Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

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Mr. Fix It: Oct 26, 2000; 💀ayyy💀

FreudianSlippers posted:

The world is divided on the big issues

this is magnum chaz erasure

# ? Jun 1, 2021 01:26

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# ? May 10, 2024 06:08

Gaius Marius: Oct 9, 2012

Where is Gross Karl?

# ? Jun 1, 2021 01:31

Brawnfire: Jul 13, 2004; 🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

I like to call him Junior Pippin

# ? Jun 1, 2021 03:20

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Big Chuckus, surely

# ? Jun 1, 2021 07:02

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

Karl der Gro�e

Gro�er Karl

Karl, Gro� (eins, 1)

# ? Jun 1, 2021 07:16

Fuschia tude: Dec 26, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019

Lawman 0 posted:

Hey so do archeologists think that the modern Assyrians are the ancient Assyrians, or is that just bunk?

I actually had a fascinating conversation with an Assyrian on a Youtube comment section of all places last year. They definitely do, at least.

# ? Jun 1, 2021 10:13

Zopotantor: Feb 24, 2013; ...und ist er drin dann lassen wir ihn niemals wieder raus...

Tias posted:

Big Chuckus, surely

Thicc Chucc

# ? Jun 1, 2021 11:15

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

And now I'm blaring Christoper Lee power metal ballads at 8am

# ? Jun 1, 2021 14:03

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

skasion posted:

There�s something about the matter of fact tone of these medieval findings of fact that is incredibly hilarious to me. The Record always follows this specific format like �there was no wound on him, except only that his skull was utterly broken even unto the brain� or whatever

That seems like it might be a syntax thing, like we'd put 'No other injuries' at the end instead. English changes a lot.

# ? Jun 1, 2021 16:44

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

Fuschia tude posted:

I actually had a fascinating conversation with an Assyrian on a Youtube comment section of all places last year. They definitely do, at least.

That's really interesting! Did they give you any particular insights?

# ? Jun 1, 2021 18:46

Bobby Digital: Sep 4, 2009

https://twitter.com/csmfht/status/1400322566779117568?s=21

# ? Jun 3, 2021 23:59

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

Bobby Digital posted:

https://twitter.com/csmfht/status/1400322566779117568?s=21

where's the rest?

# ? Jun 4, 2021 00:16

FreudianSlippers: Apr 12, 2010; Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

Gaius Marius posted:

Where is Gross Karl?

Not much.

Where's Gross Karl with you?

# ? Jun 4, 2021 01:32

Fuschia tude: Dec 26, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019

Lawman 0 posted:

That's really interesting! Did they give you any particular insights?

Yeah kinda. It was on basically a podcast video discussing the plot of a game at the end of an LP series, so all in the context of and in comparison to fictional wars and empires. He was talking about survivor's guilt and how he probably won't get married.

quote:

But how does genocide affect someone more personally? Well for starters, I'm probably never going to get married. You might think I'm just being silly, but it's a big problem for all native minorities. You think it's hard finding "the one"? Ha! Get over yourself, imagine if 99.9% of every potential partner was automatically disqualified for not being the same people as you. You guys have it easy! And if you bring up this preference, people think you're some kind of narrow-minded supremacist. I mean sure, I could easily marry a European, and I would probably get my personal happiness if I did. But then that's the end of the line for my people as far as I can help it. Then I've thrown in the towel and let those who tried to wipe us out win. If we had our own country I wouldn't care that much, that country would always keep the language and culture alive, even if I fail. But now it's all up to each individual to not get assimilated. Majority people often have a hard time understanding these struggles or just think they're backwards because they don't have that kind of responsibility on their shoulders.

I barely managed to learn our native Aramaic language, and my mother was a fluent speaker. I only started getting interested in our language the older I got, because kids are kind of lazy and stubborn that way. To learn about our most basic history, the evolution of our language and older traditions, I had to study like a scholar, going to obscure sources and the depths of the internet, reading books, learn the Aramaic alphabet etc. I have to basically get myself a phd to learn the same things everyone else learns about your their culture in 4th grade.

Now, if I marry a European or other, are my kids gonna be bothered to go through that whole ordeal, when I barely did as a full-blood? Small chance. What are they going to mostly identify themselves as?

"Well, my mom is European, all my friends in school are European. So what am I? European... or that weird obscure thing my dad is that barely he knows anything about?"

For all intents and purposes, they're going to chose the heritage that is most practical and popular, and the other side will be lost. So what do I do? My ancestors were killed for what they believed and what they were. Should I keep trying to find the right person in my own people, to make sure their legacy lives on, or should I abandon them to have a bigger chance at my own personal happiness?

This it what it means that a genocide can't be repaired, the damage is already done.

One thing I didn't know was that along with the Armenian genocide by the Ottomans, they were also targeted. Apparently most of those alive today are descended from those who were able to hole up in the mountain monastery fortress of Iwardo and resisted the two-month-long siege.

But another thing he points out is there's no real trace of the OG historical Assyrians left; they basically assimilated and were absorbed into the wider Aramean population millennia ago after their own empire disintegrated, including adopting their language and culture and then a few centuries later converting to Christianity, so that's a more accurate term. And as he sees it, the term "Assyrian" was basically revived by the British in the 1800s as a marketing gimmick as they were looking for an ally to start arming in the region.

quote:

Here's the thing, most of us don't consider ourselves Assyrians! We are actually Syriacs/Syrians or Arameans!

Let me explain. First things first:

"Syriac" = "Syrian". It's the exact same word with different spelling. We prefer to call ourselves Syriac these days to not be confused with the 90% Arab population of modern Syria.

"Syrian" = the Greek word for "Aramean". (confusing, I know.)

Since the Assyrians relocated a bunch of Arameans into their heartland, their Akkadian language eventually died and was replaced with Aramean. When the empire collapsed, there is no evidence that any Assyrian identity survived, they were pretty much absorbed into the general Aramean population. They lost their language, they lost their nation and culture, and if anything remained of their religion it was later gone when Christianity came.
Fast forward to the time of Christ, most of the population of the Middle East considered themselves Arameans. So although SOME of my ancestors were Assyrians, for all intents and purposes, they were mostly Arameans. They assimilated together.

Now, we were actually among the first peoples to convert to Christianity, and started the Syrian (Aramean) Orthodox Church of Antioch. It's even mentioned in the bible (Acts 11:20)

The reason they called it the Syrian church, is because, like we established, that is what the Greeks called the Arameans. And Christianity had close ties to Greek, the bible was written in it after all.

So as people joined the church, they started calling themselves Syrians. Anyone who still called themselves Aramean or even Assyrian was considered a pagan, and not part of the Christian rebirth.

This marked the beginning of a new Christian era for our people, and we adopted a new name to signify that. For 2000 years we have called ourselves Syrians, and sometimes Arameans when talking about the pre-Christian era. We are still connected to our Aramean ancestors through the same language though.

During this 2000 year period, our culture change completely from what it was before, and became tied to our Christianity. Pacifism and monasticism became some of the highest virtues to us.

We did have the small kingdom of Osrone in the first few centuries, which was a center of our culture. But aside from that, all of our literature, intellectual culture, science and linguistics survived thanks to monks. We could have hundreds of monks at the time, so much that they were practically considered a social class. Some of our most valued cultural treasures are our ancient monasteries (which are sadly being destroyed and taken over by Muslims to this day).

Basically, for almost 2000 years, we've been pretty much the polar opposite of the ancient Assyrians.

BUT, fast forward to the 1800s. British archaeologists went to Iraq to study ancient Assyrian ruins. When they found Aramaic speaking Christians there, they drew the conclusion that they had to be the descendants of the Assyrians, which was partly true!

The problem was, they started arming and training the people there so they could have a closer ally in the region. To instill a sense of nationalism, they started calling themselves Assyrians, even though we haven't used that name in over 2000 years!

They basically started a revisionist political movement that started spreading among our population in other parts of the Middle East. And to this day it's a thing that divides our people. I only mentioned the modern day Assyrians to begin with, because depending on where you live, you might be more familiar with that faction, but now I kind of regret that I brought it up.

I'm part of the original faction that call ourselves Syrians or Arameans. We still value pacifism and Christianity. But the Assyrian faction wants to undo 2500 years of history to go back to the "glory days" of the Assyrian kingdom. They still have some respect for the church, but hate that our culture is so deeply tied to Christianity, and want to fight to build a new Assyria. They most of all despise pacifism and have tried to revive stone-cold-dead elements of Assyrian culture.

...

I actually have some close relatives in the Assyrian faction, and they can be pretty obnoxious about it. Some of them even have tattos or pictures of Assyrian gods in their homes. I think it's pretty disgusting that they idolize such a violent culture to that extent, because it kind of reminds me of how neo-nazis often use imagery of Norse gods in a similar way. While I'm ashamed to say that some of my ancestors may have been Assyrians, they want to be just like them (less violent of course, they're not completely insane). That's politics I guess...

So there you have it. We're basically the same people, with the same language, culture and religion, but divided by political and historical revisionism. That's what happens when you have thousands of years of recorded history I guess, things get confusing.

So, I guess I misremembered what he said a bit.

Fuschia tude fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jun 4, 2021

# ? Jun 4, 2021 17:06

Kemper Boyd: Aug 6, 2007; no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

Anyone got any book tips about the history of the Orthodox church, specifically about them in the ERE?

And yes it's for elfgames.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 17:59

sebzilla: Mar 17, 2009; Kid's blasting everything in sight with that new-fangled musket.

Kemper Boyd posted:

Anyone got any book tips about the history of the Orthodox church, specifically about them in the ERE?

And yes it's for elfgames.

It's a Peep Show reference but check out John Julius Norwich

# ? Jun 4, 2021 18:26

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

Fuschia tude posted:

Snip and also

Interesting to see that neo pagan dorkiness is a world wide phenomenon.
That was very interesting thank you for posting that.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 18:29

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Fuschia tude posted:

Yeah kinda. It was on basically a podcast video discussing the plot of a game at the end of an LP series, so all in the context of and in comparison to fictional wars and empires. He was talking about survivor's guilt and how he probably won't get married.

Wow, drat. Thanks for posting, that's pretty intense.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 18:32

Kemper Boyd: Aug 6, 2007; no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

sebzilla posted:

It's a Peep Show reference but check out John Julius Norwich

Considering I read Europe's Tragedy for fun i should probably get his trilogy then.

# ? Jun 4, 2021 18:42

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Kemper Boyd posted:

Anyone got any book tips about the history of the Orthodox church, specifically about them in the ERE?

And yes it's for elfgames.

I might be able to track some down. I know you're already pretty specific, but can you be moreso? Are you interested in the church as an institution, or the history of theology? Also do you have a period of interest? Because you're basically asking for 1k years of history. The Byzantine Commonwealth is a classic and a good place to start, regardless.

edit: Norwich is... ok.

# ? Jun 12, 2021 23:27

Beefeater1980: Sep 12, 2008; My God, it's full of Horatios!

JJN is extremely readable and gives you the kind of narrative overview of Byzantium that makes a good grounding, which involves taking a lot of questionable sources largely at face value. Then if you want to have more detail later you can dive in deeper.

# ? Jun 14, 2021 00:39

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

# ? Jun 14, 2021 06:42

Baron Porkface: Jan 22, 2007

In light, white is all colors combined. In pigments, black is all colors combined.

Why is yellow the second metal of tincture rather than black?

# ? Jun 14, 2021 08:53

chippocrates: Feb 20, 2013

Baron Porkface posted:

In light, white is all colors combined. In pigments, black is all colors combined.

Why is yellow the second metal of tincture rather than black?

White is argent - silver.
Yellow is or - gold.

Don't think there's more to it than that. Colour naming conventions are not consistent across time and culture - think the ancient greek bronze skies.

Medieval heralds wouldn't have known about prisms and the splitting of white light into the visible spectrum

# ? Jun 14, 2021 16:34

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

I've got a question about roman urban life: how partisan were different neighbourhoods/tribes/whatever among the proles? Was it "This insula is for Caesar, those guys one neighbourhood over support the traitor Pompey" or was it more randomly just based on who your family's patrons were?

# ? Jun 14, 2021 16:41

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

chippocrates posted:

White is argent - silver.
Yellow is or - gold.

Don't think there's more to it than that. Colour naming conventions are not consistent across time and culture - think the ancient greek bronze skies.

Medieval heralds wouldn't have known about prisms and the splitting of white light into the visible spectrum

The actual reason is contrast. The original point of the rule of tincture was probably to avoid putting light colors with light colors next to light colors or dark colors next to dark colors, because that would make it too hard to "read" a shield from across a battlefield. At least, that's how the Society for Creative Anachronism interprets it. As heraldry developed, the rule of tincture seems to have been elaborated into an arbitrary rule that could be circumvented with linguistic loopholes (e.g., Satan's coat of arms is technically OK if you convey that the frogs are green by calling them "proper" instead of "Vert").

# ? Jun 14, 2021 16:51

Brawnfire: Jul 13, 2004; 🎧Listen to Cylindricule!🎵
https://linktr.ee/Cylindricule

Speaking of heraldry, is there a decent site or app for tossing together coat of arms? I tried one but they didn't have a label with three points which, as the first son, I quite require

# ? Jun 14, 2021 17:05

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Brawnfire posted:

Speaking of heraldry, is there a decent site or app for tossing together coat of arms? I tried one but they didn't have a label with three points which, as the first son, I quite require

https://drawshield.net/ is the main one, I think.

# ? Jun 14, 2021 17:10

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

I've got a question about roman urban life: how partisan were different neighbourhoods/tribes/whatever among the proles? Was it "This insula is for Caesar, those guys one neighbourhood over support the traitor Pompey" or was it more randomly just based on who your family's patrons were?

I have never heard of geographic division like this, I'm not sure we have that kind of detail. The tribes were not geographical, at least not by the time we're talking about. They were just organizing categories. I would guess that there was some neighborhood divide though. Like today, there were economic differences between different parts of any city, and people in different economic circumstances supported different politicians. But I'm just doing a logical guess, I don't know of any data about it.

# ? Jun 14, 2021 17:30

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

I've got a question about roman urban life: how partisan were different neighbourhoods/tribes/whatever among the proles? Was it "This insula is for Caesar, those guys one neighbourhood over support the traitor Pompey" or was it more randomly just based on who your family's patrons were?

In the Pompeii book i just read by Mary Beard, there def was neighborhood political consciousness, civic association consciousness, and also voting tribe consciousness based on the Political posters on the walls.

# ? Jun 14, 2021 17:52

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

euphronius posted:

In the Pompeii book i just read by Mary Beard, there def was neighborhood political consciousness, civic association consciousness, and also voting tribe consciousness based on the Political posters on the walls.

Oh neat, I need to read this. Pompeii is the only place I can think of where that data could be gathered.

# ? Jun 14, 2021 18:10

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Grand Fromage posted:

Oh neat, I need to read this. Pompeii is the only place I can think of where that data could be gathered.

https://www.amazon.com/Pompeii-Life-Roman-Mary-Beard/dp/1846684714

This one. its amazing.

# ? Jun 14, 2021 18:16

Kemper Boyd: Aug 6, 2007; no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

I might be able to track some down. I know you're already pretty specific, but can you be moreso? Are you interested in the church as an institution, or the history of theology? Also do you have a period of interest? Because you're basically asking for 1k years of history. The Byzantine Commonwealth is a classic and a good place to start, regardless.

edit: Norwich is... ok.

Mostly interested in the Church as an institution, and i'd be mostly looking at something from the 800-1100s, roughly.

# ? Jun 14, 2021 18:34

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

One good part of the Mary Beard book is the debate over the number of brothels in Pompeii. The ranges are from one to 34.
edit

Actually 0 is the low range.

euphronius fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jun 14, 2021

# ? Jun 14, 2021 18:37

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

chippocrates posted:

.

Don't think there's more to it than that. Colour naming conventions are not consistent across time and culture - think the ancient greek bronze skies.

I'm unconvinced about arguments that take a traditionally blind poet as literal to start with, but i gotta also point out that you can easily get a very skylike patina on bronze.

# ? Jun 14, 2021 18:59

eke out: Feb 24, 2013

Tunicate posted:

I'm unconvinced about arguments that take a traditionally blind poet as literal to start with, but i gotta also point out that you can easily get a very skylike patina on bronze.

yeah in like homeric contexts there's also the rhythmic side of things, where sometimes the sea is 'wine-dark' or athena is grey-eyed to help get the rhythmic scheme you need for each line

there was a cool episode of the Thin End of the Wedge podcast about color in the bronze age near-east and some other cultures' peculiarities in describing it with the author of this book. she talks about akkadian prioritizing texture/glossiness and animate/inanimate status in describing the color of things, if i remember right, for instance

# ? Jun 14, 2021 19:16

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Bronze shines, that�s why the sky is like bronze to archaic poets. It has nothing to do with the precise hue of the sky and everything to do with the (apparent) luminosity. decent essay about what the poetic image of bronze meant to archaic people

# ? Jun 14, 2021 19:19

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

I always thought it was so weird when people would obsess about poo poo like wine-dark sea and make elaborate theories that the Greeks literally saw colors differently instead of just... it's literature and they wrote something non-literal to evoke an image. Like, you know. All literature everywhere, ever.

# ? Jun 14, 2021 19:26

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Grand Fromage posted:

I always thought it was so weird when people would obsess about poo poo like wine-dark sea and make elaborate theories that the Greeks literally saw colors differently instead of just... it's literature and they wrote something non-literal to evoke an image. Like, you know. All literature everywhere, ever.

It's a bit like saying something goes to 11. Today, everyone gets that's a reference to Spinal Tap. Somebody reading it 1000 years from now is going to be all wtf because it makes no sense to them.

It's a reference within their culture to describe a particular image that they all got and understood, but we're all dweebs who don't get the joke.

# ? Jun 14, 2021 19:29

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# ? May 10, 2024 06:08

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

The sole surviving relic of 1900s art in color: a single copy of jojo's bizarre adventure.

Clearly those ancients did not see color as we do!

# ? Jun 14, 2021 19:41

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