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AnEdgelord posted:does this one have a randomized map or is it like the last one where it was a premade one? I didn't play last time, but this one seems to be premade. In that I started a second game and the map was exactly the same. Anyway, I was wondering if there was any reason not to merge all of your cities into one giant mega-city? Because honestly I really, really want to do that.
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Jun 14, 2021 10:17
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please don't cherry-pick partial timelines:
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Jun 14, 2021 10:27
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I cant progress. Im at war with some Mongolians and their horses just keep circling each other so I can never take my turn.
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Jun 14, 2021 13:18
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*laughs genghishly*
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Jun 14, 2021 15:30
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I feel as though they may have overnerfed the Victor build, I'm having a lot less fun this version because building is so slow. As a result the pacing is really rough, I'm rushing through eras culturally much faster than I am technologically while trying to hard-focus my citizens to research, and I don't have time to build a fraction of the infrastructure/etc from a previous era. But maybe I just haven't discovered this build's tricks yet. I will say that I definitely don't like how they removed the agrarian/aesthete abilities that I actually used and only left the ones I never used.Clarste posted:I didn't play last time, but this one seems to be premade. In that I started a second game and the map was exactly the same. I mean, you can, but it wouldn't be in any way efficient, not the least of which because a city can only ever grow by 1 population per turn. Buller posted:I cant progress. Im at war with some Mongolians and their horses just keep circling each other so I can never take my turn. I got stuck on one particular turn where the game got hung up on confirming a battle against a minor state, thankfully the game has autosaves every turn so I just reloaded and retreated from the battle.
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Jun 14, 2021 18:32
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Magil Zeal posted:I mean, you can, but it wouldn't be in any way efficient, not the least of which because a city can only ever grow by 1 population per turn. Huh, I never noticed the population growth thing. Honestly, given that it takes a tech and a huge pile of Influence to merge cities, not to mention the stability penalties for having so many territories under one city, I would have expected it to be more efficient, as a sort of bonus thing you can do.
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Jun 14, 2021 18:38
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The main efficiency you get from merged megacities is that you only have to build one set of infrastructure.
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Jun 14, 2021 18:59
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I dont like this build it feels so slow. Everything is just so incredible slow compared to before. Also Ive been just slamming next turn for like 40 turns because im boxed in and all thats left is war.
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Jun 14, 2021 19:00
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Buller posted:I dont like this build it feels so slow. Everything is just so incredible slow compared to before. Maybe I am playing wrong but I feel like you get way too little Influence early on and you need it for everything, especially expansion, and then by the end you are generating 3000 a turn but you're boxed in with nothing to spend it on.
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Jun 14, 2021 19:08
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Danann posted:The main efficiency you get from merged megacities is that you only have to build one set of infrastructure. Yeah, a lot of the time when I'm setting the new world I'll find a few independent peoples which I want to assimilate, but their cities are crap with low pops and hardly any infrastructure. So I'll plop down a colony model or something next to them and merge their crappy city with the one that I just settled which came with a bunch of free infrastructure and pops. That's the main use I've found for the merge city function. Clarste posted:Maybe I am playing wrong but I feel like you get way too little Influence early on and you need it for everything, especially expansion, and then by the end you are generating 3000 a turn but you're boxed in with nothing to spend it on. It felt like that to me too, but once I got my religion rolling I selected a bunch of civics and tenets that gave +influence and it came together reasonably quick. In the very early game though you are definitely influence-starved, given that civics cost influence now, and forget activating the agrarian ability or something. A big roadblock I'm having is that this map is much more resource-poor than the Victor map, and luxuries also give less stability per resource now. I found the "new world" continent and out of a dozen or so territories there are exactly two luxury deposits on the main landmass. Combine that with the nerf to Procession (expected, it was completely overpowered in Victor), and +3 stability per resource instead of +5, and stability feels much more limiting, especially early on.
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Jun 14, 2021 19:26
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Magil Zeal posted:It felt like that to me too, but once I got my religion rolling I selected a bunch of civics and tenets that gave +influence and it came together reasonably quick. In the very early game though you are definitely influence-starved, given that civics cost influence now, and forget activating the agrarian ability or something. Yeah, influence seems like something you have a lot of if you focus on it. Like a dumbass, I focus hard on science/food/production, and I don't think it should be a surprise that doing that starves me of influence. Not that it stopped me from expanding aggressively in Victor. You can't completely shut out the AI, but I feel like that's a good thing. Speaking of merging, how many regions do people go for per city? I go for three, a number I settled on in Lucy because it seemed like going larger led to too many stability issues and haven't revisited since.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:00
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KOGAHAZAN!! posted:Yeah, influence seems like something you have a lot of if you focus on it. Like a dumbass, I focus hard on science/food/production, and I don't think it should be a surprise that doing that starves me of influence. I tend to go for two in the early game and three in the mid-to-late. If I can I might detach and reshuffle my core cities to fit this, but otherwise I don't worry too much. It does depend a bit, in Victor it seemed like the mainland regions were bigger and two gave you a lot of space, but in this build the territories seemed more cramped and three might've been a better call. I've only done one game so far. Civics and tenets are my two favorite places to get Influence, because they tend to scale well compared to other sources. Like getting the civic that puts +5 Influence per territory under your religion's influence helps a lot, then I put +10 Influence on my holy sites. My justification for this is if I want food/industry/gold/science, I can put citizens to work on that, but I can't do so for influence. Common's quarter is decent for it but comes in the mid-to-late game, and necessarily involves sacrificing the yields you'd get from exploitation. I find getting it early is good because you can plop down outposts everywhere for relatively cheap. Something I noticed is that if you find your influence income is very high in the late game, you can just go over the city cap and not notice the increasing penalty to influence too much. I claimed the entire new world in my game, though I was only playing at the default "Nation" difficulty and I vassalized every AI on the home continent (partly from them declaring war on me and me punching their faces in) after out-expanding them and boxing them in. Vassals still provide a lot of income, but I'd say my MVP was the Statue of Liberty. I think it's hands-down the best Industrial wonder, like, compare to the Eiffel Tower, which is around +40-60 Industry per city in the late game, or the Statue of Liberty, which was giving me +2~3k gold and research. I don't think there's any contest. Edit: Just Statue of Liberty things: 
Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 23:25
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Picked up the closed beta off Twitch drops last night and boy am I bad at this game. Bloody Mongol horses.
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Jun 15, 2021 09:52
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Really cool of them to do this during the week of 9000 international football matches and also without addressing the wtf is the name of this territory issue
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Jun 15, 2021 10:35
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Here are some of my takeways so far: 1) Seems wise to try and stay neutral ideology-wise for the early and mid game. 10% of a yield is not worth +20 stability on all cities, which will get you two more districts in every city. Late game this may change, but you should still weigh the value of the district and add in citizen yields (if you'll be working the slot) against the ideology bonuses. Even in my largest, most focused cities this can seem to be a wash. 2) To get an idea of how resource-poor this map is, I controlled 36 territories on turn 200 and had only 16 luxury resources and 20 strategics in my own lands. Most of the strategies were copper, iron, and horses, there was only 1 source of oil. 3) There's something strange about "+X yield per district" bonuses, in that they seem to apply not only to districts that produce X yield, but also any exploitation that produces X yield. This means that, for example, Egypt's +1 Industry on district producing industry not only affects all Maker's Quarters, but also each and every exploited tile producing at least 1 Industry. Not sure if bug or bad wording, but it was also in the Victor OpenDev and isn't listed as a known issue so  Note that this is a good reason why Joseon is very powerful, the civilization bonus adds +4 Research to coastal tiles exploited by a harbor, and each Seowon in a city adds another +3 on top of that.4) It's not obvious at first glance, but if an emblematic district exploits a particular yield, it counts as that type of district most of the time. For example, the Kaiserdom only produces Faith, but because it exploits Industry, it counts as a Maker's Quarter for the sake of being adjacent to other Maker's Quarters and infrastructure like the Forge. I say "most" because it seems that for example a Forge will give a Kaiserdom +1 Industry as a result of "+1 Industry on Maker's Quarter", but it will not grant it +1 Industry for each adjacent Maker's Quarter. However, the Forge will give other Maker's Quarters +1 Industry for being adjacent to the Kaiserdom. Emblematic districts tend to have powerful adjacency bonuses of their own to compensate for this. Consequently, the Cothon counts as a Maker's Quarter, a Market Quarter, and a Farmer's Quarter (though not a Research Quarter it seems despite exploiting research, though if you're Joseon it will exploit the research on its own tile and the Seowon will count it as a district producing Research). It's noticeable because when you get electricity it will give the Cothon +1 food/industry/money per coal (but not research). The normal harbor does not seem to get any of these benefits. Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 10:41
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Amplitude making balance decisions based on beta test feedback where everyone is playing on the same map with mostly the same conditions seems like a bad idea. What may be balanced for one map may not be balanced for others.
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Jun 15, 2021 11:20
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Amplitude making balance decisions
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Jun 15, 2021 11:39
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Amplitude making balance decisions based on beta test feedback where everyone is playing on the same map with mostly the same conditions seems like a bad idea. What may be balanced for one map may not be balanced for others. I think there's something to be said for a controlled environment. It wouldn't be very useful if someone playing on a pangea said that naval units are worthless while someone else played islands and said they were very important. At least in this setup, they can focus their feedback on a particular set of parameters. Like, I know they were trying to test out the naval game in the Victor OpenDev but felt that it didn't really come up. And it appears to be the same in this build, I didn't see the point of ever getting boats. If they were trying to design the map in a way to push boats, then they probably failed (though if they weren't, then it doesn't matter).
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Jun 15, 2021 15:30
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Okay, I’m playing the beta and have questions. * What’s the point of attaching territories to cities? It seems really expensive, influence-wise. * How do I know what areas of my region are being used by my city? It seems like there’s a lot of good space but I don’t know how that relates to the city center/district placement.
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Jun 16, 2021 01:15
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A city harvests the yields of every tile next to or under its districts. When you attach a province to a city, that outpost functions as part of the city, and contributes its yields (and pop) to the city. Also the city can construct districts adjacent to that outpost. You can even construct unique, limited districts this way; the rule is one per territory, not one per city. Speaking of, the Joseon (Early Modern Koreans) are nuts. Their harbours adds a science yield to every coast tile within like eight spaces, and their unique district increases the yield of any tile that outputs science. The first one I put down added about 180 science to its city. I put one in a lovely 5-tile lake, and got about sixty science. Basically my output tripled in a few turns, with very little effort on my part. I guess by picking them you miss out on the Turks, and their ability which permanently disables the Stability mechanic, but still.
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Jun 16, 2021 01:32
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Anyone know if industrial/later units still differ cosmetically by culture? It kinda bugged me how civ 4 and the like would usually just give up on cultural cosmetics once you hit musketmen
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Jun 16, 2021 01:55
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Appreciate the answers, Kazzah. So is it better to have one big city with lots of support or lots of little cities with no support? It feels like the latter allows me to specialize better and produce multiple things simultaneously. Also, I'm just completely getting rolled over by the Mycenae to my south in the beta, so I have more questions: * What can I do to protect any of my outposts from being rolled over by his influence? Out of nowhere I was suddenly told that my outposts next to him were about to flip to him, apparently because I don't produce influence in those areas, but I can't produce influence at all with anything in an outpost? Or in my city? * Does the complete lack of influence production in early game mean that early on I'm just hosed if I try to settle an area adjacent to an enemy-owned wonder? Or, really, just generally hosed if I don't settle a space with a wonder for the massive influence income it seems to give? * How is it that I was the first out of the Neolithic, but every other civ made it to Classical before I'm even at 4 stars out of 7? Am I missing something I should be doing to rush stars and advance civs? I grabbed the Babylonians and tried to tech up and grow people with agriculture. Also, WTF is this bullshit that units give a zone of control and can't be moved past on the over map, but as soon as we're in a fight it's perfectly cool for them to run through the open spaces around my front line fighters and one-shot my archers I am not pleased at all with this. skeleton warrior fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 03:13
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skeleton warrior posted:Appreciate the answers, Kazzah. So is it better to have one big city with lots of support or lots of little cities with no support? It feels like the latter allows me to specialize better and produce multiple things simultaneously. The best way (imo) to get influence early on is to focus on food to grow your pops, get a religion and then do this:   Also pick +5 Influence on your main plaza for your first civic, it will cost influence to pick it but increase your output and is thus worth it. A Natural Wonder is only +5 Influence per turn so that's about even. Also, it doesn't say this, but I'm pretty sure you get +1 Influence per pop (+2 at 90+ stability), so growing your pops again helps. Combat has a few nuances to be aware of: while zone of control can prevent some units from moving more than one space past your units, there are some ways around this. Cavalry basically ignores this altogether. It really does help to build walls in your cities, which will also build walls in your districts and outposts attached to them, were cavalry units cannot cross and you can put your ranged units in them. Also, units can move past your units if they are moving through an allied space to do so, but only one square past them. Watch out for this. It's best to try your best to fight where there are elevations and chokepoints you can leverage to your advantage. Kazzah posted:Speaking of, the Joseon (Early Modern Koreans) are nuts. Their harbours adds a science yield to every coast tile within like eight spaces, and their unique district increases the yield of any tile that outputs science. The first one I put down added about 180 science to its city. I put one in a lovely 5-tile lake, and got about sixty science. Basically my output tripled in a few turns, with very little effort on my part. I guess by picking them you miss out on the Turks, and their ability which permanently disables the Stability mechanic, but still. I believe harbors only exploit 2 tiles away, but this is still a large amount of tiles compared to what other districts exploit, and yeah Joseon is pretty crazy. It's not mutually exclusive with the Turks though, Joseon is Early Modern while the Turks are Contemporary (and thus not playable in this build). Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 03:37
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Joseon Line Infantry slingshot is pretty legit for when there is literally no developed source of saltpeter outside of the random independent nation.For bonus hilarity, research the tech that upgrades your militia to the industrial era militia and your cities will become literally invincible to anyone still stuck on medieval units and probably even early modern units (aka the AI).
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Jun 16, 2021 05:23
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Okay, forward-settled the gently caress out of the Mycena and constantly sparred my scouts against theirs. Played as the Zhou because my capital could drop its specialty district next to four mountains for +21 science a turn which got me a lot of techs quick, and was able to get to the Classical Age third this time due to science and influence production. But Mycenae built nothing but military units and trying to build a unique district, irrigation, and a holy site apparently ate up all my production time so I got my poo poo kicked in again. How do you guys actually get to the point where Joseon is a choice? This game seems super unplayable in this beta.
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Jun 16, 2021 05:55
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skeleton warrior posted:Okay, forward-settled the gently caress out of the Mycena and constantly sparred my scouts against theirs. Played as the Zhou because my capital could drop its specialty district next to four mountains for +21 science a turn which got me a lot of techs quick, and was able to get to the Classical Age third this time due to science and influence production. Archers should handle the Mycenaean unique unit well enough with some terrain and spears to hide behind, but I find a lot of success in this game when you don't blatantly out-tech an enemy is mostly about finding the right battlefield. Terrain makes a big difference when it comes to winning against a reasonably on-level foe.
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Jun 16, 2021 06:00
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How re-playable is the Beta? Is it 200 total turns or 200 turn games? Will I hate myself for buying this and then having it shut off?
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Jun 16, 2021 12:37
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Veryslightlymad posted:How re-playable is the Beta? Is it 200 total turns or 200 turn games? You can replay the campaign up to the 200th turn multiple times as far as I know. However, it's on a fixed map with a fixed start location, so your replayability is limited to trying different strats on the same map.
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Jun 16, 2021 12:45
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Am I just not supposed to build districts? Is that a trap choice I'm falling in to? It seems like districts early on don't provide much value in comparison to the amount of time it takes to make them, combined with having to spend extra time on stability buildings. I assumed new districts would allow me to get exploitation from the new hexes my city touches, but that doesn't seem to be happening? Should my first city just be churning out units? I've been avoiding that given that every unit costs me population and at best I'm able to get one every four turns, but I guess I can produce units every four turns, so that's all I should do with my first city? Appreciate any help, or links to people who show how they've approached the beta, because I'm finding the game unplayable.
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Jun 16, 2021 17:49
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skeleton warrior posted:Am I just not supposed to build districts? Is that a trap choice I'm falling in to? Districts do exploit terrain*; every adjacent tile is exploited and added to the city's yields. They only exploit the resource they're tied to, ie Farmer's Quarters will only exploit food. They also exploit the tile they are placed upon, and will remove yields that don't correspond to the district. A district can be valuable or worthless depending on where it is placed. Districts have a base yield and like to be adjacent to other districts of the same type. For example, a Maker's Quarter adds +1 Industry to the tile it's placed on, and also gets another +1 Industry for each adjacent Maker's Quarter. A Forge increases both of these bonuses by another +1. Not really sure where you're getting that they're not worth the investment? Like a strategy game, especially a 4X game, is all about measuring investments. You have industry, you need to put it into something, and districts will generally pay for themselves in one way or another if they are placed well, though it may take some time. *This does come with the caveat that not every district exploits terrain, but the ones you get early do. Most districts that don't produce food/industry/research/money don't exploit terrain, but when in doubt, what yields it exploits are listed in the tooltip for the district in question. Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 18:37
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I had a good Hun -> Mongol -> Mongol run going and then apparently I made too many horsies because the game locked on turn 130 and no amount of re-loading seemed to fix it. Game was basically over anyway. All but 2 nations vassalized and huge swaths of the continent churning out more horsies.
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Jun 16, 2021 19:33
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Magil Zeal posted:Districts do exploit terrain*; every adjacent tile is exploited and added to the city's yields. They only exploit the resource they're tied to, ie Farmer's Quarters will only exploit food. They also exploit the tile they are placed upon, and will remove yields that don't correspond to the district. A district can be valuable or worthless depending on where it is placed. Okay, so if I put a farm quarter on the edge of my city, it adds +1 food to the space’s yield, but also activates for exploitation food in all of the adjacent spaces? Is it better, then, to snake our districts so you’re exploiting more spaces? Is this explained at all in the game? The tutorial just goes “hey it helps with yields try it out!!!!!” and the encyclopedia doesn’t open, so I’m feeling hosed trying to understand basic mechanics in this game. quote:Not really sure where you're getting that they're not worth the investment? Like a strategy game, especially a 4X game, is all about measuring investments. You have industry, you need to put it into something, and districts will generally pay for themselves in one way or another if they are placed well, though it may take some time. Yeah, but in the time it takes me to build three districts and start the aqueduct I need to offset stability, the AI opponent who hates me has built three unique units and an archer and I’m hosed. So while “over time” is nice, I’m not able to survive to the Classical Age so there must be some really basic goddamned thing I’m missing.
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Jun 16, 2021 19:56
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skeleton warrior posted:Okay, so if I put a farm quarter on the edge of my city, it adds +1 food to the space’s yield, but also activates for exploitation food in all of the adjacent spaces? Is it better, then, to snake our districts so you’re exploiting more spaces? I mean, it kind of depends, for example "Stone Field" and "Woodlands" don't have any food so snaking your farmer's quarters out into them won't do anything for you, and because of the aforementioned adjacency bonus (which can be increased with Animal Barns) stacking your districts together in clumps will increase their yields. When you're placing a district the game will show you the best places to put them in terms of yields, and while it may not be perfect planning in a situation where you're aiming for a particular terrain feature, it's good enough most of the time. Which is why I suspect the tutorials don't really go into more depth, the game shows you the best spots to place the district already. But of course, everything is situational, if you have an aggressive AI on your border that changes the math. Leader traits and personality details can be viewed on the diplomacy screen via mouse-over, I suggest looking out for those because I believe the southern neighbor on this map has an "attacks on sight" personality trait. As for what you were saying before, remember that you don't necessarily need to beeline a public fountain and build it right away to "offset" stability if you have a more pressing need (like an "attacks on sight" neighbor on your border). Stability is fine as long as it's over 30%. You can build a few districts before you reach that point. Further, and this is one thing I really wish the game did explain because I had no idea until I noticed it in the stability breakdown tooltip, keeping an army in your city's territory increases its stability by 5 for each unit in the army. Only one army counts I believe, but this works, and it's another way to help offset your stability while also mounting an effective defense.
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Jun 16, 2021 20:14
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Have you played the open beta? How do you deal with the Green player to the south who aggressively settles next to you then shows up with a stack of four units ready to rampage?
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Jun 16, 2021 20:36
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Go for the cultures with unique units that require minimal investment and keep punching Green for territory and gold.
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Jun 16, 2021 20:49
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skeleton warrior posted:Have you played the open beta? How do you deal with the Green player to the south who aggressively settles next to you then shows up with a stack of four units ready to rampage? My first two cities were settled a bit on the northern end of where you start on the map, and I don't think I even saw their borders until later on. I managed to plug up the natural wonder down there with an outpost and held it, not really sure what tactics I used in particular. I will say there are a lot of rivers on this map so be careful about standing units in them, being on a river tile reduces your combat strength. Also getting to move first is a big advantage so don't be afraid to "retreat" and try to regroup so you can get in the first strike.
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Jun 16, 2021 20:54
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skeleton warrior posted:Have you played the open beta? How do you deal with the Green player to the south who aggressively settles next to you then shows up with a stack of four units ready to rampage? I just got this game but I don't know he loves me and I swiped that natural wonder from under him and blocked him into his peninsula. I think what was key was forgiving him for a transgression or something.
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Jun 16, 2021 20:55
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Here's some general early game tactics I like to use: -In the Neolithic era you can put down outposts with the influence you gain from curiosities and hunting animals, you should do this. Outposts will gain population which will carry over when you eventually turn them into or attach them to cities. -I use an Expert policy for citizen management of Researcher>Farmer>Worker>Trader (or Research/Food/Industry/Money). The last two are largely interchangeable, but I find buyouts are kind of weak in this build unless you have the Carthaginian trait. This means it will fill all researcher slots, then all farmer slots, etc. -I try to get lots of tribes in the Neolithic era. On Nation and below there's definitely no rush to advance to the ancient era right away, take some time and collect more curiosities, always plunder animal lairs/sanctuaries because they will give 20 food. -When the ancient era starts and tribes convert to scouts, I tend to disband at least 2 scouts in my capital city to instantly get 2 extra population. If you founded this outpost early you may start with some pops too.
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Jun 16, 2021 21:02
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I really appreciate all of the advice. I didn't realize I could disband units for population, which seems like a great jump start. I managed to get pretty far in this latest run, really only hitting disaster when I decided to declare war when I wasn't nearly ready for it. One major mistake I was making was trying to attach two or three territories to my starting city because it was cheaper than a new city, but the stability hit, combined with the second and third not really adding much value, made it a huge mistake. This time I made a second city with my third territory, and that ended up being a good balance of being able to keep things running. I'm also finding that archers are just bad in the current build. They don't do as much damage as spearmen, and they just roll over and die if any unit hits them; and the weird "ZOC exists but you can move ZOC to ZOC and then hit something a space away" combined with "oh and cavalry just ignore ZOC" meant that my archers usually got killed quickly if I wasn't fighting in an absolute kill zone.
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Jun 17, 2021 00:01
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Hilarious poo poo I've found for all that influence past the land grab: detach the territories from the main city and then burn influence to build up harbors and extractors and then reattach. It saves you a lot of production that way.
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Jun 17, 2021 09:08
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