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I don't know if Barb can apply enough hydro but I could be wrong. And I'd probably use Fischl over traveler as well since you're trying to battery Beidou. Electro traveler seems to be more of a universal battery who will be worse than type specific characters like Fischl. You also have to be on the character you want energy for with his ult up and Beidou is off field in this group comp.
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Jun 14, 2021 21:33
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Serpent spine is good, but with a few refinements is when it really starts outperforming 5* weapons. The damage buffs only really hurt when you're at 5 stacks and get hit by a mitachurl shield rush or water boar rush, since the buff only degrades one stack but it's a lot of damage being amped a fair bit.
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Jun 14, 2021 21:33
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ayaka doesn't have to be interesting, she has to be good
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Jun 14, 2021 21:34
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Clarste posted:I feel like Ayaka has a boring kit precisely because she was designed so early, before they started experimenting with weird stuff. She's a very "vanilla" cryo character in the same way Dulic is a vanilla pyro character. Even if she has the numbers to back it up, it's hard to see it being exciting if she has the same kit as she did way back then. The latest leaked stuff I've seen has said she's gotten massive buffs and should end up as a very strong carry. I missed Ganyu and wasn't interested in Eula, so I'm looking forward to another potential cryo carry.
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Jun 14, 2021 21:40
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What exactly is the interesting dps to make Ayaka boring, using her dash to apply perma cryo freeze seems as or more involved than most anyone else.
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Jun 14, 2021 21:42
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Tanreall posted:I don't know if Barb can apply enough hydro but I could be wrong. And I'd probably use Fischl over traveler as well since you're trying to battery Beidou. Electro traveler seems to be more of a universal battery who will be worse than type specific characters like Fischl. You also have to be on the character you want energy for with his ult up and Beidou is off field in this group comp. If E-Traveler's particle generation is anything like the other elements, they should be able to passively charge up Beidou without specifically having her eat up the skill/burst energy. Resonance can help with the rest, and hopefully that gets a buff. I'm semi-joking about Barb, but her charge attack is actually very strong. The multipliers are higher than Yanfei with full seals, and Hydro is the stronger activator of vaporize. If Electro stuff is on cooldown, she can contribute some decent DPS by procing vapes.
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Jun 14, 2021 21:58
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Clarste posted:I feel like Ayaka has a boring kit precisely because she was designed so early, before they started experimenting with weird stuff. She's a very "vanilla" cryo character in the same way Dulic is a vanilla pyro character. Even if she has the numbers to back it up, it's hard to see it being exciting if she has the same kit as she did way back then. She's been in testing so long I'd be shocked if she stayed how she was way back before launch.
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Jun 14, 2021 22:09
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most of the main 4 elements have pretty boring characters, childe and beidou are my personal favorites of them. geo and anemo have the most potential to do fun stuff. honkai really spoiled me, pretty much every character was so fun to play in that game and was one of my favorite things about it.
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Jun 14, 2021 22:10
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gandlethorpe posted:If E-Traveler's particle generation is anything like the other elements, they should be able to passively charge up Beidou without specifically having her eat up the skill/burst energy. Resonance can help with the rest, and hopefully that gets a buff. Barbara DPS works if you want it to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6VovhiuQCo It's just that her skill/burst have no actual synergy with her attacking. Also note that in this video the guy has way too much crit damage for his crit rate and is showcasing lucky rolls on Widsith buff + lucky crits, and food + ally buffs. I'm guessing you could get like 20k no-reaction charged attacks at his gear levels with more balanced crit/crit damage and Skyward Atlas, which is fine but not comparable to a real DPS at the same investment level.
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Jun 14, 2021 22:11
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I wasnt following this thread (or any online discussion about the game at all) when he was released, and I'm curious; What was the Zhongli discussion/discourse/controversy you are all referencing?
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Jun 14, 2021 22:17
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He wasnt that good and people freaked out (especially in China) to a degree I havent seen in years. For a month you couldnt read or watch anything related to Genshin online without reading endless emotional essays about Zhong Li. Streamers and youtubers mostly said he was fine which added fuel to the fire. Hard to explain how much it consumed everything online related to genshin for a month and a half.
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Jun 14, 2021 22:26
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SiKboy posted:I wasnt following this thread (or any online discussion about the game at all) when he was released, and I'm curious; What was the Zhongli discussion/discourse/controversy you are all referencing? Long story short, people freaked out that he wasn't the OP gigachad carry they built up in their imagination that he should be. Reactions ranged from conspiracy theories about his original design to nationalist pride harmed to miHoYo being accused of false advertising. In reality he just had a slightly awkward to use/minimal damage skill and was designed around a heretofore underappreciated mechanic (shields). He was eventually buffed to have better QoL on his skill with slightly more damage and resistance shredding. At the same time, Geo and shields got buffed for everyone. The things he's mainly useful for now were still good back then (strong shield and big gently caress-off burst). His shield got buffed to be equally effective versus everything, but it was always capable of being pumped up to where you could tank everything on cooldown. Not that he didn't feel somewhat unfinished back then (as well as Geo blowing as an element), but the hysteria was embarrassing.
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Jun 14, 2021 22:33
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it was pretty funny seeing the shiny new 5* star be on the bottom of community tier lists, and i just figured it was because shields sucked rear end
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Jun 14, 2021 22:38
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SiKboy posted:I wasnt following this thread (or any online discussion about the game at all) when he was released, and I'm curious; What was the Zhongli discussion/discourse/controversy you are all referencing? Chinese people were very mad about Zhongli being terrible. He was legitimately kind of terrible for a 5* but there wasn't really more to it than that. He was released bad and then people got extremely mad online and he got buffed an insane amount. And to be fair the kind of terrible thing is largely due to a lot of his kit making no sense. Like here are the criticisms that are not really fair: - His pillar actively harms you because you get stuck on it and try to climb it accidentally. - His physical DPS is mediocre and you don't really get to scale both the phys and geo side together well. - If you want to do DPS with him you have to launch enemies to deal fall damage with the pillar summoning which is extremely awkward and inconsistent. - He was nerfed from beta (in particular his burst lasted longer and increased damage taken on petrified enemies) The fair criticisms that actually made him pretty bad/incoherent: - His hold E seems was a major part of his utility, but it didn't make a pillar which means you get very little energy from it. - Building HP to make his shield useful did little for anything else he did, which means he's essentially only there to put up a shield. - Hold E's shield absorbing geo damage more effectively is really stupid because nothing in the game really does geo damage. - Pillar generating energy is random and inconsistent. A lot of this boils down to "his tap E and hold E are completely unrelated skills that want you to build different stats and share the same cooldown." This is how they ended up fixing him: - His hold E also makes a pillar. Extremely needed change to make his kit more logical, honestly there is very little need for tap E to even exist. - His HP now also scales his normal attack and E. This honestly doesn't really matter as you still don't want to build HP if you're trying to make him do damage and pure HP build still doesn't do significant damage, but it does give a much more sensical railroading for players of "this is how you should build him" which is just better design really. - Geo shields now protect against all elements at above 100% value. This makes sense for geo shields as it's sort of an element outside of the normal elemental loops, but it's also kind of dumb designwise because now none of the numbers on the shields match how much damage they actually absorb. - His shield now reduces nearby enemy resistance to all elements including physical while active. Very unnecessary buff that puts him over the top into broken territory.
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Jun 14, 2021 22:44
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Radical posted:most of the main 4 elements have pretty boring characters, childe and beidou are my personal favorites of them. geo and anemo have the most potential to do fun stuff. Honkai did not start out with the absolute insanity that is Herrscher of Reason, gotta ramp into that kind of silliness.
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Jun 14, 2021 22:50
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the other thing that buffed him (to some extent) is that they began putting out content that is basically "if you have a large shield, none of these mechanics matter lol" azhdaha in particular is extremely simple if you have zhongli and can be very frustrating if you don't, which further increases how powerful he feels
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Jun 14, 2021 22:50
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Cheers for the explanations! I managed to miss all that.
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Jun 14, 2021 22:52
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From my perspective he was a great support from the start. His burst did a beautiful chunk of damage and charged quickly, and I liked his shield back then too. I used him every day since I pulled him. The buff was a giant dollup of gravy on top. They did need to address geo a bit, so I am glad they did.
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Jun 14, 2021 22:59
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Ultima66 posted:- His pillar actively harms you because you get stuck on it and try to climb it accidentally. Hey this happens all the time and its actually really annoying 
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Jun 14, 2021 22:59
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Tsyni posted:From my perspective he was a great support from the start. His burst did a beautiful chunk of damage and charged quickly, and I liked his shield back then too. I used him every day since I pulled him. The buff was a giant dollup of gravy on top. They did need to address geo a bit, so I am glad they did.  and not because I pulled 3 of him before any Chongyun constellations from his banner and wanted to justify my choices
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Jun 14, 2021 23:04
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Part of me wonders if Zhongli is so broken they’re just not even going to run him on a banner again, at least not for a long time. Either that or they wait for the right number of new players who don’t have him to join since last time and run a Zhongli banner to print money.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:08
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Trying to aim the pillar to activate pressure plates is beyond stupid. Even when I get the pillar on the plate, if it's off center it sometimes won't activate
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Jun 14, 2021 23:08
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Harrow posted:Part of me wonders if Zhongli is so broken they’re just not even going to run him on a banner again, at least not for a long time. Either that or they wait for the right number of new players who don’t have him to join since last time and run a Zhongli banner to print money. He just had a rerun recently, maybe wait a few months before pondering if he'll ever exist.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:10
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Harrow posted:Part of me wonders if Zhongli is so broken they’re just not even going to run him on a banner again, at least not for a long time. Either that or they wait for the right number of new players who don’t have him to join since last time and run a Zhongli banner to print money.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:11
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Space Opera posted:Trying to aim the pillar to activate pressure plates is beyond stupid. Even when I get the pillar on the plate, if it's off center it sometimes won't activate Yeah this is a side effect of the fact that it was designed as two separate skills from the beginning. It really should work like every other Geo construct skill and you should just get the shield from it in addition to dropping the construct, which you position by holding. Like sure if they made it so that the cooldown is always the longer cooldown it would make his constellation that lets you have 2 pillars out a lot less useful but obviously if you were designing it that way from the ground up that constellation would probably just be something different in the first place.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:11
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Klee re-run also made like a billion yen already, outselling most other banners. Popular characters sell, even older ones and mihoyo doesn't have to make a new character for another 46 days. Literally win-win for them.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:12
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I can see a Zhongli-level backlash happening if the first waifu Archon isn't hot enough
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Jun 14, 2021 23:15
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The reason for the disappointment is that the story builds him up as some ultra powerful god of war who slayed the ancient ones, then when he came out he was a support character who gives you a shield. The other reason is that he came out at a point where most people were still trying to build a main DPS and didn't have the luxury to invest into a support character. If he came out today people probably wouldn't mind his kit as much, although the pillar/shield thing would still be awkward.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:21
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Boba Pearl posted:What is the actual gameplay of this? Is it like BotW? What do you do in game? I tried watching something on youtube, but it seemed the beginning was mostly cutscenes, which is cool, but what does "end game" look like, or is it a set amount of content then you're done? Or like... What do you do? "End game" is just your daily activities to make number go up, with a smattering of testing your big number against the big numbers in the challenge dungeon and occasional challenging calendar events. This is one of those games that expects you to play it a little every day, since the primary driver of content unlocks - adventurer rank - is primarily bumped by the things that refresh every day. This game will let you spend tremendous amounts of money on it, most of which is very inefficient compared to the two things you can buy that give you daily rewards - the most efficient, the "blessing of the welkin moon", drops you a trickle of wish currency in addition to giving you about the same amount of cash currency that you'd get for the cost of the battle pas, but if you log in every day to collect you'll wind up with quite a lot. The next most efficient, the "gnostic hymn", is the middle tier of the battle pass, which is incremented through things you do every day. It basically triples most of the rewards you already get from the pass, and gives you a nice weapon about halfway through it. The battle pass is pretty forgiving - it runs in six-week increments and you can ghost it for a little under two weeks and still max it out, though that's a bit dependent on what event challenges they have running. So what do you do every day? ("Every day" means daily reset - the battle pass or daily-resetting shops like Wagner's will tell you how long you have for that. If you're in the US it currently hits at 5 Eastern time.) One main thing is adventurer's guild quests. There are four small daily quests and a reward for competing them all. Usually this will be three pure fights, usually against hilichurls but sometimes against other things, and one commission drawn from a pool of town requests, which have a little more going on. Some of them even make small but permanent changes to the town, which is neat in concept but can be a little frustrating because there's no way to land on what you want to do. Doing the adventurer's guild quests will give you a small amount of wish currency. Another main thing is spending mobile game energy. Yeah, that's a thing. It's called "original resin". You get one point every 8 minutes, so 15 points every 2 hours, or 180 a day. You can hold up to 160, so most but not all of it, and something you'll unlock later will let you bottle up to 5 shots of 40 each to save for later use. You can pay wish currency for some - this is one of those inefficient ways the game lets you spend money - and there are also rare consumable items, "fragile resin" that will give you some. In general, those are worth holding onto until your adventurer rank goes up and improves the rewards from the things you can spend it on, most of which are challenges to get stuff to improve your character. Resin is the only gate on those, aside from the challenge gameplay and a short refresh timer for the lesser world bosses. What the battle pass wants you to do every day is log in, do the adventurer's guild quests, spend most of a day's resin, and go out in the world and collect ten ores from mining. Once you unlock dispatch missions at the adventurer's guild that last one's not even a thing, you'll almost certainly want to dispatch people to collect ores. Dispatches last 20 hours at maximum, so you can usually just dispatch at the end of a day's play and collect it the next day. Dispatches used to tie up the people you sent out, but now they don't, which is odd storywise, but much less hassle. Doing those two doesn't take a lot of time, so you can get them out of the way and hunt treasure in the wilderness or progress the story or do side quests. But there's more to do every day if you want. Every day you can mine and collect natural resources. Most of the flowers and fruits you pick respawn after 24 hours, though some are considered "regional specialties" and used in character development; those respawn after 48 hours. This doesn't mean "two days" as in two rollovers, this is actual time passing. Regular ore outcrops respawn after 24 hours, white ore after 48, crystal ore after 72. For a more focused daily collection, there is some ore that respawns on rollover, but I'll talk more about it in the weekly section later down. (I think there's also a small timer after you collected the last crop of it; I've seen some weirdness after an early morning session now and again.) Also on a 24-hour timer are the investigate points in the world. In Mondstadt they mostly yield fresh produce, but once you make it over to Liyue you'll also see points that yield elemental charge, ore, and crap-tier artifacts. But hey, pile up enough crap and you get a mountain. If an event's running, it's also something that will tend to progress daily. Every day I log in, do the adventurer's guild stuff, and pick how I'm going to spend my resin. If there's an event on I go after the daily progress there. If I have time I go mining; if I have more time I pick up artifacts. My world is largely explored from a story, side quest, and treasure perspective, though I still have some character-specific hangout stuff yet to do. There's also stuff that refreshes on a weekly timer, most notably the major world bosses, who are all refights of significant encounters during the story quest and character quests. They drop materials for advanced character development and have a chance of dropping a weapon blank you can forge into a pretty good 4* weapon. Town reputation also has a weekly reset involved with it; once you unlock it you'll get a starting value from the exploration, story quests, and world quests you've done, and then weekly you can do 3 requests and 3 bounties for a town. Requests are just delivering some stuff to somebody, bounties are slightly more involved overworld tracking down clues, with a pretty challenging fight at the end. One of the earliest rewards with town reputation is that ore thing I mentioned before; every day, a town blacksmith will tell you about the magical ore clusters that spawned in the world, with 2-3 crystal ore and 2-3 magical ore, which needs resin to refine. Refining magic ore isn't worth it, but you do get pointed to crystal ore on a much faster cooldown. (More ore clusters will spawn daily than the town blacksmith points you to, usually in out of the way map locations like Stormterror's Lair and the Guyun Stone Forest.) Shortly after the ore thing it's worth getting to Liyue level 3, that's what lets you save up 200 resin to use later. What the battle pass wants you to do weekly is all the weekly activities, in addition to distributing resin among its many uses, and some other stuff like cooking and forging. Usually I try to spread them out during the week so I don't feel like I have a big to-do list on any one day. And then, after a while, you also get Animal Crossing. 
Glazius fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 23:37
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Oh that actually sounds rad, and I'm one of those weirdos who will play a game until they burn out, so a "Ok you're done my friend" meter might not be that awful? How long does it take to run out the meter? Does doing the story run it out? I was gonna do trials and stuff? How is this on phone by the way, I just downloaded it, and thought it might be neat. e: When does the Battlepass roll over by the way?
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Jun 14, 2021 23:47
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Another little thing to add about Zhongli is that he was immediately followed by Albedo. People were pretty dismissive of him as well right at the start because the narrative was "Geo is Bad Who Cares". Which is funny because Albedo is drat good. But it's still pretty telling that his banner performed pretty terribly compared to everyone else except maybe Keqing.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:49
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Boba Pearl posted:Oh that actually sounds rad, and I'm one of those weirdos who will play a game until they burn out, so a "Ok you're done my friend" meter might not be that awful? How long does it take to run out the meter? Does doing the story run it out? I was gonna do trials and stuff? Story doesn't use resin at all. It's basically just domains (which you do for weapon, character, and talent upgrade materials) and world bosses that use resin, as well as ley line blossoms (little world event battles that give you EXP materials or money). The story and seasonal events like the island event happening now don't use it. A new battle pass just started and I think they normally last six weeks or so?
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Jun 14, 2021 23:50
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Battle Passes coincide with major versions (6 week cycles). They end a couple days before the next update, but can easily be completed with weeks to spare.YoshiOfYellow posted:Another little thing to add about Zhongli is that he was immediately followed by Albedo. People were pretty dismissive of him as well right at the start because the narrative was "Geo is Bad Who Cares". Well, there's also the fact that he was sandwiched between Zhongli and Ganyu. I think he'd perform pretty well on a rerun, provided he wasn't again sandwiched between highly anticipated characters.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:53
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YoshiOfYellow posted:Another little thing to add about Zhongli is that he was immediately followed by Albedo. People were pretty dismissive of him as well right at the start because the narrative was "Geo is Bad Who Cares". Albedo is very good but also has a similar issue with original Zhongli of clashing kit. His skill scales purely off of his Def while his Burst scales purely off of his Atk until you get C2. It's not clear what you should be building for just looking at his kit.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:54
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gandlethorpe posted:I can see a Zhongli-level backlash happening if the first waifu Archon isn't hot enough I mean, if you take all the current bitching over "Shogun" into account, it's already started?
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Jun 14, 2021 23:57
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Bloody Emissary posted:Locations of characters in the archipelago after the Act III quest is over: thank you for this
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Jun 15, 2021 00:03
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The problem with Albedo and Zhongli to a lesser extent is their geo damage can mess up reactions.
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Jun 15, 2021 00:09
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Barbara's comment about Ludi Harpastum being sometime in the future got me thinking...could we get Noelle and Diluc skins based on the KFC tie in then? 
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Jun 15, 2021 00:19
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Harrow posted:Part of me wonders if Zhongli is so broken they’re just not even going to run him on a banner again, at least not for a long time. Either that or they wait for the right number of new players who don’t have him to join since last time and run a Zhongli banner to print money. I assume, at some point, that how they do banners will need to change. Maybe dual banners, maybe multiple staggered banners - no idea. Having a potential few months of non-reruns really dicks with stuff for me because I need to always have double pity banked for Ganyu. :/ CJ posted:The other reason is that he came out at a point where most people were still trying to build a main DPS and didn't have the luxury to invest into a support character. If he came out today people probably wouldn't mind his kit as much, although the pillar/shield thing would still be awkward. Yeah there's a lot of context that gets lost to history on this. We didn't have carries that killed themselves or needed uninterrupted damage windows yet. Abyss was entirely different. Geo shields were way worse and so was geo resonance. The only 5* support we had to compare him to was Venti.
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Jun 15, 2021 00:37
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I think the easiest thing I see happening is starting a 4th banner slot that is dedicated to reruns & standard 5* focuses. Although this does inevitably create some nightmare scenarios where you have to choose between the new overpowered Dendro Archon or Zhongli or something.
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Jun 15, 2021 00:41
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