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Commander Keene posted:My memories of the PS2 version are almost 10 years old at this point, but I'm pretty sure they changed the negotiation system. Now it goes straight to the "give me stuff" part of the negotiation and then seems to be RNG if you succeed. I've been asked a question once. Personally, I think it's an improvement over having to answer 2-4 randomized questions before you even get to the negotiations but also if questions start coming up more often after the items part, it might lead to more demons running off with my poo poo. I think you're mixing up the original with something else. It was always mostly requests with sometimes 1 alignment question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6Z70y9JO-0
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Jun 8, 2021 14:08
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I think he's specifically mixing it up with Strange Journey. I know that one had questions and then requests.
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Jun 8, 2021 15:02
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Both SMT4s also had the questions first system.
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Jun 8, 2021 17:36
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Questions having the correct answer randomized is the most dickish thing SMT has ever done, in the games where that is the case. Getting sucker punched for failing an RNG quiz is just....mean.
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Jun 8, 2021 17:41
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AngryRobotsInc posted:Questions having the correct answer randomized is the most dickish thing SMT has ever done, in the games where that is the case. Getting sucker punched for failing an RNG quiz is just....mean. It’s funny if you emulate a game and use save states to learn that sometimes every answer is wrong.
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Jun 8, 2021 17:42
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It's just a thematic coat of paint over regular RNG, it's ultimately no different or worse than pokemon having a chance for failure when you throw a pokeball.
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Jun 8, 2021 17:44
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Snake Maze posted:It's just a thematic coat of paint over regular RNG, it's ultimately no different or worse than pokemon having a chance for failure when you throw a pokeball. Sure, but at that point, why even offer the illusion of having the ability to succeed?
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Jun 8, 2021 17:45
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ChaosArgate posted:Sure, but at that point, why even offer the illusion of having the ability to succeed? Yeah, that’s what makes it different from Pokémon because SMT makes it seem like you can succeed. It’s very thematic for talking to demons, but sometimes it just feels mean.
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Jun 8, 2021 17:47
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ChaosArgate posted:Sure, but at that point, why even offer the illusion of having the ability to succeed? Because the theming of demon negotiation is more immersive than a popup saying code:
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Jun 8, 2021 17:50
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Persona 5 for all its faults took most of the RNG out of negotiation
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Jun 8, 2021 17:57
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AngryRobotsInc posted:Just beat my first run through (Yosuga ending, didn't do any of the Labyrinth of Amala stuff this go through besides having to smack down Matador), and all together the game holds up well, at least to me. Played reasonably well on the Switch, though I played handheld the entire time so I don't know if it would have had any problems docked. Some minor slow down for some abilities, and more than usual in second form of the last fight, but nothing serious. Did see some longer load times in some areas for whatever reason (Assembly of Nihilo had the worst of it). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10CKFWRtkcQ Just listen to that beautiful music. Ya done good.
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Jun 8, 2021 18:37
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The big difference is that Pokemon don't ask for 1/10 of my money and a revival bead of which I have exactly three. I've never once had to weigh my options of whether or not I can afford a Pokeball
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Jun 8, 2021 21:26
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thank god for Apps in 4 and 4A that improve negotiation
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Jun 8, 2021 21:38
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:The big difference is that Pokemon don't ask for 1/10 of my money and a revival bead of which I have exactly three. Yeah, but neither do demons in Nocturne. 90% of the time it’s life stones (basically free since they drop all the time), a tiny bit of macca, or a tiny bit of health drain. You can just say no to the rare guy who wants something better.
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Jun 8, 2021 21:48
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ahh noo not revival beads, theyre not easy to buy for very little money in mutliple stores!!! lol
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Jun 8, 2021 21:49
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I sincerely love it when I give a demon a bunch of money and then they come up with an excuse to not hang with me. It's great!
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Jun 8, 2021 21:56
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Too real. Haha lol hah
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Jun 8, 2021 21:59
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Snake Maze posted:Yeah, but neither do demons in Nocturne. 90% of the time it’s life stones (basically free since they drop all the time), a tiny bit of macca, or a tiny bit of health drain. ??? In the Nihilo base, Dis asks for 300-350 macca each time, usually around 3 asks per negotiation so 900 macca for a recruit at least. I had 10k macca when I was doing that dungeon, so that's 1/10 of my cash. You could say no if they want a revival bead (which cost 1800 so 1/5 of my total money) or a chakra drop, but then 99% of the time you're just out that 1000 macca you handed over. Until you get to like, the Mannequin village, money is pretty tight in this game and if you're not doing outright grinding I've found myself really low. At some point prepping for Hell Biker I dropped to like, 5k macca
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Jun 8, 2021 22:29
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Finishing floors in Amala is very profitable due to the encounter rate.
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Jun 8, 2021 22:35
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I have never once in my entire SMT life history given a demon an item that I had to pay money for. Hell, selling excess healing items is a good way to gain a cash supply! When they ask for poo poo like a Balm of Rising or Incense that does get expensive but I'd rather take the L and tell them to gently caress off then make a deal with the same demon later but for a Life Stone instead, which is what 90% of them will ask for in any modern SMT. Nocturne also doesn't have the unmitigated bullshit that is Macca beam. Money isn't infinite like it is in late game Persona, but you should only be running out of cash when doing fusion chains with compendium summons. Mind, I do agree that demons taking your poo poo and running does suck and games that give you the illusion of choice with three wrong answers are also prioritizing flavor over fun in a way that feels awful but eh, that's kind of the SMT trademark by now. Sometimes these games just want to laugh at you and tell you to get hosed. See the aforementioned Macca beam. Caveat that this all goes out the window if you're playing a difficulty with lower cash/drop rewards.
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Jun 8, 2021 22:45
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"We get off on your tears."
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Jun 8, 2021 23:00
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:??? dang its like there is a risk and reward to it and its not just freecan t believe something in this game would be like that lol
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Jun 8, 2021 23:02
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Junpei posted:"We get off on your tears." Is there even a single Megaten game anywhere near hard enough to justify the devs saying this?
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Jun 8, 2021 23:04
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GimmickMan posted:Sometimes these games just want to laugh at you and tell you to get hosed. See the aforementioned Macca beam. Against the boss of the Prison, which casts Wild Dance and inflicts panic, it hit one of my demons and on their turn they dropped 7k macca of my 25k And yeah Im playing hard mode where everything from shops is 3x more expensive so even though I'm now in a comfortable spot in terms of regular gameplay with 30k macca, the next time I get to a town that sells a Magatama I'm gonna be back to nil. Not even counting that I haven't bought the 15k demon in the first Kalpa which would have been 3/4 of my cash when I first got there
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Jun 8, 2021 23:09
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Stux posted:dang its like there is a risk and reward to it and its not just freecan t believe something in this game would be like that lol I liked the forums way better when you were gone literally my first point was that getting demons was actually a not-free investment like Pokeballs were and you were like "haha thats dumb, its cheap and revival beads are free" and now you're just repeating the exact same thing I said in my first post which you lol'd and disagreed at by saying that yeah getting demons isn't a totally free investment like Pokeballs are RazzleDazzleHour fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 23:09
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:I liked the forums way better when you were gone u ok?
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Jun 8, 2021 23:16
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Just abuse the remake's new feature to adjust difficulty on the fly to not deal with Hard's inflated shop prices. Who cares about integrity or street cred or poo poo just play the game in the way that you enjoy it. I've been playing on Hard and bumping the difficulty down when I wanna shop or when I want to dip into the DLC grind maps. It's been great.
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Jun 8, 2021 23:21
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Stux posted:ahh noo not revival beads, theyre not easy to buy for very little money in mutliple stores!!! lol They're very expensive on hard However the real way to do it is just kill a couple dozen pixies in yoyogi and get a ton of them
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Jun 8, 2021 23:26
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YoshiOfYellow posted:Just abuse the remake's new feature to adjust difficulty on the fly to not deal with Hard's inflated shop prices. Who cares about integrity or street cred or poo poo just play the game in the way that you enjoy it. I've been playing on Hard and bumping the difficulty down when I wanna shop or when I want to dip into the DLC grind maps. It's been great. I drop the shop prices for getting the Magatama because it's not fun to not have them and all it's doing is stopping me from grinding out the cash to get them, which would actually make the game easier because then I'd be overleveled. Like, I'm fine with the balance of the game's economy, my main point was that having some negotiations as unwinnable being fine because "it's like Pokemon" is a bad comparison because the amount of investment between the two are wildly skewed, where in Pokemon games you're buying Pokeballs by the dozen and in Nocturne there's an actual cost to failing a negotiation.
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Jun 8, 2021 23:28
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so the issue is hard is hard. understood.
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Jun 8, 2021 23:32
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I mean I still disagree that there's a significant cost to failing negotiation. Even in the example you gave (losing ~900 macca in a zone where random encounters give ~300) you're still going to be walking out of the dungeon richer than you walked in, and that's the worst case scenario. A lot of the time they'll ask for life stones or health instead, so the average cost of recruiting is going to be lower than that. If anecdotes count for anything, then during every single previous play through I've just said yes to all the macca requests during negotiation, and I never had to worry about if negotiations were too expensive or anything. My current playthrough in the remaster is only just past Matador, but I'm playing on hard without dropping the difficulty for shops, and I still haven't had to worry about money for negotiations. The cost isn't literally nothing but you don't actually need to worry about if you have enough money to recruit outside of, like, the walk from the store to the terminal immediately after buying a new magatama.
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Jun 8, 2021 23:49
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Snake Maze posted:The cost isn't literally nothing but you don't actually need to worry about if you have enough money to recruit outside of, like, the walk from the store to the terminal immediately after buying a new magatama. I mean I've never been to the point where I couldn't afford a negotiation or have ever even said no because they were asking for too much, but it's enough to make you feel bad if one fails. If I weren't dropping the difficulty I'd probably have even more money because Magatama would be so expensive I wouldn't even bother and I'd have a much bigger stockpile. Finishing up Matador I think I left that dungeon with like 3k macca and definitely did a few resets because I got a bad encounter that killed 2/3 party members and didn't want to spend the 800+ macca reviving them. I'm going through the subway dungeon now and I'm not buying the 15k Piscaca that was clearly made for this because I know that the next junk shop is going to completely run me dry
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Jun 9, 2021 00:07
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Arist posted:Is there even a single Megaten game anywhere near hard enough to justify the devs saying this? I've said this a lot of times, but Megaten games are harsh on mistakes and not understanding your opponent, which does make them difficult. The games are generally fair despite this (beyond demon negotiation as has been said, since it's kind of a crapshoot if any given game does it well), so you can fool yourself into thinking they're not hard if you match their wavelength. They're typically not pulling a lot of bullshit that fails you despite you doing everything right (although there are instances of it), and it's not a game that requires actual dexterity and performative skill, but they are hard even if you've played enough of them to click with their approach. I... probably wouldn't have gone for that tagline for Demon's Souls, but less because it's inaccurate and more because it has big 'John Romero's About To Make You His Bitch' energy. It also didn't fit Demon's Souls tonally, but nobody really knew or was terribly attached to Demon's Souls' tone yet, so it's not as bad a crime as it would be if you did it now. EDIT: Also, something else to bring up... remember that at this point, Personas 3 and 4 largely defined Atlus' footprint for a lot of the public, they were still new at the time. You can argue that those games aren't hard either (and again, you would be wrong), but remember that they were starting to attract an audience more interested in the High School Funtimes side of things... and then getting their teeth kicked in by the likes of Sleeping Table and Shadow Naoto. So yeah, at the time they were absolutely earning that tagline. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Jun 9, 2021 |
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Jun 9, 2021 01:07
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Arist posted:Is there even a single Megaten game anywhere near hard enough to justify the devs saying this? Any of the SNES games
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Jun 9, 2021 01:10
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Snake Maze posted:I think you're mixing up the original with something else. It was always mostly requests with sometimes 1 alignment question.
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Jun 9, 2021 01:17
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Arist posted:Is there even a single Megaten game anywhere near hard enough to justify the devs saying this? I dunno... the first bit of exploring SMTIV had me wanting to toss my 3DS against the wall. Nocturne has had some “lol gently caress you” moments for me but I was seeing red at how easily I seemed to die in IVs early hours.
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Jun 9, 2021 01:29
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IV at least has the excuse of implementing a proper Continue system so that dying isn't as big of a deal, and Apoc took it further by not even having any consequences for continuing.
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Jun 9, 2021 01:32
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Can't you pay Charon with 3ds coins? So that's like no penalty
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Jun 9, 2021 01:36
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I don't remember having that much trouble with SMT4 early on except for the obvious Medusa/Minotaur stuff. I think Nocturne is the most bullshit tear-harvester by far because it's the game with the highest frequency of back attacks/ambushes/hama/mudo instakills that the other games mostly have removed by way of having enemies on the map. Those suck because in a way that hard bosses don't because Matador is hard, sure, but because you need to do prep work. I have Mind's Eye in Nocturne and still get sniped and instakilled sometimes and there's just nothing I can do about that. I could equip a Magatama that negates light or dark at expense of being weak to the other, but that doesnt stop an enemy from getting a back attack crit. I think that is distinctly different from being considered "hard" though
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Jun 9, 2021 01:38
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Naraku is absolutely where they put all the difficulty in IV, (and I do mean "all," because there's almost none in the entire rest of the game) but I don't think it's accurate to call it "hard," because it's not even playable if you get unlucky. If you get randomly ambushed you're just instantly dead in two hits, that's not "hard" it's just impossible. And because the rest of the game is so easy it doesn't make sense as any kind of consistent design decision so I'm hesitant to call any part of that game truly difficult. I didn't remember the exact context of the "tears" quote, but it makes a bit more sense knowing now it wasn't regarding anything in this series but the then-extremely novel Demon's Souls, and it wasn't even a dev but a Western community manager or something.
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Jun 9, 2021 01:45
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