|
lol the alien is absolutely built on rape imagery. it has a penis mouth that bites people
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 18:36 |
|
|
It's a completely valid reading of Zeus, not one I agree with cause he murders the hell out of her immediately after in a way where she is not going to be preserved or suitable as a queen. He's menacing and cultural context makes it natural to see that he might be menacing in a sexual way aside from just violence. In this case I think his actions show he is not, but there's tension in what he might do.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:32
|
|
|
teagone posted:*fart* Mandrel posted:help the bad man’s movie made my tummy hurt ...is there a particular reason you feel it's appropriate to respond to negative reviews of Snyder's work this way? Because, speaking as someone who actually enjoys Snyder in general, this kind of knee-jerk antagonism is getting tedious. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:This shot below is all over the Internet and was a famous marketing image for Alien 3. It's the exact same visual framing as Zeus and Lilly. To my knowledge, no one has ever thought it was "rapey" and nobody has ever discussed it in that context for almost 30 years. I'll chime in and say: It is me, I am the guy who finds the titular alien from Alien "rapey", in this shot especially. It's been a long time since I watched Alien 3, but doesn't this actually take place immediately after the xeno kills Charles Dance, who is having a somewhat intimate and implicitly romantic moment with Ripley? On a prison planet where Ripley is the only female? There's absolutely subtext. This kind of framing actually seems pretty rote in terms of sexualized menace, and the interpretation of Zeus as more vampire than zombie is particularly relevant here. I didn't read Zeus' moment with the Coyote quite as "time to breed"-y as the poster above, but given when it happens, and given how I read Zeus' behavior elsewhere, that's the rough vibe I got too. Zeus is both a sexual being and a violent/coercive one, and he's getting all in this frightened woman's neck-space; whether or not he literally has sex with unwilling humans is unimportant compared to the aesthetic implication. The "actual" reason Zeus holds women captive might be ambiguous, but in terms of narrative and visual coding, we don't exactly have to go that far to find parallels: They are refugees who went there directly from a refugee camp. The only zombie we see interact with them (other than Zeus, I'll observe without comment) is the rapist ICE agent, who, noteworthy, likewise goes directly for the throat. I'm not working up to a thesis statement here about Zeus specifically being a rapist--but I don't understand why we'd treat him with any particular generosity in terms of his motivation, and it's absolutely coherent to read him as a sexual predator to at least some extent.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:38
|
|
|
POWELL CURES KIDS posted:...is there a particular reason you feel it's appropriate to respond to negative reviews of Snyder's work this way? Because, speaking as someone who actually enjoys Snyder in general, this kind of knee-jerk antagonism is getting tedious. Not every response is antagonistic. I'm just having a laugh, sheesh. Does every response need to be some critically thought out analytical think-piece? Sometimes I just wanna respond with a fart the same way some times I just wanna eat chicken tendies.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:46
|
|
|
I mean op literally said the movie made his stomach hurt You can't make this stuff up Re: coyote probably got torn limb from limb, as opposed to being eaten or turned. Zeus is angry, but he behaves way less 'rapey' than his mythological namesake Blood Boils fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jun 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:46
|
|
|
It's completely normal to get upset stomach from seeing gore and violence and stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:48
|
|
|
The Xenomorph is very blatantly a monster based around sexual violence. Its first film kill is via unwanted pregnancy! In a cut scene it forces the rest of the crew into child carriers! It's not exactly a coincidence that it was designed by H.R Giger, nor that a woman beats them in each of the main films. I can absolutely buy that the captive ladies & Coyote scenes were intended to be sexually charged in the script; it saw 9 years of pre/production and the prior director was very upfront about them being 'rapey'. You don't have to read them that way but it's entirely valid, I feel. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jun 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:49
|
|
|
teagone posted:Not every response is antagonistic. I'm just having a laugh, sheesh. Does every response need to be some critically thought out analytical think-piece? Sometimes I just wanna respond with a fart the same way some times I just wanna eat chicken tendies. I mean, fair enough, I also love chicken tendies. It just seems especially to be a "thing" around Snyder--hence why we've got, y'know, a fuckin Snyderdome. My bad, I'm just reading too much into it. Much like you're all reading too much into AOTD, which is, in fact, farts.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:51
|
|
|
The presumption that Snyder's Army of the Dead might've caused any "lasting damage" is a ehhh, and then dumping on the film further by saying they watched some hoity toighty tone poem documentary as some sort of cinematic palette cleanser... come on, lol. I don't care that they didn't like it. I'm just poking a bit of fun at the critique, that's all. I'm also immature and still finds farts hilarious a lot of the time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:53
|
|
|
There's an argument to be made with the captured women the ghouls keep, but Zeus isn't threatening Coyote because he's evil and horny, he's killing her in an act of revenge Edit: wait, he does impale her with a thunderbolt . . .
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:53
|
|
|
John Wick of Dogs posted:It's completely normal to get upset stomach from seeing gore and violence and stuff. That's true. I'm so desensitized to cinematic violence that I rarely ever take that into consideration.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:57
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:The Xenomorph is very blatantly a monster based around sexual violence. The shot is an Alien 3 reference, but the encounter in Alien 3 is specifically a metaphorical PTSD flashback to the murder of Ripley's colleagues in Alien 1, triggered by the sight of a needle. The alien, notably, doesn't kill Ripley (or even do anything at all) because it sees that she is already 'infected'. In this film, it's literally a one-second shot of an implied bite, between Zeus watching the queen die and Zeus getting on a horse and leading an army of followers to avenge the queen. This different context changes the meaning of the shot: while Coyote also has PTSD, this particular demonic alien just straightforwardly kills her. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jun 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:58
|
|
|
Again, I can't speak for how other people are feeling it. Maybe things have changed now and people are more sensitive to these topics or whatever, but like I said: this is a shot from a series that has a lot of rape imagery in it, but this specific shot was never discussed that way historically. It's a famous marketing shot of a monster menacing a victim, it's literally the 9th image you get when you Google image search "Alien 3", it was on television and in every newspaper in the 90s, and nobody had ever discussed it in that context. And it's exactly like the framing of Zeus and Lilly. I'm not denying that Alien does that stuff, but that's why I picked this image: it's a series that's known for that, but this image is not that. At least to me. I would really be curious if someone could provide an image of a helpless woman being menaced by a physically powerful monster that doesn't have those overtones. IIRC there might be a scene in Predator 2 that fits the bill? (it's been a long time) POWELL CURES KIDS posted:...is there a particular reason you feel it's appropriate to respond to negative reviews of Snyder's work this way? Because, speaking as someone who actually enjoys Snyder in general, this kind of knee-jerk antagonism is getting tedious. I think it's mostly the idea that this movie could make somebody's stomach hurt. Would be like if I said The Notebook gave me a nosebleed. I just watched "I Care A Lot" and I hated, hated, hated the movie and it made me distraught to the point I had to get up and pace a bit but I just can't imagine getting physically sick over it. Especially since this is a rather silly genre film. edit: ok, ok, the gore. Yeah I can get that. Well, for my part then I'm sorry. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Jun 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 17:59
|
|
|
John Wick of Dogs posted:It's completely normal to get upset stomach from seeing gore and violence and stuff. How do you make it that far into the movie if that’s the case tho? I can see if they were like “the opening violence made my stomach hurt and I had to turn it off” but not “I watched a three hour movie and my stomach started hurting at the 2 hour and 45 minute mark...” Also, no on-screen death = Zeus tossed Coyote into the time loop portal.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 18:02
|
|
|
I feel like me being all "hey whats with the hostility" has led to a far more thorough communal roasting of that one poster.SuperMechagodzilla posted:The shot is an Alien 3 reference, but the encounter in Alien 3 is specifically a metaphorical PTSD flashback to the murder of Ripley's colleagues in Alien 1, triggered by the sight of a needle. The alien, notably, doesn't kill Ripley (or even do anything at all) because it sees that she is already 'infected'. Despite Zeus' literal origin, he's coded much more strongly as "vampire" than "alien" throughout the film--and this is him going in for the traditional Dracula's Kiss after literally impaling the woman who just killed his undead Queen of the Damned. It feels like a long stretch to call Alien 3 our specific referent, particularly given, as you note, how far apart those moments are thematically, and how much sexual metaphor is staring us directly in the face. The wikipedia version is just "he kills her", sure, but the specific way it's performed and filmed carries some weight.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 18:15
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:lol the alien is absolutely built on rape imagery. it has a penis mouth that bites people It was built on that imagery but Alien 3, much like T2, flips the script so the alien is now Ripley’s protector rather than her antagonist.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 18:21
|
|
|
I've never seen Aliens 3 but that shot of the giant penis monster encroaching on the woman flinching from it definitely comes off as something
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 18:43
|
|
|
Yo folks in the rush to dump on me I guess everyone failed to realize that I said the movie didn't make my stomach hurt, but whatever. I'm sure Zack Snyder explicitly jacked a single shot in the Zeus + Coyote scene from Alien 3 and so I'm sure he wasn't going for rapey vibes or whatever, even though the alien in the Alien series is basically a walking metaphor for rape and so on. But the alien isn't a dude whose wife just got killed and who explicitly is very bummed out about having unsuccessfully attempted to reproduce with said wife. And the alien didn't literally just penetrate Ripley, whereas Zeus literally penetrated Coyote 5 seconds earlier. And the movie doesn't then have the alien leave Ripley alone, alive and unbitten, despite having killed or bitten every other human it has met, whereas that's what Zeus did. I'm sorry I said bad things about the latest Snyder movie and I'll accept another six pages of beating up on me if that's what people want but I think maybe there are better things to do with one's time. I do think it's kind of weird that Snyder elicits this sort of discourse more than other people but maybe that's not on his movies at all.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 18:46
|
|
|
Come the gently caress on, most people were saying your reading was completely reasonable
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 18:48
|
|
|
I guess the biggest thing here is that we don't know that's Zeus's wife, we don't know the actual relationship beyond this is his enforcer and he cares about her and the baby she's carrying. It's honestly a big problem with the movie, reading the Alphas' intent and understanding their social heirarchy. There's just not a lot there to go on so you'll just have to bring what you want to the table.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 18:54
|
|
|
I think they're inscrutability is largely intentional. Coyote of all characters thinks she has it basically figured out but turns out she really doesn't. We're just with a bunch of people trying to do a mission in a place that fundamentally don't understand and were unprepared for.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 19:08
|
|
|
TychoCelchuuu posted:I got pretty rapey vibes from the way Zeus interacted with Coyote after he pinned her to the wall. Doubly so because his wife just died for good and now he needs another woman. He doesn't kill her or anything. He just gets real close to her and, well... acts rapey.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 19:15
|
|
|
POWELL CURES KIDS posted:...is there a particular reason you feel it's appropriate to respond to negative reviews of Snyder's work this way? Because, speaking as someone who actually enjoys Snyder in general, this kind of knee-jerk antagonism is getting tedious. i mean, that’s what he said
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 19:26
|
|
|
Ohh when Coyote lures that guy with money and then tosses him to the zombies, that's foreshadowing that Bly is effectively doing the same thing with the rest of the characters
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 19:27
|
|
|
TychoCelchuuu posted:And the movie doesn't then have the alien leave Ripley alone, alive and unbitten, despite having killed or bitten every other human it has met, whereas that's what Zeus did. Wait isn’t that exactly what it does in that scene
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 19:39
|
|
|
POWELL CURES KIDS posted:Despite Zeus' literal origin, he's coded much more strongly as "vampire" than "alien" throughout the film Yet there is a very big difference between those three things (zombie, alien, and vampire), even with these particular blurred lines. A few handy Zizek quotes can help break this down: “I like to search for class struggle in strange domains. For example it is clear that in classical Hollywood, the couple of vampires and zombies designates class struggle. Vampires are rich, they live among us. Zombies are the poor, living dead, ugly, stupid, attacking from outside. And it's the same with cats and dogs. " "[The] Hegelian notion of habit allows us to account for the cinema-figure of zombies who drag themselves slowly around in a catatonic mood, but persisting forever: are they not figures of pure habit, of habit at its most elementary, prior to the rise of intelligence (of language, consciousness, and thinking). This is why a zombie par excellence is always someone whom we knew before, when he was still normally alive – the shock for a character in a zombie-movie is to recognize the former best neighbor in the creeping figure tracking him persistently. (Zombies, these properly un-canny figures, are therefore to be opposed to aliens who invade the body of a terrestrial: while aliens look and act like humans, but are really foreign to human race, zombies are humans who no longer look and act like humans; while, in the case of an alien, we suddenly become aware that the one closest to us – wife, son, father – is an alien, was colonized by an alien, in the case of a zombie, the shock is that this foreign creep is someone close to us...)." While the virus in this film is of alien origin, it's fairly obvious that there is no underlying intelligence 'behind' it. Instead, we have this community of ex-human outcasts who have passed through the zero-level of humanity that is the 'shambler' and are literally born again as new subjects - as literal supermen, in this case. That's the genre vocabulary employed. With the cape and helmet, Zeus could be Darth Vader. While zombies and vampires are both forms of undead, the 'alpha zombies' remain distinct from vampire in that they remain 'lower class'. There is no disguising themselves as the living to drink the blood of innocent workers or whatever. The zombies of all stripes remain just one step removed from those people interned at the ICE-styled 'quarantine' camps - which again implies an affinity and potential solidarity. This is where we should note that the specific Alien film most referenced in the movie is Alien 2 - which, unlike others in the series, is formally a zombie movie. (The introduction of the mass-produced alien 'eggs' makes the film entirely unlike Alien 1 and 3, which play out more like ghost stories.) The conflict in that particular film is presented in class terms: as a labour revolt by disgruntled miners, with the military sent in to put them down in an all-too-familiar way. And, as in this film, these 'zombies' are shown to have a certain superhuman, demonic character. This is where we can start listing differences, though, because although many of the marines in Aliens are captured, there is no real threat of conversion (except to the child, Newt, which could be its own essay). Conversion has already happened to the workers, while the marines effectively just disappear. This is altogether different to how multiple characters in Army are bit, and most are Ripley-like traumatized veterans of the zombie outbreak. So there is a fusion between Alien 2 and 3, where a lot of the major characters are already themselves half-human, traumatized, compelled to reenact the past. This is why Scott and Coyote end up becoming the monsters - in one sense succumbing to madness and, in another, shedding their mere humanity to become something new and potentially better. In Alien 3, Ripley has a full conversation with the monster, and uses it. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Jun 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 19:40
|
|
|
John Wick of Dogs posted:Come the gently caress on, most people were saying your reading was completely reasonable Yeah I feel like a few people were snarky but then most people were like "that's not fair, what's up with that"
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 20:05
|
|
|
TychoCelchuuu posted:Yo folks in the rush to dump on me I guess everyone failed to realize that I said the movie didn't make my stomach hurt, but whatever. I apologize for my joke, I didn't realize that was a load-bearing "almost" Edit: Snyder elicits this response because he is the king of rape, whereas Ridley Scott is a mere archduke DeimosRising posted:Wait isn’t that exactly what it does in that scene Yup. And as has been pointed out, xenomorphs aren't just rape monsters, but also insects and dinosaurs and dragons and colonial rebels -a good reading really needs to address the context! Blood Boils fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jun 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 20:24
|
|
|
Xenomorphs are penises, Yautjas are vaginas.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 20:38
|
|
|
Blood Boils posted:Yup. And as has been pointed out, xenomorphs aren't just rape monsters, but also insects and dinosaurs and dragons and colonial rebels -a good reading really needs to address the context! Right; the xenomorphs are psychosexual nightmare creatures, but what that actually means is very dependent on context. There are scenes with overtones of sexual violence (e.g. Parker and Lambert's death scene in Alien 1), but you're more likely to have characters like Kane who are effectively just injured on the job. In Army Of The Dead, likewise, Scott is very obviously specifically traumatized by the experience of re-killing his own wife. And Coyote's thing is more related to her survival guilt over all the people she didn't save (hence her ultimate attempt at sacrificing herself).
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 21:15
|
|
|
teagone posted:Xenomorphs are penises, Yautjas are vaginas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGxFFtdnuuk
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 23:27
|
|
|
Was hoping someone would get my half-assed reference lol   
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 23:29
|
|
|
I need to watch this movie again without being slammed drunk
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 23:38
|
|
|
Gatts posted:I need to watch this movie again without being slammed drunk It won't get better. It's an ok movie that plays to Zach Snyder's strengths.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2021 23:45
|
|
|
I watched this over 2 evenings, stopping for intermission when they get to the target casino. It worked out pretty well to not get bogged down in the length of the movie. I thought Bautista did a good job, I've seen him in supporting roles but this is the first movie I saw where he was the clear lead. bees everywhere posted:Also maybe I'm alone here but I thought the way the actors played the super zombies was just comical, they were like stray cats crawling around and hissing. Floodixor posted:I found it distracting how it looked like all of the zombies, when they ran and leapt about, looked like a bunch of preening and posing community college actors. But maybe they were??? Yeah I got a real dance studio 'explore the space'/ Cats kind of vibe which seemed kind of silly. bushisms.txt posted:I took that comment to mean watch the anime prequel for a really cool sequence, at least that's what I'm hoping for. Not a big fan of this kind of extended universe check out the tie-in series stuff. The fantasy sequence where everything goes great is similar to Sean of the Dead but I feel like Sean got the idea across a lot more quickly.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2021 23:25
|
|
|
They're ghouls dammit, not zombies Why shouldn't they dance
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2021 23:51
|
|
|
They should all have moved like Robocop
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2021 23:51
|
|
|
Floodixor posted:I found it distracting how it looked like all of the zombies, when they ran and leapt about, looked like a bunch of preening and posing community college actors. But maybe they were??? Even worse...they are "parkour experts"
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2021 00:24
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:This shot below is all over the Internet and was a famous marketing image for Alien 3. It's the exact same visual framing as Zeus and Lilly. To my knowledge, no one has ever thought it was "rapey" and nobody has ever discussed it in that context for almost 30 years. this just isn't true
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2021 01:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 18:36 |
|
|
Cafe Barbarian posted:I watched this over 2 evenings, stopping for intermission when they get to the target casino. It worked out pretty well to not get bogged down in the length of the movie. I thought Bautista did a good job, I've seen him in supporting roles but this is the first movie I saw where he was the clear lead. Can't beat a bit of Shaun Of The Dead. I rewatched it just the other day and it felt as fresh and fun as it did in 2004 when I saw it and the Dawn Of The Dead remake in cinemas on the same day. The punchline to "wait for all this to blow over" being that at the end of the movie it actually does blow over ftw
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2021 03:01
|
|