|
Superman at his best written is thoughtful and compassionate in how he deals even with villains. He has to stop them, but especially for the ones that aren't mindless forces of destruction, he has a lot of sympathy for them. Maybe lean into that.
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2021 16:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 20:05 |
|
|
hulk hooligan posted:Any advice or resources on roleplaying a paladin of Torm? My initial attempts came off too much like a bad cross between Superman and a space marine, and I feel I'm doing it wrong. Are there sayings associated with them, mannerisms, any other things I can throw in for flavor?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2021 18:21
|
|
|
hulk hooligan posted:Any advice or resources on roleplaying a paladin of Torm? My initial attempts came off too much like a bad cross between Superman and a space marine, and I feel I'm doing it wrong. Are there sayings associated with them, mannerisms, any other things I can throw in for flavor? One of Torm's big things is that those in power need to not be abusing their power; one of the lines I remember reading about his worshippers is that they'd be the first to report a criminal to the Watch but if the Watch then proceeds to beat the crook in the streets they'll also be the first to tell them they should stop (and stop them, if they won't). So they try to uphold law and order and all that, but they're also about making sure those in power use that power well (one reason he and Bane obviously loathe each other). So loyalty is NOT a blind obedience thing for them and indeed can be very much "loyal opposition" when needed. Also, they work closely with the god of mercy, so compassion is certainly encouraged behavior. So you don't have to play Duddley Do-Right or order uber alles, they're supposed to use their brains. And, also, beyond what they're "supposed" to do, who says your character HAS to be good at being a paragon of goodness? Maybe he's struggling hard to do what Torm wants of him in certain circumstances. Doesn't even have to be something that most people would consider "bad" even; maybe some particular evil makes him so mad he doesn't exercise thinking like he's supposed to and just defaults to smashing no matter the circumstances. Or maybe he's had bad enough experiences with law enforcement to distrust them and instinctively wants to take the law in his own hands or at minimum "help" the Watch or similar to make sure they "do it right". A Tormite has a definite tension to play with between their duty to fight for certain things and their duty to not let their need to serve become a need to command.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2021 19:42
|
|
|
hulk hooligan posted:Any advice or resources on roleplaying a paladin of Torm? My initial attempts came off too much like a bad cross between Superman and a space marine, and I feel I'm doing it wrong. Are there sayings associated with them, mannerisms, any other things I can throw in for flavor? I'm tailoring the below assuming you're playing in the 5e Realms. Summarizing Faiths and Avatars: Torm's faith is dedicated to loyalty and obedience, but not blind obedience (following evil orders is no moral excuse). Salvation may be found through service, every failure diminishes Torm, and every success adds to his luster. Stand ever alert against corruption and strike quickly at any rot. Betrayers deserve quick death. Unjust laws are to be fixed by suggesting improvements or amendments, not adding to their burden. The fourfold duty is to faith, family, masters, and all good beings on Faerun. Tormish faithful give money, sanctuary, and training to knightly orders, loyal courtiers, and the agents they send to ferret out corruption across Faerun (particularly those in positions of authority who assert themselves as being righteous, godly, or acting with moral superiority.) Look for suitable converts to the faith and minister to them. Military action is sometimes necessary against the forces of evil, especially those who act unjustly or to weaken good laws. Adventuring Tormtar are given greater leeway, but must provide tithes to the church in exchange. Torm often speaks to his faithful, both to reassure that the adventuring Tormtar are acting with his permission, and to the adventuring Tormtar that they are doing good deeds. These adventurers are required to report back to the church on their journeys, experiences, and what they have learned, so that Torm's church may know about all of Faerun, despite guardianship being static by nature. (Tormish is an adjective meaning "of torm;" Tormtar is the noun for faithful of Torm.) Summarizing Elminster's Forgotten Realms: Creed: Be loyal, obedient, and dutiful, upholding laws, rules, and the most ethical stances through both unwavering support and armed vigilance. Seek corruption constantly and stamp it out. Give swift but brutal death to traitors. Where laws are unjust or flawed, urge improvements and alternatives rather than a confusion of ever more laws. Train law keepers and judges to be just, and watch over them to ensure that they perform with impartiality. Serve with all your heart as well as all your reason. Every failure of duty diminishes the Loyal Fury; every success empowers him and brightens the world. Be vigilant always. Question your actions and stances rather than sinking into the sin of self-righteousness. Torm watches you, and expects you to watch and guide others. Torm's clergy are known as the True and Loyal, and the Watchful Guardians. They're mostly just called the True Guardians, or the True for short. They're a strong part of secular politics and legal systems in most of the Realms, wherever there's public order and a ruler that's not a tyrant or beholden to another faith. They keep rulers and law enforcers fair and free from corruption, by training them and opposing them if necessary. They question unfair or racist policies, as well as policies that unnecessarily cause strife with other lands. Many resent the scrutiny and public judgment of the True, but grudgingly accept it as necessary, a shield against oppression. The True act to make sure rulers do not lose the faith of their citizens, or act to hurt them unnecessarily. The True act for justice and ethics, not personal gain or glory. Collecting personal wealth is frowned upon, especially if violence is used to gain it or hold it; if discovered those who have fallen to this temptation must make penance (a dangerous quest) or be cast out of the church. This does NOT apply to amassing weapons of war (including magic), which is seen as prudent. (Arivia's commentary: so collecting adventuring gear is fine, just don't Scrooge McDuck it up.) No sayings for them that I found in either source.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
I imagine detractors of Torm call his adherents Tormites.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2021 21:05
|
|
|
Mr. Lobe posted:I imagine detractors of Torm call his adherents Tormites. Not Tormentors?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2021 23:32
|
|
|
Isaacs Alter Ego posted:Not Tormentors? I imagine it's actually "those loving dorks in the full plate over there," but I digress.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 01:41
|
|
|
Isaacs Alter Ego posted:Not Tormentors? Sure why not, but I'm just speculating why they call themselves "tormtar". The alternative is to sound like they're calling themselves termites
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 02:49
|
|
|
Isaacs Alter Ego posted:Not Tormentors? I shall take my leave to the Tormitory for a quick nap. edit: Tormplars imagine dungeons fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Jun 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 03:01
|
|
|
Torminators
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 04:51
|
|
|
Isaacs Alter Ego posted:Not Tormentors? That's their youth mentoring program
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 05:40
|
|
|
Tormp
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 05:50
|
|
|
Y'all need to stop before Wizards hires Games Workshop writers and we end up with Tormplar Tormentors wielding Tormblades while riding in Battletorm Tormwagons with pintle-mounted Tormbows.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 09:28
|
|
|
Devorum posted:Y'all need to stop before Wizards hires Games Workshop writers and we end up with Tormplar Tormentors wielding Tormblades while riding in Battletorm Tormwagons with pintle-mounted Tormbows. More Helms for the Helm Throne! Actually, is Helm still dead?
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 09:55
|
|
|
denimgorilla posted:More Helms for the Helm Throne! Actually, is Helm still dead? No, he came back in 1486 DR...about a hundred years after his death.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 11:46
|
|
|
Devorum posted:Y'all need to stop before Wizards hires Games Workshop writers and we end up with Tormplar Tormentors wielding Tormblades while riding in Battletorm Tormwagons with pintle-mounted Tormbows. Fighting against Deriders on the Torm.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 13:35
|
|
|
“Which society were you a part of? Invictorms? Inceptorms? Intormors? Intormators?”
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 14:48
|
|
|
Tormtroopers
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2021 18:08
|
|
|
Devorum posted:No, he came back in 1486 DR...about a hundred years after his death. You know, people rightfully bag on the 4E Forgotten Realms world changes, but I find it terribly annoying they feel compelled to roll back every change with the gods (many from before 4th). Let some of those fuckers stay DEAD, for gods' sakes (pun intended). Felt like they went downright reactionary and every single deity from earlier just must come back like nothing happened. Bhaal and Myrkul in particular could have stayed dead, nothing of value was gained bringing them back. Feels more retcon than the original deaths and other changes were.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 04:59
|
|
|
MadDogMike posted:You know, people rightfully bag on the 4E Forgotten Realms world changes, but I find it terribly annoying they feel compelled to roll back every change with the gods (many from before 4th). Let some of those fuckers stay DEAD, for gods' sakes (pun intended). Felt like they went downright reactionary and every single deity from earlier just must come back like nothing happened. Bhaal and Myrkul in particular could have stayed dead, nothing of value was gained bringing them back. Feels more retcon than the original deaths and other changes were. Especially Bhaal since his whole thing was one of his kids getting his portfolio from Cyric. I was pretty young when Time of Troubles hit, and I thought it was awesome how they were willing to just kill gods and radically alter the world. The retcons kind of ruined that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 05:27
|
|
|
MadDogMike posted:You know, people rightfully bag on the 4E Forgotten Realms world changes, but I find it terribly annoying they feel compelled to roll back every change with the gods (many from before 4th). Let some of those fuckers stay DEAD, for gods' sakes (pun intended). Felt like they went downright reactionary and every single deity from earlier just must come back like nothing happened. Bhaal and Myrkul in particular could have stayed dead, nothing of value was gained bringing them back. Feels more retcon than the original deaths and other changes were. 5e was supposed to be "everyone's D&D" so they had to bring back all the D&D stuff that ever D&Ded ever, including gods that hadn't been alive in 20 years. So yes, it was reactionary, trying to make D&D feel like Mearls' childhood game again. Bhaal made a bit more sense at least as a product play, since it's real weird to explain to people that Baldur's Gate computer games were kind of separate/alternative canon stuff and Bhaal was just dead as far as the actual D&D setting was concerned. Murder in Baldur's Gate was perhaps the best of the 5e preview adventures, and neatly wrapped things up fine.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 06:47
|
|
|
Every edition of d&d takes place in a seperate crystal sphere with it's own cosmology. You can travel between these world in a magical sailing ship called an Edition Jammmer
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 07:02
|
|
|
The way that every bit of FR lore got handled in the last, like, twenty years feels like a case study in how to intentionally make people less invested in your world. There are way too many gods with redundant domains and personalities = not great Kill or merge a bunch of them offscreen in ways that made no sense = also no bueno Bring back E̷̡̨̜͈͋V̸̡͉̬̻̱̰̩͊͋Ë̷̲͔͍̮́́̑͑̀Ȑ̵͕̱͇͐͜Y̶̛̩̯̱͖͑̈́́̔̕ ̶̲͌̈́̎Ţ̶̢̱͙̦̫͂̅H̸̢̡͚̤͚͝Ĩ̵͙̈̀͂͝͝N̷̨̖̝̳̞͕͐̈́̀̀̅̋G̵͎̘̪͖̙̤̎̇ͅ = 
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 09:01
|
|
|
I am personally super not looking forward to attempting to get my players to understand the difference between Amaunator and Lathander which is semi-relevant to this campaign. I'm thinking long and hard about just ctrl-f'ing for Lathander and putting in Amaunator so I don't have to explain the difference between the sun and the dawn and how in some sense the two are aspects of a single being but are at the same time seperate gods like I'm loving Saint Patrick or something.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 10:01
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:Every edition of d&d takes place in a seperate crystal sphere with it's own cosmology. You can travel between these world in a magical sailing ship called an Edition Jammmer 
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 11:51
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:Every edition of d&d takes place in a seperate crystal sphere with it's own cosmology. You can travel between these world in a magical sailing ship called an Edition Jammmer that would be a hilarious (albeit terrible) campaign actually if you also had your characters changed to their edition equivalents
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 15:34
|
|
|
I must be the only person in the world who liked the Abeir-Toril thing, I thought it was a neat and abrupt way to smash a new species and a bunch of new monsters and intrigue onto a stuffy old world. I prefer my campaign settings to feel like dramatic stuff happens in them, especially dramatic stuff happening very recently that's shaken up the status quo, like Eberron's Day of Mourning, and it was close enough. Otherwise to me they feel too much like semi-interactive maps of Hobbiton or something, just "Well, here's a list of Dales, they are boring. Over here is evil wizard town, they've been evil for 700 years with no results, and of course magical elf island is here, perpetually mysterious."
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 15:54
|
|
|
If you're gonna do something like that, you need to not pull your punches and take it to its logical conclusion. If you're gonna have your Ragnarok, then afterwards you can't have Thor pop up afterwards and go "jk im still alive i was only pretending to be dead" just because people really like Thor and they're sad/mad he's dead.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 16:24
|
|
|
What should have happened in 4e was to just use a brand new setting based on points of light rather than make everything Forgotten Realms. More generally, Forgotten Realms has basically run its course. It has so much history and lore and, more problematically, too many players with strong opinions about it for it to be a good “game” setting. Leave it where it is. Write official adventures for a new setting.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 16:57
|
|
|
It's fine if you just take bits and pieces you like and ignore the rest, just sort of fill your plate up with the things you like or care about and ignore everything else like you were at a Chinese buffet
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 17:04
|
|
|
Related, I wonder if Wild Beyond the Witchlight will take place more recently or in the past. I know BG3 is "canon" and references Descent Into Avernus a ton to the point of kind of being a sequel, but Frostmaiden apparently takes place in 1489 so it seems like WoTC broke their promise to advance the chronology every year.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 17:07
|
|
|
nelson posted:What should have happened in 4e was to just use a brand new setting based on points of light rather than make everything Forgotten Realms. I mean, the Abeir-Toril thing happened in the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, not in the PHB (which was based on a non-FR Points of Light seting where dragonborn were from the ancient city of Arkhosia, not a mysterious interplanar sister planet). I feel like if there was a time and place for FR stuff, it was in the book about it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 17:14
|
|
|
nelson posted:What should have happened in 4e was to just use a brand new setting based on points of light rather than make everything Forgotten Realms. At a minimum, get the gently caress away from the Sword Coast. It's a big enough world that they could easily say "this new setting is totally the Forgotten Realms but the Sword Coast is thousands of miles away and doesn't really affect what's happening here" if they wanted. Leave that section of the map basically encased in amber and go create something new and fun somewhere else if they absolutely need it to continue to be FR.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 17:19
|
|
|
Reveilled posted:I am personally super not looking forward to attempting to get my players to understand the difference between Amaunator and Lathander which is semi-relevant to this campaign. I'm thinking long and hard about just ctrl-f'ing for Lathander and putting in Amaunator so I don't have to explain the difference between the sun and the dawn and how in some sense the two are aspects of a single being but are at the same time seperate gods like I'm loving Saint Patrick or something. This is the kind of stuff that I love about FR. You don't have to engage with it too deeply if you don't want to. Lathander is the chill hippy NG god of the dawn and new beginnings. Amaunator is the stern puritan LN/LG god of the eternal sun and the order it brings. That's all you really need to distinguish them and their clerics. But if you want, you can get into the weeds. Are Lathander and Amaunator aspects of the same being, different parts of a cycle? Or is that just a heresy that emerged among Lathander's worshipers after the ToT? Is the Bedine goddess At'ar The Merciless another aspect of same being? Or is she just a corruption of half-forgotten Netherese legends about their sun god? How does the Dawn Cataclysm factor into this? What does it mean that both churches are active now? How do different orders view each other? theironjef posted:I must be the only person in the world who liked the Abeir-Toril thing, I thought it was a neat and abrupt way to smash a new species and a bunch of new monsters and intrigue onto a stuffy old world. I prefer my campaign settings to feel like dramatic stuff happens in them, especially dramatic stuff happening very recently that's shaken up the status quo, like Eberron's Day of Mourning, and it was close enough. Otherwise to me they feel too much like semi-interactive maps of Hobbiton or something, just "Well, here's a list of Dales, they are boring. Over here is evil wizard town, they've been evil for 700 years with no results, and of course magical elf island is here, perpetually mysterious." There are some things I really liked about it. Some of the new villain groups, the Abolethic Sovereignty especially, were really nice additions to the setting. Replacing real world analogues like Unther and Mulhorand with more fantastical and less Orientalist places like Tymanther and High Imaskar was a good step towards dropping some of FR's worst baggage. Same goes for Returned Abeir displacing Maztica. Although asking Ed Greenwood to write an entire new continent, promoting it as a feature of the setting, then shunting it to the back of the book, and never doing anything with it was such a waste of effort and space. I also really like that the events of the Spellplague itself logically follow from the Avatar novels and are rooted in the same divine shenanigans that caused FR's previous Troubles. But at the same time, it treated a lot of FR's features like they were bugs. Making the pantheon more simple and generic sucked a lot of flavor out of the setting's religious aspects. All that deep lore that intimidates some is what appeals to others, and you can present the setting without getting into the weeds on it; see the excellent Grand Tour of the Realms from the 2E box. New villain groups that threaten the entire setting are just great, but they don't need to be added at the expense of more local and silly villain groups. Overall, I think most of the anti-4E Realms sentiment is just an extension of anti-4E sentiment and some poor product decisions. Had the Spell Plague been the RSE for a less divisive edition, it may have gone over much better. Had the 4E Realms received a lot of books like in previous editions, the lore junkies like Arivia and me would have had a lot more to sink our teeth into. Had the maps not been blurry, muddled messes with all the color of a cloudy evening sky, people may have become excited to explore this new version of the Realms. Seriously, those maps are godawful, hands down the worst part about those two 4E books. We got a glimpse of how great 4E FR could have been with the Neverwinter book. That book receives near-universal praise, and it is a 4E FR take on Neverwinter to its core.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 17:23
|
|
|
Azathoth posted:At a minimum, get the gently caress away from the Sword Coast. It's a big enough world that they could easily say "this new setting is totally the Forgotten Realms but the Sword Coast is thousands of miles away and doesn't really affect what's happening here" if they wanted. Leave that section of the map basically encased in amber and go create something new and fun somewhere else if they absolutely need it to continue to be FR. This is not how Branding works.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 18:24
|
|
|
It's weird with PeterWeller interacting more in this thread, it's like my twin is making my posts before I can. Pretty much everything he said was right on. I'd definitely like to see more stuff outside of the Sword Coast/the Western Heartlands, for sure. And I'll point out the late 4e Menzoberranzan book was quite good too, mostly rules-agnostic even! God, Neverwinter was great. I ran it for a year on here as a pbp. Arivia fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jun 14, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 18:26
|
|
|
Azathoth posted:If you're gonna do something like that, you need to not pull your punches and take it to its logical conclusion. If you're gonna have your Ragnarok, then afterwards you can't have Thor pop up afterwards and go "jk im still alive i was only pretending to be dead" just because people really like Thor and they're sad/mad he's dead. ...Basically every setting should just do what I personally want it to do. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 23:27
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:This is the kind of stuff that I love about FR. You don't have to engage with it too deeply if you don't want to. Lathander is the chill hippy NG god of the dawn and new beginnings. Amaunator is the stern puritan LN/LG god of the eternal sun and the order it brings. That's all you really need to distinguish them and their clerics. In truth it's also absolutely the stuff I love about FR too, and if I could just leave it as "hippy Lathander / puritan Amaunator" it'd be fine, but even though my players know very little about FR lore beyond what I deliver to them in session, I can guarantee that a few of them are going to immediately ask "hang on, why are there two sun gods?", and I actually really want that--we've got flashbacks in this campaign to times when Amaunator was dead, and I want keen players to spot that Amaunator has largely supplanted Lathander worship in Elturel in the intervening years, and ponder what that means for the character of the city; we're also going to do a campaign after this which has a netherese connection, so this works as foreshadowing. So at some point the players are going to corner a priest of Lathander when they find one and start asking lots of questions, and that's the point where I probably need to give a sermon that will satisfy my players thirst for answers, be engaging, but also not go so far into the weeds that the players assume this is directly relevant to wheit main plot quest, and also be broadly comprehensible to someone who has almost no background knowledge. It's going to be a challenge, especially when I don't want to say the real reason there's two active sun gods in recent years, which is that Wizards made the 5e lore by just dumping all of 3e and 4e's lore in a bucket, stirring for 20 seconds and calling it 100 years.
|
|
#
?
Jun 14, 2021 23:36
|
|
|
Reveilled posted:In truth it's also absolutely the stuff I love about FR too, and if I could just leave it as "hippy Lathander / puritan Amaunator" it'd be fine, but even though my players know very little about FR lore beyond what I deliver to them in session, I can guarantee that a few of them are going to immediately ask "hang on, why are there two sun gods?", and I actually really want that--we've got flashbacks in this campaign to times when Amaunator was dead, and I want keen players to spot that Amaunator has largely supplanted Lathander worship in Elturel in the intervening years, and ponder what that means for the character of the city; we're also going to do a campaign after this which has a netherese connection, so this works as foreshadowing. There's probably enough grist to make a completely separate narrative out of Daelegoth Orndeir's crusade to create the Eternal Sun (in Power of Faerun) and then the stuff about Elturel in Descent into Avernus. The pieces don't QUITE match up (Justin Alexander has been over it on his blog when he revised DiA), but you can certainly make the case for Amaunator being important and vital. Then you have a priest of Lathander talking about how he's too stern and not engaging enough, et cetera.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2021 01:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 20:05 |
|
|
Enjoy fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jun 15, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2021 16:17
|
|