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liberals' minds are so thoroughly colonized by capital that those who have the sense to recognize it's bad (anarchists) can't imagine an alternative structure because, to them, all structure is capitalism, and therefore all structure is bad. communist law enforcement would serve the common interest, it has to or whatever you have going on there isn't actually communism, because the locus of power is somewhere other than the people. Cops couldn't consolidate power because it'd challenge communal power, just in the same way that like fuckin CHAZ or whatever can't challenge capital, the structures go one way. We need them to go the other way, not eliminate them.
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Jun 14, 2021 22:27
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Lastly, only communism makes the state absolutely unnecessary, for there is nobody to be suppressed--“nobody” in the sense of a class, of a systematic struggle against a definite section of the population. We are not utopians, and do not in the least deny the possibility and inevitability of excesses on the part of individual persons, or the need to stop such excesses. In the first place, however, no special machine, no special apparatus of suppression, is needed for this: this will be done by the armed people themselves, as simply and as readily as any crowd of civilized people, even in modern society, interferes to put a stop to a scuffle or to prevent a woman from being assaulted. And, secondly, we know that the fundamental social cause of excesses, which consist in the violation of the rules of social intercourse, is the exploitation of the people, their want and their poverty. With the removal of this chief cause, excesses will inevitably begin to "wither away". We do not know how quickly and in what succession, but we do know they will wither away. With their withering away the state will also wither away.
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Jun 14, 2021 22:32
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indigi posted:there's hope and there's naivety, but the idea that nobody will ever be mugged or murdered or that some jerks won't get together and beat up everyone who doesn't look like them is foolish i agree with that, i guess my question is in an authoritarian leftist society like this thread seems to be leaning towards, how do you make sure the guy in charge of the not-quite-police isnt a serial rapist like the aforementioned Beria? in an anarchist society you could argue that oh, the not-quite-police wouldnt have enough power consolidated to stop the head not-cop from being held accountable but that seems overly optimistic. im not trying to insist on utopia, but it feels like any plan for the future should be looking at the poo poo that went wrong in the past and there have been some real loving winners that managed to get in power in the past. and then i see people in CSPAM talking about how crushing dissident voices is good, actually, and all i can see is a society where i get disappeared for saying "why is this person in charge rather than (dead or whatever the equivalent of in jail is)?" Pentecoastal Elites posted:communist law enforcement would serve the common interest, it has to or whatever you have going on there isn't actually communism, because the locus of power is somewhere other than the people. okay how do you stop it from becoming not actually communism after a brief period of being communism? 22 Eargesplitten has issued a correction as of 22:42 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 22:40
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22 Eargesplitten posted:i agree with that, i guess my question is in an authoritarian leftist society like this thread seems to be leaning towards, how do you make sure the guy in charge of the not-quite-police isnt a serial rapist like the aforementioned Beria? in an anarchist society you could argue that oh, the not-quite-police wouldnt have enough power consolidated to stop the head not-cop from being held accountable but that seems overly optimistic. Shut up dummy
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Jun 14, 2021 23:07
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quote:Whatever faults there may be with state socialism, politically speaking people are too ambitious for a pedophile ring to be possible. As soon as an outsider catches a whiff of something like it, they could inform on you and take that as their ticket to promotion. It doesn't really matter how powerful you and your buddies are individually, because other political cliques will jump at any chance to destroy you. At "best" you might be so powerful and have so much dirt on people like Beria did that nobody touches you, but still if you brought in others to form a club those people become weak links in the conspiracy because they can be outed and finger yourself. Plus how are you going to keep the conspiracy running with a state salary? Beria could do it because the Soviet Union was still in a shoot first and ask questions later mindset, but those social conditions don't last forever.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:12
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fretting, handwringing, over all these contradictions, demanding they must be solved before any action taken is a kind of utopianist thinking.quote:[T]he dictatorship of the proletariat, the transition from capitalism to communism, must not be regarded as a fleeting period of "super-revolutionary" acts and decrees, but as an entire historical era, replete with civil wars and external conflicts, with persistent organisational work and economic construction, with advances and retreats, victories and defeats. The historical era is needed not only to create the economic and cultural prerequisites for the complete victory of socialism, but also to enable the proletariat, firstly, to educate itself and become steeled as a force capable of governing the country, and, secondly, to re-educate and remould the petty-bourgeois strata along such lines as will assure the organisation of socialist production.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:13
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kingcobweb posted:if you say “all cops are bastards” and actually believe it, rather than thinking it’s hyperbole or just a fun catchphrase, you’ve incorporated anarchism into your ideology Anyone can say they're communist, this sentence means nothing.
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Jun 14, 2021 23:28
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Cops are tankies
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Jun 14, 2021 23:31
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22 Eargesplitten posted:okay how do you stop it from becoming not actually communism after a brief period of being communism? you don't need to do anything, capitalism won't spring up somewhere for the same reason a liege lord isn't going door to door in your neighborhood demanding a wheat tithe. You don't get communism until the actual power is actually collectivized, and once that happens you don't throw it back to a small minority of hyperconsuming elite for the same reasons the jeff bezoses and elon musks of the world aren't giving away their wealth voluntarily. I know you want to say "aha but look the soviet union was bad!!!" and there's enough discourse on if the USSR counted as Actually Communist, or to what degree, but at least I'll say that because the workers of the world haven't successfully thrown off their chains and seized control of the means of production that their communist project failed (and so has the chinese communist project, etc)
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Jun 14, 2021 23:51
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22 Eargesplitten posted:i agree with that, i guess my question is in an authoritarian leftist society like this thread seems to be leaning towards, how do you make sure the guy in charge of the not-quite-police isnt a serial rapist like the aforementioned Beria? in an anarchist society you could argue that oh, the not-quite-police wouldnt have enough power consolidated to stop the head not-cop from being held accountable but that seems overly optimistic. To put it more bluntly than the other good responses--you're so worried over "what if Beria is doing the purges" that you miss the more common, and recent, "what if Yeltsin and Putin and their ilk aren't purged" problem. The transition to a commonwealth with no real authority over its elements lasted a few months before whoops a whole bunch of local authorities realized there was no one left forcing them to not sell themselves the state for kopeks on the ruble and subsequently rule as capitalists. And to deal with the Beria problem within that, the best mitigation is probably the lack of imminent external threats pushing politics toward war-footing autocracy--a situation most posters here, living in the metropole and assuming success there, would find themselves in. Another mitigation would be the effective embrace of an internal or external exile system from which dissidents could be recalled, something that I'll note the gulag system was far, far better at than the katorgas it replaced and that (if a modern implementation continued to mirror working conditions for "free" rural labor on large-scale projects--gulags at their worst had a survivorship expectancy quite similar to the Panama Canal) would be quite cushy even by the standards of the corrections system that's our continuing status quo until we stop trying to arrive at a perfect system first.
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Jun 15, 2021 01:24
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the very phrase "authoritarian leftist society" presupposes such a thing as a non-authoritarian society, leftist or otherwise, and, bad news, ain't no such thing*. every state is a class dictatorship. the decisive question is which class gets to appropriate and apportion the social surplus, not what historically-contingent shape local institutions happen to have taken. the flaw in anarchist thinking lies in assuming there's an option, like the working class takes power and then it gets the mass effect 3 ending dialogue spread and, tragically, has pressed the wrong button every time so far * and "authoritarian" itself is, hence, a meaningless word Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 02:00 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 01:58
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Ferrinus posted:the very phrase "authoritarian leftist society" presupposes such a thing as a non-authoritarian society, leftist or otherwise, and, bad news, ain't no such thing*. every state is a class dictatorship. the decisive question is which class gets to appropriate and apportion the social surplus, not what historically-contingent shape local institutions happen to have taken. the flaw in anarchist thinking lies in assuming there's an option, like the working class takes power and then it gets the mass effect 3 ending dialogue spread and, tragically, has pressed the wrong button every time so far it’s very simple to say “the working class takes power.” okay, who gets to make the decisions on behalf of the working class? and who enforces those decisions? do the decision-makers have day jobs that put them in the same level of society as the ones affected by the decisions or are thy elevated above the rest?
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Jun 15, 2021 02:08
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kingcobweb posted:it’s very simple to say “the working class takes power.” okay, who gets to make the decisions on behalf of the working class? and who enforces those decisions? do the decision-makers have day jobs that put them in the same level of society as the ones affected by the decisions or are thy elevated above the rest? Deputies to the organs of State power at all levels have close ties with their constituents and are accountable to them for their work. The electors may recall the deputies they have elected if the latter are not to be trusted. The social system of the DPRK is a people-centered system under which the working people are masters of everything, and everything in society serves the working people. The State shall defend and protect the interests of the workers, peasants and working intellectuals who have been freed from exploitation and oppression and become masters of the State and society. The SPA is composed of deputies elected on the principle of universal, equal and direct suffrage by secret ballot.
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Jun 15, 2021 02:21
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I think I'd say that communism is the resolution of class conflict rather than communism is perfect class dictatorship (though I guess you could phrase it that way). To be specific, communism is the resolution of class via socialism, where you go from a dictatorship of the capital class, to a dictatorship of the working class in socialism (which still has an identifiable "working class") to the communization of the means of production in communism, beyond and apart from the class dynamic -- because the owning class has been dissolved through socialism. There's no class conflict in communism because there's no other class to contend with, it's workers all the way down. This is important because it represents a foundational change in the structures of power that we, capital subjects, can't really intuit and just have to reason about from a distance. Let's say you have your Beria, just born hosed up, that rises to a high position in your communist law enforcement structure and wants to do a bunch of rapes -- why protect him? Why wouldn't you blow the whistle on him? There's not a lot he could give you -- the material accoutrements of power would carry a lot less weight in a society where you can be fairly certain of getting everything you need whenever you need it. What is money? A second house? Why would you want that? You can't live two places at once. Why couldn't someone use it when you're not there? What do you gain from "owning" it? Prestige? What power would a Beria have to ensure your social position that couldn't be (vastly) improved by exposing him as the rapist he is? In a communist world-society the power rests with the people, who would benefit from removing Berias from positions of authority so they, their loved ones, etc, wouldn't be raped. There's no other class that would benefit from, or consist of, Berias. A cabal of working-class rapists that infest the administrative position of what? Local police forces? Local soviets? Higher-order law enforcement offices? Why would they have any jurisdiction outside of coordinating the activity of subordinate law enforcement? It's just another job; maybe it carries a little more social prestige but that's pretty thin gruel for a conspiracy of rapists, all of whom would have a profound social pressure to rat out their co-conspirators. This is why you have to actually do the loving process and have, you know, the workers of the world unite and not just grab your army and declare communism, but only here, and it ends at our borders. You haven't resolved class, and even if you could get close within a single country (and not have the victorious military immediately become the party officials and de-facto bourgeoisie) external class pressures are going to prevent you from actually doing the thing. kingcobweb posted:it’s very simple to say “the working class takes power.” okay, who gets to make the decisions on behalf of the working class? and who enforces those decisions? do the decision-makers have day jobs that put them in the same level of society as the ones affected by the decisions or are thy elevated above the rest? It's all just another job, regardless of where in the tree you land. This doesn't make intuitive sense to capital subjects because in our world there is always an individual material benefit to betraying the community in the interests of selfishness. This is not true in a post-capital world, where the idea of currying favor from people higher up in the org chart doesn't make a ton of sense for the reasons I've outlined above.
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Jun 15, 2021 02:27
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kingcobweb posted:it’s very simple to say “the working class takes power.” okay, who gets to make the decisions on behalf of the working class? and who enforces those decisions? do the decision-makers have day jobs that put them in the same level of society as the ones affected by the decisions or are thy elevated above the rest? who gets to make decisions on behalf of the ruling class now? you think jeff bezos and elon musk don't suffer from the principal-agent problem where the bureaucracy that's supposed to protect and advance their interests instead does weird self-serving poo poo instead? there's plenty of wrangling and struggle between the actual bourgeoisie on one hand and the various executives and legislators and bean-counters who actually perform the tasks of administration and governance, like that one time hillary clinton made a vaguely pro-UHC statement on her 2016 campaign and immediately got angry phone calls from corporate donors who were just feeling really attacked right now nevertheless, we live in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. there's no "bureaucratic individualism" in which head of the IRS charles r. pettig wields untoward power that usurps the rightful authority of the capitalists. institutions are ultimately the puppets and appendages of the classes whose conflict drives history, not classes unto themselves. every institution has the tendency to grow and apportion to itself more power, but it also has the tendency to decay and degenerate. which happens is determined by class forces, not some kind of corruptive power immanent to administration itself. this is why the catholic church is diminishing rather than growing in the modern era
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Jun 15, 2021 02:30
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Ferrinus posted:who gets to make decisions on behalf of the ruling class now? you think jeff bezos and elon musk don't suffer from the principal-agent problem where the bureaucracy that's supposed to protect and advance their interests instead does weird self-serving poo poo instead? there's plenty of wrangling and struggle between the actual bourgeoisie on one hand and the various executives and legislators and bean-counters who actually perform the tasks of administration and governance, like that one time hillary clinton made a vaguely pro-UHC statement on her 2016 campaign and immediately got angry phone calls from corporate donors who were just feeling really attacked right now you’re answering me like I’m some HRC stan, all you did is critique capitalism. I’m aware capitalism is bad the difference between bezos/musk and a theoretical working class dictatorship is the number of people that are supposedly dictators being charitable to your comparison, if the shareholders of Amazon don’t like how the company is run they can elect different people to the board you need strong ways for the working class to actually control the decisions so Stalin can’t just take out a comedically oversized machine gun like The Mask and go “don’t worry yall this is on behalf of the working class” and mow down factory workers staging a wildcat strike for better wages left unchecked the people making decisions will simply decide to make their own lives better and better, so the people making decisions need to ACTUALLY be the workers. which is why the most revolutionary thing we can do in modern capitalism is workplace organizing i think marxists and anarchists make good points about the flaws in each other’s ideology (both sides being overly utopian, especially) but I haven’t seen any good marxist solutions to bakunin’s example of the “people’s stick”
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Jun 15, 2021 02:48
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god anarchists are loving embarrassing lmao. its just "human nature" appeals + anti-communist brain damage about stalin + some inherent goodness of being a Worker.
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Jun 15, 2021 02:54
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Are communists more or less gay than anarchists? I will support the side with the maximum number of lesbians with low standards
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Jun 15, 2021 02:58
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tankies are extremely queer but anarchists probably have them in raw numbers because of how much more accessible it is to the illiterate libertarian left
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Jun 15, 2021 03:00
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:its just "human nature" appeals it’s incredibly funny because how else are we supposed to get anarchism unless everyone is a perfect angel but for capitalism and hierarchy
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Jun 15, 2021 03:04
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kingcobweb posted:you’re answering me like I’m some HRC stan, all you did is critique capitalism. I’m aware capitalism is bad no! i didn't actually critique capitalism at all. i gestured to capitalism as an example of a class dictatorship. the whole point is that elon musk and jeff bezos are NOT "dictators". they're just capitalists trying to obey the whims of capital in hopes of being rewarded with more capital. the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie is expressly NOT bezos, musk, gates, etc all getting together in a room and deciding what happens. it's an entire network of institutions filled with individuals, rife with corruption, shot through with internecine struggles and inefficiencies and personal foibles, often at direct loggerheads with various members of the capitalist class or even the bourgeoisie entire which nevertheless ensures that the exploitation of workers by capitalists continues nursing a preoccupation with like, individual bureaucrats getting greedy and seizing power for themselves is just a waste of your time and energy. obviously people do that in any system, but just as obviously, it happens downstream, not upstream, of the class dictatorship. said class dictatorship is bigger than any individual member of that class, which is why you see capitalist states sometimes turn on and destroy individual (or even groups of) capitalists. the US government is a manifestation of bourgeois power even when it raises taxes on the rich or makes welfare benefits more generous. it's doing things for the rich that the rich can't do for themselves, even if it makes individual capitalists cry and sulk
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Jun 15, 2021 03:18
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still lmaoing at "DotP just means a lot of dictators"
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Jun 15, 2021 03:23
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:still lmaoing at "DotP just means a lot of dictators" It's right there in the name, DICTATORship of the proletariat.
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Jun 15, 2021 03:34
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Check and mate marxists. 
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Jun 15, 2021 03:34
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Are we really stanning the DPRK now? lmao
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Jun 15, 2021 09:38
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the DPRK has not compromised on private property the way Cuba has, does not maintain a capitalist sector the way China does, cannot even be accused of committing "economic imperialism" as with regards the Belt-and-Road program, and for the most part keeps its interaction with the West's market system to a minimum. There are no billionaires in the DPRK, no allegations of seized territory as with Tibet, no allegations of abusing an ethnic minority as with the Uighurs what's not to like?
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Jun 15, 2021 09:53
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name a North Korean video game
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Jun 15, 2021 10:04
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christmas boots posted:name a North Korean video game 
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Jun 15, 2021 10:06
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gradenko_2000 posted:what's not to like? The dictatorship part mostly.
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Jun 15, 2021 10:19
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Orange Devil posted:The dictatorship part mostly. No you see clearly the workers just so happened to authentically decide that the best leader to serve for their entire lifetime all happen to be a family dynasty by sheer coincidence also prison camps, widespread use of the death penalty and mass conscription are good, actually! I am a very sane person.
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Jun 15, 2021 11:01
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To be fair I've never gotten to choose my leaders, was conscripted and I am subject to effectively arbitrary imprisonment and punishment as well. If there was an actual alternative to that you'd have a point, but that just seems to be a constant everywhere, the only difference being how you dress it up.
thotsky has issued a correction as of 11:07 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 11:04
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thotsky posted:To be fair I've never gotten to choose my leaders, was conscripted and I am subject to effectively arbitrary imprisonment and punishment as well. If there was an actual alternative to that you'd have a point, but that just seems to be a constant everywhere, the only difference being how you dress it up. drawing a circle or an x on a piece of paper and putting it into a box every 4 years transforms those scars of dicatorship you've listed into necessary sacrifices for Democracy™
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Jun 15, 2021 11:31
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wow I can't believe this impoverished nation under siege isn't a paradise. must be their own stupid fault imo. time to buy into every bad thing said about them because i'm incredibly smart
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Jun 15, 2021 13:30
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I know some folks whose parents lived in, or they themselves grew up in, North Korea and by all accounts it sucked, so they fled to South Korea where the options were to become a SK/US propaganda mouthpiece or be subject to a life of manual labor and grinding poverty as bad or worse as you had it in the north. or if you were a woman: prostitution, manual labor and grinding poverty. whoops! SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Are we really stanning the DPRK now? lmao i love too stan,,
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Jun 15, 2021 14:27
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John Charity Spring posted:wow I can't believe this impoverished nation under siege isn't a paradise. must be their own stupid fault imo. time to buy into every bad thing said about them because i'm incredibly smart It lost 25% of it's population and all industrial capacity thanks to the demon cracker nation.
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Jun 15, 2021 14:40
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kim jong un is fat!!!!
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Jun 15, 2021 14:40
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https://twitter.com/JucheKoolaid/status/1401323594983120900
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Jun 15, 2021 14:44
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I'm glad larry parrish found a better platform to post in
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Jun 15, 2021 14:48
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leftcom is pretty much the opposite of fabian so the tweet title is inaccurate. bordiga even advocated "revolutionary totalitarianism." great video though
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Jun 15, 2021 14:50
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How childish these anarchists and left coms are I say, screaming “retard” at the camera 
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Jun 15, 2021 15:05
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