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Interestingly, the didache mentions abortion but not homosexuality. Abortion certainly wasn't unknown in ancient times.
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Jun 13, 2021 06:35
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This is just my bugbear but the whole "oh the old testament god is a bad guy but the new one is ok I know because I read the texts" is kind of lovely given the thousands of years of Jewish thought and discussion about the old testament. Like you're just brushing aside an entire ethnoreligion there without a thought.
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Jun 13, 2021 07:24
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Militant politicized evangelism is a republican death cult with very few ties to actual christendom. I'd caution you against trying to reason people out of a position they never used reason to get into. Best you can do is to offer yourself as a way out when some of them inevitably crack from all the fear and abuse. Also, abortion chat is kinda one of the subjects we'd rather not discuss in here.
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Jun 13, 2021 07:32
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Lutha Mahtin posted:if this post reflects the amount of thought and effort you put into it, i can see why you gave up. if it's not clear: i am not being complimentary How so? I will admit I moved on from the church when I was young, so I never spent that much time on theological issues. Your post seems unnecessarily hostile, but I don't really mind. Honestly, the other reason I drifted away from the church in my late teens is because I'm bisexual, and there really wasn't a place for that in any of the available churches. Now, I'm aware that there are more LGBT-friendly churches around now, but I always found the idea of "God is love, but you have to deal with the majority of his worshippers hating parts your core identity" difficult to handle.
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Jun 13, 2021 08:58
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Tias posted:Militant politicized evangelism is a republican death cult with very few ties to actual christendom. I'd caution you against trying to reason people out of a position they never used reason to get into. Best you can do is to offer yourself as a way out when some of them inevitably crack from all the fear and abuse. I have done that. Abortion chat to my understanding here was allowed if respectful, but I can move past it. As for me being dismissive of the old testament it’s interpretation of God and then being dismissive of a Jewish people, I’m not. I’m simply saying that people seem to pick and choose Bible verses to make whatever argument they’re trying to make, and then when you look at the context as a whole, most issues aren’t so clear-cut as to what is or isn’t allowed in the Bible minus the 10 commandments. I will say the overall responses in this thread are encouraging to me that not all Christians are falling into the death cult thing that family members of mine have. That was actually the words I used to describe it last summer to friends I was venting to. They’ve joined a death cult.
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Jun 13, 2021 09:13
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So as most of you know, I'm engaged to a fantastic, amazing pulpit  rabbi. What I don't think you know (and maybe I don't exactly know because it's so soon! I've been waiting for this for so long) Is that our wedding is in about two weeks. Ahhh! Exciting! We decided to have a destination wedding in Hawaii tryand invite the entire congregation. That way everyone feels included and we can still have an intimate wedding. The Shabbat before the wedding, we have a celebration in the synagogue. That's this week!!! This celebration is called an aufruf.  There are some honors given to the groom and the men traditionally. That's not our style, so we are both going to be called to the Torah, as well as any relatives that can attend (and who want an honor). The rabbi and I are both going to chant from the Torah, but we haven't broken up the sections yet. I'm pretty rusty at cantillation, but also anxious to honor the Torah with my chanting so that should provide some fuel for that.I have the food mostly planned out. In case you have the cultural background to wonder this, yes of course I have a fantastic hat. Should I provide a photo? I'm going to ask you all to help me with something if you can... encouragement and ideas would make me Feel so grateful and supported <3 What do I need help with? I somehow convinced my fiance that at this celebration, I get to give the sermon from the pulpit, and he's going to give a few words in the role of the lay person  Here's what I'm thinking - I need to write this thing, and I need to say something about names in this sermon because I'm taking his last name, and I changed my first name in approximately 2011. I'd like to say something about like taking his name doesn't mean I agree with him, and here are some examples - we approach theodicy completely differently, I think his approach to the afterlife contains a logical fallacy, that kind of theological diversity. Then I want to say that our community is a family too, and in families we don't throw people out because of difference. All families have some weird aunt who makes you uncomfortable. They are still family. We can be strong enough in our selves to listen to people we disagree with in our family. That doesn't mean tolerating abuse, or listening politely to relatives denying your basic humanity. That is in fact, one reason we build these communities. Etc. But I need to connect my ideas to the weekly portion somehow... It will be parashat Chukat, which represents Numbers 19:1-22:1, so some themes are... Corpse contamination, red heifer... Miriam's death, the Moses's sins by striking the rock rather than speaking to it, as God had told him to do...kingdom of Edom refuses to let the Israelites pass through their land. Aaron dies, mourning, more complaining. Then in chapter 21 there's the firey snake episode... Israelites complain against God, he sends down 50 firey snakes. Then to get rid of firey snake illness, God tells Moses to erect a brass statue of the firey snake, then if you have those symptoms, look at the snake. Then there's a whole other incident that I feel doesn't get covered that often where the Israelites sing to a well "come up, well." Then there's a lot of smiting. So yeah... How am I going to I interweave something from the Torah into those ideas? A red heifer is like a ... Red heifer is the only specifically female animal sacrifice I think. Maybe I can contrast the two well episodes and talk about sibling death and how it seems to change the character of Moses. The firey snake thing is fascinating as a psychologist... Ideas and clarification questions very invited! Okay that's where I'm at right now, kinda overwhelmed but okay happty. Love and light to all of you.
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Jun 13, 2021 10:32
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Oh wow congrats Wren!!
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Jun 13, 2021 10:47
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LionArcher posted:I have done that. The question of textual interpretation is a complex one. I actually doubt that textual literalism, as in "the Bible said it, no matter what 'it' is, therefore it goes" is a majority position in the United States, much less anywhere else. (And you will find, if you dig, that they have rationalizations for the parts they don't like.)
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Jun 13, 2021 10:51
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Nessus posted:The question of textual interpretation is a complex one. I actually doubt that textual literalism, as in "the Bible said it, no matter what 'it' is, therefore it goes" is a majority position in the United States, much less anywhere else. (And you will find, if you dig, that they have rationalizations for the parts they don't like.) Like the prosperity gospel's take on the bit about a camel and a needle. Where they try to imply Jesus for some reason just said 'It's actually easy for rich people to go to heaven!" one day.
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Jun 13, 2021 11:00
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military cervix posted:How so? I will admit I moved on from the church when I was young, so I never spent that much time on theological issues. Your post seems unnecessarily hostile, but I don't really mind. The thing is, the so-called 'problem of evil' is an issue that's been debated, turned over, thought about, argued about and wrangled with for millennia. 'Bad things happen, therefore God is either non-existent or bad' is sort of a surface-level thinking. And it's cool if that's where you are, I reckon - nobody needs to dive deep into theological thought if they don't want to. And it's quite possible to go through all the thinking and reading and consideration and still end up with the same opinion in the end, for sure. I've spoken at length in this thread before about why I think bad things happen and it isn't because God makes them happen or just sort of chooses to allow it. But part of faith is starting from the belief that God is good and working upwards from there, so it's nothing that would convince anyone else really. e: I went back and my long post was in the old thread but here's what I said back in January: 'I did an effortpost back in the thread* about what I believe about why the world is the way that it is and why that isn't incompatible with a benevolent God. The short version I guess is that - God didn't *create* say, earthquakes. They're a natural physical consequence of how the planet is built. It might be that a tectonically active planet is necessary for life to exist at all and you get earthquakes as a result of that. That sort of thing. I mean I doubt we're going to solve The Problem Of Evil in this thread when people have fretted on it for millennia. But for me at least, that's part of faith. Not accepting that bad things happen and that's All God's Plan and so we shouldn't fix it. But accepting that bad things happen because of the nature of humanity's free will, or the nature of the planet, or how our biology sometimes goes wonky, and God's plan is that we *should* try to fix it. I don't know why that's God's plan, but I believe in a God of love and compassion, so I trust him. That's where faith is. You can't reason your way to an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God in the world we have. *e: it was in the old thread sorry, it wasn't super insightful anyway, I ain't no expert ' HopperUK fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Jun 13, 2021 |
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Jun 13, 2021 11:03
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HopperUK posted:'I did an effortpost back in the thread* about what I believe about why the world is the way that it is and why that isn't incompatible with a benevolent God. The short version I guess is that - God didn't *create* say, earthquakes. They're a natural physical consequence of how the planet is built. It might be that a tectonically active planet is necessary for life to exist at all and you get earthquakes as a result of that. That sort of thing. If God is omnipotent, and also the creator of the Universe, why did He make it that way? Could He not have done it differently? A lot of this, I think, is the collision of ultimates.
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Jun 13, 2021 11:25
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I think that's a fair response. Even though I haven't done a whole lot of theological reading myself as with regards to the problem of evil, I was presented with some of the common responses back in my time at church. At the time, my sister had a major brain tumor, which she luckily survived, but suffered permanent brain damage. The responses I normally got when talking about this with my christian peers were basically "God allows natural evil for some unclear reason" and "God works in inscrutable ways". Both of which I found didn't really adress the core issue in any satisfying way, and left me pretty cold on the whole "God is love"-idea. I guess I had what a friend called a Candide-moment, and never really recovered my faith. I realize this is rehashing an argument that as you said has been fought for millenia, so I'll leave it at that.
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Jun 13, 2021 12:10
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This gets into what I was thinking about re theodicy as well. If there is only one God, a central pillar of my faith, there is only one source of energy in the universe, than evil is part of God. I think other attempts tend to limit themselves by imposing a false duality.
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Jun 13, 2021 12:50
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Wren, I'm not Jewish and certainly don't have the Torah knowledge you have and have demonstrated. An idea I had reading your post, though, is perhaps to step back and talk more generally about why these rules were necessary, and how creating a community is harder than it looks. Then you can segue from that into your planned points of emphasis. Congratulations to you, and even though you think you have a lot of responsibility here, take the time to enjoy the moment. It will be a wonderful day for you.
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Jun 13, 2021 13:43
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Might be too simplistic but is it possible to go from moses striking the rock instead of speaking to it to ideas about accepting your family despite differences instead of distancing yourself from them?
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Jun 13, 2021 16:33
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Nessus posted:I think this is an entirely reasonable attitude but I think there is a loose end yet hanging. Yeah, this is tricky to get around. I'm a physicist by training so the beautiful elegance of the universe's laws interlocking in such a way that creatures like us could exist is something I think about a lot. I'm not oblivious to the fallacy whereby of *course* we live in a universe where we could exist, because otherwise we wouldn't - like drawing a circle around a dart and then acting startled that the dart is in the circle, what are the odds - but perhaps this kind of universe is the only one that could work. Again I think some of this falls into faith. Like it's definitely more rational, to me, to be an atheist, to believe that the universe happened more or less by accident and that things happen for the obvious physical causes that they happen, and I believe most of that, but it just doesn't quite satisfy every question I have. I don't think, as some do, that atheism is a foolish or a misguided idea or that there's no morality without God or any of that. It's just not my position these days.
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Jun 13, 2021 16:42
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military cervix posted:How so? I will admit I moved on from the church when I was young, so I never spent that much time on theological issues. Your post seems unnecessarily hostile, but I don't really mind. hopper covered part of this, but another part of why i responded to your first post like that is that this thread unfortunately has a lot of drive-by posts that are indistinguishable to yours, in terms of seeming to put an insultingly small amount of thought into their casual dismissal of a major theological issue that has been debated by really smart people for thousands of years, and it is impossible to tell if they are genuine or are trying to stir poo poo up. if i missed the mark, fair enough, but in my experience it saves this thread an enormous amount of time to be a little probing when people come in here and make a first post similar to yours in order to figure out whether their intention is to be an rear end or not also you are correct, churches are continuing to get better on gay rights and affirming sexuality and gender issues. but unless you are quite old, like on the old end of the baby boomers, i think it's worth pointing out that there have been gay friendly churches since you were a child
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Jun 13, 2021 21:23
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Lutha Mahtin posted:
Maybe not everywhere though, eh?
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Jun 13, 2021 22:09
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HopperUK posted:Maybe not everywhere though, eh? This one has largely stopped but I remember in a previous kalpa of thread existence there would be a pretty steady flow of people coming in and saying 'why aren't you guys out there fighting against American Evangelical Protestant Christianity?' when, like, a. a fair number of us arguably do in so far as that is meaningful at all, and b. you join your religion to be in your religion, not to fight another religion
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Jun 13, 2021 22:23
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Nessus posted:You kind of get a scale issue here. In a very real way if you grow up in Townsburg, your experience of Christianity or any other religion will either be reports online (and that fairly recently) or 'whatever the churches in Townsburg are,' which could include only conservative denominations. On the other hand, it is a sort of erasure to say 'well, only those denominations COUNT' and a lot of people do that. Ah yeah Prester Jane used to do that now and again. I hope she's doing better these days.
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Jun 13, 2021 22:29
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HopperUK posted:Maybe not everywhere though, eh? well yes, but a continual problem we have in this thread, and i feel like we have in the English speaking world in general, is the tendency to be very sloppy on the topic of religion when it comes to accurately talking about the diversity of thought and practice of an entire religion and its many various sub-communities vs. some opinion a single person has based on their own personal experience
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Jun 13, 2021 22:52
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Lutha Mahtin posted:well yes, but a continual problem we have in this thread, and i feel like we have in the English speaking world in general, is the tendency to be very sloppy on the topic of religion when it comes to accurately talking about the diversity of thought and practice of an entire religion and its many various sub-communities vs. some opinion a single person has based on their own personal experience That's true. I suppose I was only thinking that the poster was talking about their local area. I am quite tired today.
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Jun 13, 2021 22:53
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I listen to a lot of Satanic death/black metal bands. Sometimes I wonder wtf are these people doing to get that energy about Satan. I guess its mostly symbolic. I listen to it because they are really good musicians. I probably should not listen to them being a Christian though. If Satan exist and God sends people to Hell, I'm screwed. Maybe there's some bands "down there" though. I've been reading Anton LaVey books since my teen years. They are humanistic books mainly (besides the chapter on -( "making the choice for a human sacrifice") which scares the hell out of me if people are actually doing that. But, I would not doubt they are doing this with all the crazy people in the world killing people. Spacegrass fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 13, 2021 23:48
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Spacegrass posted:I listen to a lot of Satanic death/black metal bands. Sometimes I wonder wtf are these people doing to get that energy about Satan. I guess its mostly symbolic. I listen to it because they are really good musicians. I probably should not listen to them being a Christian though. If Satan exist and God sends people to Hell, I'm screwed. Maybe there's some bands "down there" though.
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Jun 13, 2021 23:52
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Lutha Mahtin posted:well yes, but a continual problem we have in this thread, and i feel like we have in the English speaking world in general, is the tendency to be very sloppy on the topic of religion when it comes to accurately talking about the diversity of thought and practice of an entire religion and its many various sub-communities vs. some opinion a single person has based on their own personal experience It seems like a lot of people who leave Christianity because of growing up in a very oppressive fundamentalist environment still hold on to the belief that their former denomination’s tenets are the truest expression of Christianity, so if they can disprove any single article of faith then all of Christianity, and by extension all religion, is false.
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Jun 14, 2021 01:05
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White Coke posted:It seems like a lot of people who leave Christianity because of growing up in a very oppressive fundamentalist environment still hold on to the belief that their former denomination’s tenets are the truest expression of Christianity, so if they can disprove any single article of faith then all of Christianity, and by extension all religion, is false. It's deeper than that. Most of those people also come from abusive households. When your family, the people who raised you, have spent most of your life gaslighting you and intentionally lying to you to give themselves power, then catching anyone else lying to you tends to also break any form of trust you might ever have in them. It's not a question of 'truest expression', it's 'The people who raised me told me this is True, and lied to me about everything in order to control me. Now I see lies that denomination pushed, how can I trust anyone else's unprovable claims?' Some people get past it and find faith, often through community. Others don't. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 08:12
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Spacegrass posted:I listen to a lot of Satanic death/black metal bands. Sometimes I wonder wtf are these people doing to get that energy about Satan. I guess its mostly symbolic. I listen to it because they are really good musicians. I probably should not listen to them being a Christian though. If Satan exist and God sends people to Hell, I'm screwed. Maybe there's some bands "down there" though. As someone who was always deep into the Standing Outside God Covered In The Blood of the Goat (tm) TrVe cVlt milieu: Some bands fake it for the rep, others are laveyans, still others practice theist satanism, and most are just metal enthusiasts with big egos who employ a cultural and musical tradition to feel awesome and be (in)famous. Actual human sacrifice from a satanist band would be an extreme outlier, and I haven't heard about any yet, though I've definitely been interested and looked.
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Jun 14, 2021 08:52
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Since I was the one that started this discussion, I'll make a comment: I think you're being a little uncharitable and honestly a little patronizing. I'm fully aware that there are churches that are pro-LGBTQ-rights, and my guess is that most people complaining about gay rights in christianity are fully aware of this as well. I think it is possible to recognize that there is a diversity of christian thought on this issue, while still thinking that it is a huge problem that anti-gay sentiments are so common among the largest churches in the world. When I was growing up and lost faith, there were no churches in my area that accepted homosexuality. Now that doesn't mean I grew up with any sort of abuse, or that I grew up in christian fundamentalist environment. In recent years the norwegian state church has grown to accept gay marriage, but still allows priests to decide for themselves whether they want to marry homosexual couples. This sort of tolerance of intolerance is not something I want to be involved in.
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Jun 14, 2021 08:54
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I don’t know, for me personally it feels weird to approach faith by deciding what I do or don’t like, or what I do or don’t want to believe. Like shopping or something- “well I like bacon, so that’s a no to Islam or Judaism… Don’t like the whole ‘love your enemy’ thing, so Christianity is out…” Plus I don’t believe I have a perfect understanding of morality. There are things I thought were no big deal before I restarted my faith journey but now I understand why my faith teaches what is does about those things.
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Jun 14, 2021 19:10
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It is true that at some point it comes down to whether you believe in God or not, not some list of attributes the religion you're interested in should ideally have. For me my loss faith came alongside with my withdrawal from the church, but those two things are not necessarily the same. To me it seems like a way of minimizing a problem when talk of it in this thread is portrayed as just individual experiences and something that pertains to fundamentalist churches. That really isn't the case. The largest church in the world is routinely lobbying to make sure that people like me don't have the same rights as everyone else. I think you can be aware of the existence of a myriad of different churches and a myriad of different takes, and still find the overall landscape of christianity pretty off-putting for gay people.
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Jun 14, 2021 19:52
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Zazz Razzamatazz posted:I don’t know, for me personally it feels weird to approach faith by deciding what I do or don’t like, or what I do or don’t want to believe. Like shopping or something- “well I like bacon, so that’s a no to Islam or Judaism… Don’t like the whole ‘love your enemy’ thing, so Christianity is out…” It does open up the interesting of question of how people choose their religion, particularly the ones who weren't born into it. I assume many of them do reject any religion which does not align with their primary moral ideals out of hand, but I have no data to back up this assertion.
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Jun 14, 2021 20:41
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military cervix posted:It is true that at some point it comes down to whether you believe in God or not, not some list of attributes the religion you're interested in should ideally have. For me my loss faith came alongside with my withdrawal from the church, but those two things are not necessarily the same. if you think this is the appropriate and correct way to boil down the entirety of the catholic church's social teachings that affect queer people, my response to you is: lol if you think it is appropriate to "same" churches, and rank them by size, instead of encountering each one as a semi-related but distinct group of people, my response is, again, lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2021 22:59
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I don't really have any good additions to this conversation, but this exact discussion is a recurring one in my life. I'm a lesbian Catholic in a long-term relationship with a woman who regularly attends mass with my three queer anarchist friends. We aren't stellar Catholics by any means. It was never truly an option for any of us to convert back to Protestantism or stop believing altogether. We belong in the Church and we find ways to persevere, even though I agree that some parts of the Church are very good at alienating folks like me.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:20
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military cervix posted:Since I was the one that started this discussion, I'll make a comment: I think you're being a little uncharitable and honestly a little patronizing. I'm fully aware that there are churches that are pro-LGBTQ-rights, and my guess is that most people complaining about gay rights in christianity are fully aware of this as well. I think it is possible to recognize that there is a diversity of christian thought on this issue, while still thinking that it is a huge problem that anti-gay sentiments are so common among the largest churches in the world. Each priest is allowed to decide on their own? It's not done by like a vote of the local congregations? I'd hazard a guess it might be in part due to the Church of Norway being a state church. That's not an excuse for intolerance, but might be one reason for the situation in what's otherwise a very LGBTQ-friendly nation. Sort of like the Catholic Church, even if many individual members disagree with church doctrine on, for example, LGBTQ issues, it's a big hierarchical organization and it's hard to push back against institutional inertia.
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Jun 15, 2021 02:35
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Lutha Mahtin posted:if you think this is the appropriate and correct way to boil down the entirety of the catholic church's social teachings that affect queer people, my response to you is: lol Is lobbying against gay people having rights a full summary of the catholic treatment of gay people? Obviously not, and I never implied it was either. Still, I think it is pretty significant. If you want to blow it off, that is your prerogative. As someone who left church because of how they treated gay people, my concern is primarily with how christianity is treating gay people. In that sense, being concerned with what the largest churches are doing is obviously correct. If you want to argue in terms of theology, such an approach is worthless, but that's really not what I'm talking about. Nonetheless, your posts have made it pretty clear that I'm not welcome in this thread, so I'll leave myself out.
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Jun 15, 2021 07:09
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military cervix posted:Is lobbying against gay people having rights a full summary of the catholic treatment of gay people? Obviously not, and I never implied it was either. Still, I think it is pretty significant. If you want to blow it off, that is your prerogative. What on earth? A very large proportion of the thread regulars here are queer, broadly (LGBTQ+, non cis het, etc). This thread has historically been extremely, exceptionally tolerant of queer people for an internet religion space. Lutha Mahtin is being abrasive and a bit of an rear end in a top hat, that is kind of his thing (and fitting for his theological/historical namesake). In this case it's not amusing, it's actually pretty bad because he's driving you off from a thread which we all have cherished for years as a loving accepting place to talk about religion. It's the only genuinely LGBTQ+ friendly space I've encountered to talk religion. LM, kindly: gently caress off.
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Jun 15, 2021 07:30
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What are your favorite places in Rome??? Making. Travel plan...
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Jun 15, 2021 07:35
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military cervix posted:Is lobbying against gay people having rights a full summary of the catholic treatment of gay people? Obviously not, and I never implied it was either. Still, I think it is pretty significant. If you want to blow it off, that is your prerogative. I would ask - and this may have gotten lost in the shuffle - if you're looking for a particular topic relevant to the specific area. You actually have a unique territory of experience because I know nothing about the Norwegian church (beyond anti-gay attitudes as you describe). At a certain point I think that everyone basically agrees with you, or if they disagree it is on relatively slim nuances of theology, rather than "actually, I think they should be MORE anti-gay, and keep the queers in their closets." e: to be clear expressing your feelings is completely legitimate here, you don't "have" to do anything or have some great goal to post it up about faith and its discontents Nessus fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 07:36
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WrenP-Complete posted:What are your favorite places in Rome??? Making. Travel plan... Honestly I just bumbled around and saw things. Maybe that's not terribly helpful but there is so much history there that you can just walk around and behind every corner is an ancient ruin or whatever. Really the density of "cool poo poo" in Rome is so high idk what to recommend. I will caution that you might quickly burn out on art museums. I was in Florence for a week then Rome for a week and we went to four huge art museums. I was pretty uninterested by the third. I would definitely recommend focusing your art and historical visits on a few things that are super interesting to you.
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Jun 15, 2021 07:49
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Fritz the Horse posted:Each priest is allowed to decide on their own? It's not done by like a vote of the local congregations? I can answer this isn case military cervix doesn't return. The Norwegian state church allows priests to individually abstain from officiating same-sex marriages, but in case no priest in your local parish wants to marry you, it's the Church's responsibility to provide you with one that will. This is also the case for divorcees remarrying. Another thing to note is that the Norwegian State Church has regular elections to their congress, where all registered members of the church (about 78% of Norwegians iirc) can vote. The deciding factor in the church allowing same-sex marriage was a massive surge in interest among the general population on this particular issue. This means the relative conservativeness of the church is all down to its tolerance to intolerance.
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Jun 15, 2021 08:36
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