above and beyond that and the experience is iffy. also don’t bother with pizza yeast. if you want something to help relax your dough, just buy some ascorbic acid / sodium ascorbate. half a teaspoon in a batch of dough is all you need and it makes a big difference. i often add it to pizza dough if i’m doing a quick or unexpected ferment
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Jun 9, 2021 23:51
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I took some inspiration from here and also tried a quicker 24h fermentation dough for a change. I tried to incorporate the tips I got from you guys and also used the Pizzapp to calculate the yeast amount based on the fermentation time. The results were good, I got a nice rise. Made a basic Margherita.  An immediate visible difference to my usual results is the lack of leopard spots even though the Pizza was in the oven the exact same amount of time (90 seconds). This matches what ogopogo mentioned about leopard spots forming with longer ferments. The crust (cornicione) looks good, too.  There is s huge difference in taste compared to my usual 48h ferments. The dough lacks complexity due to the short fermentation time and missing leopard spots. It's Pizza so it's still good but it needs strong toppings in my opinion. Margherita doesn't cut it in this case. I do have more dough in the fridge mixed for a longer fermentation, I will test if I still get good results without re-balling and long fermentation time in the coming days. In other news, I also use fresh yeast exclusively and also my Lievito Madre died unfortunately...
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Jun 10, 2021 00:00
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mediaphage posted:also don’t bother with pizza yeast. if you want something to help relax your dough, just buy some ascorbic acid / sodium ascorbate. half a teaspoon in a batch of dough is all you need and it makes a big difference. i often add it to pizza dough if i’m doing a quick or unexpected ferment Great to know. I only really asked about it because I randomly grabbed it a few months ago in a pinch and had never used it.
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Jun 10, 2021 01:00
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 Sheet tray style. Left it ferment on the counter all day.
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Jun 10, 2021 01:09
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Malefitz posted:I took some inspiration from here and also tried a quicker 24h fermentation dough for a change. I tried to incorporate the tips I got from you guys and also used the Pizzapp to calculate the yeast amount based on the fermentation time. this is probably because with longer ferments (as you probably know!), you get further sugar and starch breakdowns in your product and those will brown more it looks delicious ShaneB posted:Great to know. I only really asked about it because I randomly grabbed it a few months ago in a pinch and had never used it. i mean for sure go ahead and use it, it just isn't really worth buying on its own since you can just add what you need for those rare times you need it! Jhet posted:
baller
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Jun 10, 2021 02:00
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Jhet posted:
That is ideal
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Jun 10, 2021 06:00
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On stand mixer use- I said previously I'd give a try with the standard mixer attachment instead of the j hook in my kitchenaid. It didn't work great- the dough eventually covers the attachment and wanders around the bowl barely touching the sides. Increasing the speed, which with the J hook 'flings' the dough out onto the bowl and encourages gluten formation, doesn't really work with the mixer because there's more area for it to cling to. After about 10 mins it was underdeveloped and never really got any better. This was with 65% hydration. It was much faster to incorporate flour in the earlier stages which is a plus, but it doesn't really outweigh the ineffective kneading. It might work for really wet doughs like foccacia but it's back to the J hook and high speeds for me until i can justify a spiral mixer with a breaker bar.
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Jun 10, 2021 14:18
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StarkingBarfish posted:On stand mixer use- I said previously I'd give a try with the standard mixer attachment instead of the j hook in my kitchenaid. It didn't work great- the dough eventually covers the attachment and wanders around the bowl barely touching the sides. Increasing the speed, which with the J hook 'flings' the dough out onto the bowl and encourages gluten formation, doesn't really work with the mixer because there's more area for it to cling to. After about 10 mins it was underdeveloped and never really got any better. This was with 65% hydration. It was much faster to incorporate flour in the earlier stages which is a plus, but it doesn't really outweigh the ineffective kneading. It might work for really wet doughs like foccacia but it's back to the J hook and high speeds for me until i can justify a spiral mixer with a breaker bar. i'm not saying you're incorrect but i find this so strange because i literally just used a beater attachment this morning to make a perfect 65% hydration dough
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Jun 10, 2021 16:00
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I'd like to counterpoint on the J-hook that they can work in some stuff and that the idea isn't just fatally flawed. I have a ~100-year-old 20-quart Hobart that kneads individual bread batches just fine while also doing a much larger size without an issue. It's using a J-hook. Personally, the most I recall doing at once is something like a regular 2.2kg sack of flour's worth of pizza. The bowl is pretty dinged up and I wonder if the irregularities actually help catch the dough and get it agitated.
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Jun 10, 2021 19:49
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J-hooks work. They wouldn't be the standard hook if they didn't.
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Jun 10, 2021 20:29
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They work if you have precisely the right amount of dough to bowl ratio. Mine is useless most of the time.
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Jun 10, 2021 20:40
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Like I said earlier I have a standard kitchenaid and I just use the paddle attachment and it works fine, I'm mostly doing like 300-600g flour size batches, 60-67% hydration The hook did not seem to work well for me
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Jun 10, 2021 21:54
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Stefan Prodan posted:Like I said earlier I have a standard kitchenaid and I just use the paddle attachment and it works fine, I'm mostly doing like 300-600g flour size batches, 60-67% hydration Yeah it was your suggestion I was trying- any tips? What speed are you running it on and for how long? Are you tamping the dough down off the beater occasionally? e: I'm doing 65% hydration with about 650g of flour
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Jun 11, 2021 00:08
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StarkingBarfish posted:Yeah it was your suggestion I was trying- any tips? What speed are you running it on and for how long? Are you tamping the dough down off the beater occasionally? No, I mean I just run it on the lowest speed for a few minutes, you really just need everything to combine, in my experience as long as everything comes together you just kinda scoop it off the paddle into the bowl, coat it with a bit of oil so it won't stick, then form it into a ball, and the rest of it will just kinda take care of itself while it rises. It does clump up on the beater though but I haven't found that to really make any difference. I took a class in making bread from a french master baker here and he said people really over emphasize kneading, like we were doing it by hand and he came over and was like "why do you knead so much, it's done, you can put it away to rise now" and I mean you can see the success people have with like no knead doughs in here, so I just wouldn't worry about it a ton as long as it's forming a ball pretty well and seems pretty mixed Just give it a shot sometime (as far as like finishing it with that dough even if you don't think it looks perfect), the worst that will happen is you waste $2 of ingredients if that, and you'll learn what you can get away with while making something that's still good I should say though, iirc you're one of the guys that uses 00 flour and like the real pizza ovens? I'm using bread flour and a home oven so if having 00 flour changes the equation here in some way then I can't vouch for that I guess, but for my application the paddle has worked fine every time.
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Jun 11, 2021 00:14
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Don’t tell anyone, but that last pizza I made was 67% hydration and I did it by hand. The secret for me is make a shaggy mass, cover, then come back in 20ish after I’m happy with my autolyse step. The I need for a couple minutes until it looks and feels right. The biggest difference in bubble size is how long it gets to ferment and at what temp. It’s fine to play around and complicate things as much as you want, but that French baker was right. I fussed about making perfect baguette for a couple years and when I stopped fussing as much and just started to go by feel it started turning out great almost every time. So really, the real secret is practicing a lot.
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Jun 11, 2021 00:58
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You don't need to knead much if you're doing a long ferment, but isn't it better to knead for countertop/non-cold fermets?
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Jun 11, 2021 02:56
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My own science project is using the most generic, lovely AP flour. However, I am augmenting with gluten and cold fermenting. I used to do something like this a decade ago with my old pizza oven when I made a poolish. I was playing chicken with the flour I used and figured out that I could use the shittiest flour possible with the poolish so long as it it had enough time to hydrate well.
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Jun 11, 2021 08:36
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I also combine on lowest setting in the mixer with a normal (j-like) hook and the first thing I do is letting it rest for 10-20 minutes to autolyse. The improvement in gluten is incredible after this first autolyse time already. I then mix for maybe 5 minutes on the second lowest setting. If the dough wanders up too much (depends on hydration and dough mass) I turn it off once or twice and recombine it with a rounded dough scraper in the bowl. After the 5 minutes I let it rest/autolyse again for 10-20 minutes. At this point the dough usually feels perfect already, I might give it another go in the mixer or hand knead it a bit or even stretch an fold if it feels necessary but it doesn't get much better at this point. I tried mixing for longer and also some of the suggestions from here, like setting on a very high setting (4) to "batter" the dough. I almost overkneaded it with this. The dough became very sweaty and sticky and started to lose it's elasticity. I saved it by letting it rest and then giving it surface tension by pulling it over the kneading mat with the dough scraper before bulk fermentation. Of course it is possible that there is something I could improve but dough strength never was an issue for me to be honest. I have perfect window panes with my technique and as I'm using comparatively little dough but still want a large Pizza I stretch it very thin and it never even once teared. I'm also using high protein 00 flour (all German flour has very little protein content) and an Italian Pizza oven for Neapolitan style Pizzas with long fermentation times.
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Jun 11, 2021 09:22
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Now look at that idiot. "Never an issue". I knew I shouldn't have jinxed it.   I tried the new peel StarkingBarfish recommended and I used way too little flour. The dough stuck to the peel. Good thing is, it's still Pizza so it tasted awesome.
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Jun 11, 2021 14:37
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Have you tried cornmeal? Works better for me and I prefer it to the flour taste wise.
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Jun 11, 2021 17:25
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I have tried semolina once but I didn't like the crispiness it created in the dough. Normally I don't mind the flour, I know how to handle the dough so not too much dry flour sticks to it to influence the taste. This time I decided to make Pizza on a work day in between meetings while my SO is flown out on business travel...so it was hectic and I didn't take enough care to do everything right. With my usual wooden peel I take a small amount of flour and rub it over the...blade? The dough ball is also dredged in flour before stretched. I usually garnish the Pizza directly on the peel and just give it a shake once in a while so nothing sticks. But this time I used the new metal peel with holes and I just...didn't put flour on it at all. So it sticked and the result you can see in the picture. No matter I have been experimenting with making the best Pizza possible for over a year now, setbacks don't mean all that much to me as long as the pie tastes good. And it did!
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Jun 11, 2021 18:26
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i also use cornmeal for the peel when i bother. anyway not surprised there's a big difference in gluten structure after letting it sit; a big point of kneading is to help hydrate the gluten. you can take a shortcut by vac packing your dough
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Jun 11, 2021 18:36
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