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Have to ensure the vassal states states stay dependent and pay their tribute to the MIC.
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Jun 13, 2021 21:01
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Orange Devil posted:A form of European cooperation could be democratic and good. We could call that the EU. So the EU could be less bad. I see achieving a less bad EU as at least equally difficult as achieving a less bad nation state. Not least because a less bad nation state will have to resist the US and other European states alone. To be clear, I see both as immensely difficult to achieve given the fascism infected European political landscape. right, if the EU were not the actual EU it could be made better i'm not arguing against some hypothetical super-national community of european nations. i'm arguing pretty specifically against the actually existing EU
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Jun 13, 2021 23:16
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V. Illych L. posted:right, if the EU were not the actual EU it could be made better
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Jun 14, 2021 06:44
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You guys remember Pieter Omtzigt, the Dutch MP? He has exited the CDA party after a scathing report of his on the CDA was leaked to the press, still going to be in the cabinet on his own (as he rightly should since he got tons of votes). But forming a ruling coalition after the election results was already very difficult and now with the CDA a seat down and reeling from this it's going to get even harder. I've already heard jokes going around that we should get Belgium to help us out.
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Jun 14, 2021 08:49
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The same logic applies to our nation states. Either both can be improved, or neither. what? no most nation states have proceduralist constitutions and are an extremly mixed bag where both genuinely democratic governance and kleptocracy happens. the EU is an entirely different beast which marries a constitutional commitment to neoliberal governance in the Commission (constitutional in the sense that you'd need a fundamental change to get out of it, to the tune of majorities in both parliament and council over many years) to a decision-making progress which empowers governmental leaders at the cost of their peoples. this is not a thing inherent to a supernational union of nations; it is a thing inherent to the actual EU. the size and distance of the endeavour are also issues, but they exacerbate the fundamental problems of the EU, they aren't the cause of them. the most egregious part of this all is that there's no realistic path to democratic reform of the Union; national elections are staggered so that even if you had a huge left-wing wave those parties wouldn't actually be able to accomplish very much and would almost certainly lose before gaining the sort of majority in the Council that would allow them to push through reforms (in practice the Council is generally run by consent, though a couple of dissenters might be allowed) - and this is assuming that nobody's gotten bamboozled by the prospects of a consulting career or think-tank position after they're done with politics and so start aligning with the EU-as-is, which they have every incentive to do (it benefits them a great deal personally, reform would disempower their own position, nobody would know for sure who's to blame). this is not even getting into the sort of procedural resistance you'd see from the Commission.
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Jun 14, 2021 09:15
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Griefor posted:You guys remember Pieter Omtzigt, the Dutch MP? Parliament, not cabinet. And this remains to be seen as he's currently home sick due to work pressure, and the previous parliament specifically did some things to make sure 1-man split fractions would have less support and much higher work pressure as an incentive for parliamentarians to not split from their parties.
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Jun 14, 2021 10:59
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V. Illych L. posted:what? no
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Jun 14, 2021 11:44
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Did the EU force Switzerland to vote down climate measures that were supposed to keep them on track with the Paris goals? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57457384 A lot of the criticism of the EU is well justified (and a big chunk is bullshit too) but I don't think it's the biggest obstacle to automated gay communism either. Most EU countries have established leftist and straight up communist parties and they generally win gently caress all. It seems like expecting the EU to be some sorto of leftist paradise while the parties barely get single digit votes is at best unrealistic. Then of course there are also all the non-EU countries that somehow aren't communist paradise either.
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Jun 14, 2021 12:27
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mobby_6kl posted:Did the EU force Switzerland to vote down climate measures that were supposed to keep them on track with the Paris goals? a majority of the Swiss seem obsessed with their self-image as a rural, farmer-friendly nation. climate change / environmental regulation is billed as anti-farmer by lobbyists, which seems to be an extremely effective strategy. There's also a the incredibly broad "anti-terrorism" ballot measure that was approved yesterday, which will be easily used against activist/progressive groups
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Jun 14, 2021 21:07
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You're not arguing that it is impossible, merely that it is harder. And it's not like nation states don't also have official and non-official means of crippling challenges to the status quo. I'd also argue that a socialist wave across most of Europe would be required in either scenario, because otherwise every neighboring state will immediately start undermining the nascent democracy. no i'm arguing that given what the EU is, it's impossible to make it something else without reform that amounts to a revolution. which, fair play, if you can make that happen i'm all for it, but imo it's more realistic to see the Union simply disintegrate under the weight of its own dysfunctions. the point about a hypothetical red wave is that under present EU orthodoxy left-wing solutions to common problems aren't actually politically viable because the sort of tools you depend on - price controls, subsidies, tariffs, labour and product regulation, taxation/confiscation etc. - are either severely impeded by freedom of movement or outright banned (state aid etc) under competition rules. so even if a left-wing party is in power (as happened with SYRIZA) they find their room to maneuver very sharply limited. this makes it very difficult to sustain any sort of wave, because people will rightly be puzzled as to why all the nice things they were promised fail to materialise. do note that this would have to be a wave of radical socialist parties, i.e. not a revivication of the cadavers of european social democracy. e. the point being, the EU is manifestly and actively anti-left and it's bizarre to me that (some) left-wingers see being in favour of the EU as a natural left-wing position to have
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Jun 14, 2021 22:32
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V. Illych L. posted:e. the point being, the EU is manifestly and actively anti-left and it's bizarre to me that (some) left-wingers see being in favour of the EU as a natural left-wing position to have Have you ever heard what the far right says about the EU? I am trying to imply that all pro EU leftists are taking the opposite position to the fascists and then neglecting to examine the resulting position.
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Jun 15, 2021 00:41
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V. Illych L. posted:no i'm arguing that given what the EU is, it's impossible to make it something else without reform that amounts to a revolution... V. Illych L. posted:the point about a hypothetical red wave is that under present EU orthodoxy left-wing solutions to common problems aren't actually politically viable because the sort of tools you depend on - price controls, subsidies, tariffs, labour and product regulation, taxation/confiscation etc. - are either severely impeded by freedom of movement or outright banned (state aid etc) under competition rules. so even if a left-wing party is in power (as happened with SYRIZA) they find their room to maneuver very sharply limited. Thinking about it, Germany's size and position basically makes it necessary and close to sufficient for turning Europe/the EU around. As an agent of reaction it will kill reforms, as an agent of reform it can just tell reactionaries to take a hike and make sweetheart deals with like-minded countries. And seeing as it's the closest to an imperial center the EU/Europe has, by the time Germany flips a lot of the EU will probably be ready to flip with it.
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Jun 15, 2021 05:39
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A Buttery Pastry posted:a revolutionary Germany There is hopelessly optimistic, and then there's whatever this is. Germany is so staunchly conservative it hurts plus notoriously bureaucratic, and the entire former East Germany is hurtling rapidly towards putting AfD in power. There are pockets of hardcore lefties in the major cities like Hamburg and Berlin, but that's about it. Bavaria will secede long before the majority of Germans become even nominally left-wing.
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Jun 15, 2021 06:53
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if you need actual revolutions in major, central countries which means that the EU can be ignored to make the EU not inimical to leftism, i put it to you that this is functionally indistinguishable from the EU being inherently inimical to leftism i'm perfectly willing to grant this sort of edge case so long as my central point is accepted, which is that the EU as it exists today is a deeply anti-left institution in its practical effect
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Jun 15, 2021 07:14
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Living in Germany and following politics and the mindset, it is utterly impossible that any revolution or radical change comes from here, even if alone by the average age of the population over here (revolutions are not made by olds). Half or more of the electorate votes consistently center-right or right, for decades.
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Jun 15, 2021 07:20
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I think most will agree that EU as it is is vehemently against revolutionary leftism. There's absolutely no way that EU would support toppling the powers that be. But the same is true for nation states. Things become iffier with regards of "ordinary" leftism that happens within the framework of liberal capitalism. It is true that EU is first and foremost a liberal institution with things like free movement of capital baked into its essence. But within this framework you can and should enact leftist policies like, say, tobin tax, big investmentd into fiscal policy, worker's rights etc. Make the Union social democratic. I think this is what people mean when they talk about reforming the union more leftist. It is not revolutionary leftism. But it is a leftist position. Unless you are of the mind that there is only one kind of leftism.
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Jun 15, 2021 07:50
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VictualSquid posted:Have you ever heard what the far right says about the EU?  At least they both agree on Muslims now 
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Jun 15, 2021 08:39
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Guavanaut posted:Which far right? Mélenchon was never that left. Also: https://twitter.com/asatarbair/status/1399175226903072768?s=21
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Jun 15, 2021 08:50
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I'm not making any point about Mélenchon, I'm pointing out that both Le Pen and Macron are far right nutjobs, but entirely different types of far right nutjob. No idea who that dude is, but he thinks the political compass is the same thing as the Nolan Chart, so lol.
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Jun 15, 2021 08:59
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political compass is trash garbage i guess it spawns a funny meme every now and then? lol at using it even remotely seriously though
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Jun 15, 2021 09:07
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Guavanaut posted:I'm not making any point about Mélenchon, I'm pointing out that both Le Pen and Macron are far right nutjobs, but entirely different types of far right nutjob. I guess you don't understand the inherent contradiction when you imply that a State can somehow not be Authoritarian. Nolan makes this mistake too how can you read Bair's thread and conclude "yes, this guy clearly agrees with libertarians about ideology" webcams for christ fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 09:10
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Nolan made a chart up to prove that American style right wing libertarianism is somehow the natural fourth position to left wing, right wing, and fascism. It's trash because it's confused on what left and right is, and trash because it exists entirely to try to force a 'natural' fourth position for That other style of political compass that everyone calls 'the political compass' exists more to show the contradictions within voting blocs, like this one for Brexit voters  It's limited (like any model is limited) because it assumes that the two genders are 'economic values' and 'cultural values', but it proves that right wing libertarianism isn't really a thing that exists in voting populations, whereas the Nolan Chart tried desperately to make it a thing. Neither is to do with states. (Where did I say "this guy clearly agrees with libertarians about ideology"? I said "he thinks the political compass is the same thing as the Nolan Chart" because he said "The political compass seems to have been created by the libertarian David Nolan" which is not true.)
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Jun 15, 2021 09:19
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Guavanaut posted:Nolan made a chart up to prove that American style right wing libertarianism is somehow the natural fourth position to left wing, right wing, and fascism. It's trash because it's confused on what left and right is, and trash because it exists entirely to try to force a 'natural' fourth position for sorry I misparsed your previous post. but the Nolan chart predates the political compass, and was likely the basis for it. The simplified version of the Nolan compass is the same thing, just with the x axis flipped.  vs  neither the political compass nor the Nolan chart are useful, again as they both are based on false premises
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Jun 15, 2021 09:30
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It's more likely that Nolan flipped an existing chart 135 degrees to put libertarian at the top, with third positionist fascism at the bottom, for obvious reasons of trying to create his Rand/Heinlein style ideology as the (good) natural opposite of (bad) Hitler rather than achieve anything useful. I agree that the FT/Economist style compasses aren't useful much beyond voting bloc analysis, because of a vastly oversimplified binary split between cultural and economic values, but that's the general point I was trying to make. FN/RN and En Marche both have completely different views on the EU to one another, and both have positions that could be called 'far right', same as Brexiteers have positions that could easily be called far right but are also usually opposed to the far right austerity program that preceded (but also created some of the material conditions necessary for) Brexit. That's why "Have you ever heard what the far right says about the EU?" doesn't work without qualification, it depends very much on which type of far right.
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Jun 15, 2021 09:45
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Guavanaut posted:That's why "Have you ever heard what the far right says about the EU?" doesn't work without qualification, it depends very much on which type of far right. this is absolutely correct. And again, I'd say these FT/Econ "analyses" are only useful for the reproduction of hegemonic ideology or memes
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Jun 15, 2021 09:52
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Glah posted:I think most will agree that EU as it is is vehemently against revolutionary leftism. There's absolutely no way that EU would support toppling the powers that be. But the same is true for nation states. Standing by for the "liberal capitalism will definitely destroy the planet, and there's a sliver of hope communism might not, so we must pursue communism" posters.
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Jun 15, 2021 11:50
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Doctor Malaver posted:Standing by for the "liberal capitalism will definitely destroy the planet, and there's a sliver of hope communism might not, so we must pursue communism" posters. sup
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Jun 15, 2021 12:09
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The only actually functional "political compass" - The Political Cube: V. Illych L. posted:if you need actual revolutions in major, central countries which means that the EU can be ignored to make the EU not inimical to leftism, i put it to you that this is functionally indistinguishable from the EU being inherently inimical to leftism *note: This does not mean defending the EU, it just means not spending the majority of your time attacking the EU as if it's the primary reason socialism doesn't reign across Europe.
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Jun 15, 2021 12:14
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webcams for christ posted:And again, I'd say these FT/Econ "analyses" are only useful for the reproduction of hegemonic ideology or memes Like you can compare the two sets made for Leave/Remain and Left Party/Right Party, because they are asking the same people the same questions and using the same definitions of 'cultural axis' and 'economic axis', which might not make sense elsewhere. (They might not even make sense to the people answering, like does someone want to put utilities back in public hands because they believe that market liberalism doesn't work for natural monopolies, or because they were in public hands and had more traditional logos when they were small? Or because you didn't used to get a ton of "would you like to change your electricity provider" spam in the past, is that an economic or cultural aversion?) But you can still compare them, and get this:  Which shows that there's an overlap right in the middle of conservativeremainlabourleave voters, so the questions asked were not enough to explain why that specific set voted the way that they did. Was it regional, or where they worked, or just the last person who they spoke to? Do we need more axes? Who knows, it is not at all useful at explaining that group's voting decisions. It does show some interesting things though, like the 'libertarian right' that Nolan was trying to prove the supreme ideology by spinning those axes around doesn't seem to exist, or they all went Galt or something. And that there's a bunch of anti-EU people in the top right who want economic redistribution and flags on everything (not EU flags). Trad law and justice types who don't vote for anyone, or maybe vote for some fringe NazBol party. Those are the types that tend to get called 'far right' in common discourse because they want to bring back hanging and put flags on everything. Also that there are a bunch of FYGM Conservatives way off to the right who want to take the brakes off of everything but don't really care about the EU either way. Those people are also far right by any meaningful definition, but the only common link seems to be that the latter will make up the wildest poo poo to rile up the former for their own benefit. Boris Johnson posted:Everything I wrote from Brussels, I found was sort of chucking these rocks over the garden wall and I listened to this amazing crash from the greenhouse next door over in England as everything I wrote from Brussels was having this amazing, explosive effect on the Tory party, and it really gave me this I suppose rather weird sense of power. Doctor Malaver posted:"liberal capitalism will definitely destroy the planet, and there's a sliver of hope communism might not, so we must pursue communism"
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Jun 15, 2021 12:29
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now THAT is a political compassA Buttery Pastry posted:
A Buttery Pastry posted:*note: This does not mean defending the EU, it just means not spending the majority of your time attacking the EU as if it's the primary reason socialism doesn't reign across Europe. agreed that really Raising Class Consciousness and combating forms of false consciousness like Racism, Xenophobia, "Middle Class" identity, etc are far more important than attacking the EU. Conversely, I don't see the utility in defending the EU Guavanaut posted:
These don't "show" anything other than the journalists' assumptions though. that chart doesn't reflect the Measurement of anything, and they necessarily conflate way too many concepts with all sorts of contradictions baked in. The Political Compass gained fame as an internet quiz for internet dorks (us included), and you won't find it anywhere near actual Scholarship or Political/Economic Theory. It's useful to journalists because it can give a veneer of supposed objectivity to their claims. It is the Myers–Briggs test for political discourse: not validated in any rigorous way, not used in research, not taken seriously by academics in the field, but very popular with the general population and people base their personalities around the results
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Jun 15, 2021 13:28
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The cube is a work of art.
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Jun 15, 2021 13:29
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Today I'm voting for the...  monarchist.
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Jun 15, 2021 14:42
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webcams for christ posted:now THAT is a political compass Lawman 0 posted:The cube is a work of art. webcams for christ posted:agreed that really Raising Class Consciousness and combating forms of false consciousness like Racism, Xenophobia, "Middle Class" identity, etc are far more important than attacking the EU. Conversely, I don't see the utility in defending the EU
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Jun 15, 2021 14:49
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webcams for christ posted:These don't "show" anything other than the journalists' assumptions though. Even if those metrics are useless for any further analysis, they're at least useful to ask things like "why is X far right but Y not according to the same people that love using these analyses that keep showing otherwise?"
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Jun 15, 2021 15:00
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Guavanaut posted:That's significant in itself, it means that it at the least shows that the people that the journalists keep calling 'far right', like third positionists, are a completely different group of people to those that are shown to be far right by their own metrics (whether they are or not). this kind of granularity is better accomplished through prose, as your own analysis demonstrates. these visualizations when used in earnest encourage reductive thinking and offer lazy labels for compmecated issues, which people get hung up on. e: this is also again setting aside the fact that "Authority" vs "Liberty" is a false premise. there are no Non-Authouritarian nations. to claim otherwise obfuscates the imperialism, colonialism, and global exploitation from Western Democracies webcams for christ fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 15:32
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It was never supposed to be applied to nations though, so it wouldn't make sense doing that. I'm sure that someone has, because I'm sure that someone on the internet has applied it to soda brands* The original source for it, predating Nolan by a good way, seems to be Hans Eysenck, who was looking for a way to track Adorno's F scale (for fascism) against left-right economics, to see whether there was a correlation with what was commonly called 'right wing authoritarianism' at the time. Eysenck was also a quack who believed that personality type correlated with cancer risk, but eh, it was the 60s. You can still see variants of that crop up as 'order vs. openness' as a scale against left-right, e.g. that support for the death penalty correlates more closely with the Brexit vote than left-right economics. That also falls apart if you try to apply it to whole nations rather than just polling individuals and looking for trends, but it seems to make a case for the order-openness debate taking over from the left-right debate in a rash of rising European third position radical (or radical styled) parties. *I can find no proof for that though, but there is this. 
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Jun 15, 2021 16:05
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Why is Kellog's authoritarian left? Isn't anti-masturbation usually an authoritarian-right position? Is  ? 
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Jun 15, 2021 16:10
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I have no idea, I only know that someone took the time to make it v v
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Jun 15, 2021 16:24
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how many of these are part of the same multinational? 100%?
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Jun 15, 2021 16:27
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Rappaport posted:Why is Kellog's authoritarian left? Isn't anti-masturbation usually an authoritarian-right position? Is
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Jun 15, 2021 16:33
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