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Dwesa posted:New Dev Diary - Cultures Are Forever Hyped for this, but also looking at that bug list kinda glad I haven't tried a playthrough since the last patch.
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Jun 15, 2021 15:19
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What I like about those changes is that devs realize that arbitrary bonuses should not be farther than click away. Like those special succession systems that you learn of if you try to change a succession or by event. CK3 already did a good job with this kind of stuff.
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Jun 15, 2021 15:57
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gently caress yeah, this looks great. Creating custom religions is fun, and this is a similar system for cultures.
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Jun 15, 2021 16:09
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Yeah this looks dope as all hell. Really looking forward to making
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Jun 15, 2021 19:19
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I'm very very curious to see how this works with the melting pot cultures (and cultures that should be melting pots but aren't). Also  at one giving a 10% MaA discount, that's a big rear end bonus right there.
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Jun 15, 2021 19:42
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Given there's a new system of merging cultures, I imagine they'll just be rolled into that system.
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Jun 15, 2021 19:43
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PittTheElder posted:I'm very very curious to see how this works with the melting pot cultures (and cultures that should be melting pots but aren't). i mean, there's pretty op religion tenets too. "hey have this real good cheap cb" "heres a really great way to disinherit children without them trying to kill you too much" etc etc
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Jun 15, 2021 19:45
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bob dobbs is dead posted:i mean, there's pretty op religion tenets too. "hey have this real good cheap cb" "heres a really great way to disinherit children without them trying to kill you too much" etc etc That's true I suppose. I'm just wary of that one choice being the best one always. Also what's the disinherit one?
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Jun 15, 2021 19:49
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PittTheElder posted:That's true I suppose. I'm just wary of that one choice being the best one always. Any version of monasticism.
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Jun 15, 2021 20:51
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I haven't had a chance to read the DD, did they give an ETA for the patch/expansion?
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Jun 15, 2021 23:14
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Moon Slayer posted:I haven't had a chance to read the DD, did they give an ETA for the patch/expansion? you get lovely or lacking etas or you get leviathan-quality dlcs. pick one lol
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Jun 15, 2021 23:28
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Moon Slayer posted:I haven't had a chance to read the DD, did they give an ETA for the patch/expansion? Not in this DD, previously they had made comments that it would be after summer, my WAG has me expecting it early October
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Jun 16, 2021 00:16
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i am a huge anti-fan of the ethos system and dont understand why the devs are stereotyping some cultures as being spiritual and some cultures as being inventive. like, if you want to say a culture is better at raiding or they build universities or they build monumental constructions, these are all specific things and seem totally fine and reasonable as well as guiding to have those types of play styles. but why are we acting like some cultures are smarter or more aggressive than others in the year 2021?
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Jun 16, 2021 00:41
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Because it’s a video game and people like that stuff. Same reason medieval eugenics is a thing
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Jun 16, 2021 00:48
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Some of the stuff there is good, but yeah, the ethos system in particular feels like a step into stereotyping this stuff. Stuff like why are Anglo-Saxons "inventive" and Mashriqi "religious" besides an arbitrary choice by the developers? It also feels really rigid and top-down when cultures should be super dynamic.
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Jun 16, 2021 01:01
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Oh god yeah that reminds me, having England be unusually inventive in the 11th century sure is a take. E: beaten. Can't wait to see the Romans get the Religious speciality. E2: it would be a good opportunity to allow different cultural government styles though, and presumably to allow for things like Crusaders setting themselves up inside the boundary of the Empire and essentially copying the Imperial governance structure and adopting Greek. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 01:01
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Making cultures more than just a word on the character screen/map is inevitably going to lead to stereotyping to some extent. I interpret it more as being a sort of "core ideal", the thing members of this culture typically value overall and informs their approach to most problems. Like how American culture is (IMO) on the whole, very individualist and emphasizes personal freedoms to a significant extent most other cultures don't. So if "liberal" or "individualist" was an ethos, I'd probably assign that to "American". As for the reason why particular cultures get certain ethoses, I don't really mind if it's a little arbitrary. The devs have to pick something, or or would you rather it just be random? It's hard to quantify what it truly means to be "inventive" in this context. However, from what we've seen so far it appears to be static - I'd love for it to change based on your culture's experiences, so that a culture that's constantly invading and raiding others for generations might become Bellicose for example. As far as we know, the only way to change the cultural pillars is to make an entirely new culture. NeverHelm fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 02:42
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Sure but we're talking about a game that spans 600 years, so having a static core ideals for culture feels really off. Thinking about this more i think i'm fine with traditions but i'm not sure what benefit the ethos system in particular adds to the gameplay to balance the possible stereotyping and i honestly think it should just be scrapped.
Frionnel fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 02:45
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I think it represents how you as a leader push your culture in a certain direction. I like it for that reason. I agree the implementation of some of these is probably prone to problems though, I hadn't really thought about how it works applied to AI cultures.
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Jun 16, 2021 02:47
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NeverHelm posted:Making cultures more than just a word on the character screen/map is inevitably going to lead to stereotyping to some extent. I interpret it more as being a sort of "core ideal", the thing members of this culture typically value overall and informs their approach to most problems. Like how American culture is (IMO) on the whole, very individualist and emphasizes personal freedoms to a significant extent most other cultures don't. So if "liberal" or "individualist" was an ethos, I'd probably assign that to "American". I mean your right that my reaction is going to depend on how it gets assigned. But I'm going to be kind of irritated if the English cultures get assigned Inventive or whatever because of 19th century stereotypes, or if the Romans get Spiritual because everyone knows they are 1) Purple 2) Religious.
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Jun 16, 2021 03:54
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It seems to me the system could be made to work if they somehow eliminated the culture "head" mechanic. Find a way to make it so a culture's traits are shaped by the decisions made by all members, rather than arbitrarily decided by the most powerful figure. It would lead to more roleplaying and less metagaming. I don't know how they'd actually do it, maybe certain actions contribute points to a progress bar that unlocks a trait when full. And make the traits expire after 100 years or something so it doesn't play into lovely racist essentialism.
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Jun 16, 2021 04:33
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bob dobbs is dead posted:you get lovely or lacking etas or you get leviathan-quality dlcs. pick one lol No.
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Jun 16, 2021 05:05
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New stuff looks good. Cant wait to play it a few months after release when all the bugs are ironed out.
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Jun 16, 2021 05:06
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Frionnel posted:Sure but we're talking about a game that spans 600 years, so having a static core ideals for culture feels really off. Thinking about this more i think i'm fine with traditions but i'm not sure what benefit the ethos system in particular adds to the gameplay to balance the possible stereotyping and i honestly think it should just be scrapped. They are explicitly not static. You start with a cap of 5 traditions, and cultures begin the game with 3 or 4. The cap increases with Era, and the Cultural Head can spend prestige to introduce new traditions. There's also a "Diverge Culture" button that looks suspiciously like the button to create a new faith
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Jun 16, 2021 16:14
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The traditions aren't static, but the "core ideal" is? (as far as we can tell, anyway - I'd agree that it's very likely that it can be changed when cultures diverge or hybridize). My first reaction (besides "lol Anglo-Saxons as inventive") to that part of the system was "I kinda get why this is a thing but man alive is it going to cause Internet Arguments". There's kind of a base Game Design Thing to build synergies off of that it provides, like the way there are supposed to be 4-5 different kinds of Royal Courts that will then be customised, but it will be very easy to turn into lazy stereotyping etc and it'll take a lot of work for PDS (and the playerbase, lest we forget) to avoid that.
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Jun 16, 2021 16:50
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I guarantee that you are able to change Ethos. It's in the same section as attitudes towards women leading armies, and there's no way that isn't changable
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Jun 16, 2021 16:59
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So far the most entertaining games I've had have been the ones where I start as a custom one-province count. I give myself some small advantage, starting in a high-development county or making a high stewardship ruler, build tall, and then just see where I can end up, grabbing whatever opportunities present themselves. Current game I started near Bavaria and have been having a lot of luck with the forced vassalization cassus belli on the diplo tree because so far every game I've played has had central Europe just completely explode. It's a lot of fun being the only island of stability in a sea of chaos and wars.
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Jun 18, 2021 22:47
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Kaza42 posted:I guarantee that you are able to change Ethos. It's in the same section as attitudes towards women leading armies, and there's no way that isn't changable Is it though? Those are the "pillars" of the culture. If any part of a culture is is static, it's them. The impression I got from the DD is that if you want to change those, you need to make a new culture. The only thing they specifically mentioned as being customizable is Traditions, when adding new ones. Perhaps some traditions override the gender restriction? Hard to say without the full details. Edit: From a dev response on the Paradox forums regarding this question of changing ethos or traditions: Servancour in the DD thread posted:Creating a new culture will be the way for you to change traditions, but we'll go into detail of how that works in a future DD. Later it was also mentioned that ruler can lead their own armies regardless of what the culture thinks. NeverHelm fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jun 19, 2021 |
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Jun 19, 2021 19:54
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I wonder if the pillars and ethoses will allow cool things like assigning militarily important and economically important lands to different cultures. Like how in some medieval societies like the Seljuks the military and the administrative duties would be handled by people belonging to different ethnic groups.
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Jun 19, 2021 22:49
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I have united the Iberian peninsula as a now elderly Sancho II and have three actions to take now: -become emperor -Form Portugal -Unite the spanish thrones What is the optimal order to do these actions? Does becoming an empire preclude taking the other kingdom tier decisions? Does uniting the thrones only merge the original Jimena sibling-held kingdoms or all the titles I have? If so, does that include Portugal? If so, will becoming mega-Portugal be beneficial in any way?
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Jun 20, 2021 15:37
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Asehujiko posted:What is the optimal order to do these actions? Yes, so in your place I would form Portugal, then unite the thrones (especially having already completed the reconquista too), then maybe become an Emperor. Asehujiko posted:Does uniting the thrones only merge the original Jimena sibling-held kingdoms or all the titles I have? It merges all Iberian kingdom titles (so any of Castile, Leon, Galicia, Portugal, Aragon, Navarra, Andalusia, Badajoz, or Valencia) where you control all the de jure land (you don't, I think, need to hold the king title itself as long as you have the land) into one mega-kingdom under your primary title. Asehujiko posted:If so, will becoming mega-Portugal be beneficial in any way? Prevents Confederate Partition splits, people agitating about "not MY rightful liege", and cuts down on independence factions in your non-Portugal Iberian territories, mainly. Plus vassals in those territories will, I recall, pay you more taxes. I'm probably missing something else - it's genuinely pretty beneficial, and de jure drift is slow enough normally that a chance to get it all done in one shot is not to be passed up. Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jun 20, 2021 |
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Jun 20, 2021 18:45
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Dallan Invictus posted:Yes, so in your place I would form Portugal, then unite the thrones (especially having already completed the reconquista too), then maybe become an Emperor. Just be aware that forming Portugal will change your culture to Portuguese, which is both good and bad. It's good because it's a small culture that you control so you can tech quickly (it also gains two random techs from the decision), but bad because you're the only realm with the culture so every one else will have a foreign culture negative modifier. Dallan Invictus posted:It merges all Iberian kingdom titles (so any of Castile, Leon, Galicia, Portugal, Aragon, Navarra, Andalusia, Badajoz, or Valencia) where you control all the de jure land (you don't, I think, need to hold the king title itself as long as you have the land) into one mega-kingdom under your primary title. Correct, you need to have the entire de jure territory in your realm. If there is one kingdom that you don't completely control, make that your primary title so everything else merges into it. Dallan Invictus posted:Plus vassals in those territories will, I recall, pay you more taxes. It's a -50% modifier to taxes, so yes it doubles how much you get from them. Asehujiko posted:]Does becoming an empire preclude taking the other kingdom tier decisions? You can still form Portugal, but not the Unite decision. Uniting the thrones is such a powerful decision that I would absolutely recommend doing it. If you're going to form Portugal, make sure you do it first so you end up with 1 kingdom for the entire peninsula, instead of 2 (Portugal + whatever other one you had).
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Jun 20, 2021 20:08
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I feel like the benefits of a small culture are overwhelmingly superior to the benefits of a large culture. Opinion bonuses can come from just about anywhere, but tech boosts are relatively uncommon. For an interesting start, play a one province Gotland with a custom character, select a dead culture (Old Saxon or something) and just focus on dev-ing. You'll soon be the tech hub of the planet.
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Jun 20, 2021 21:37
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Formed Portugal, then united the thrones. Wanted to form the empire after buuuuut.... I still have the defunct emirate of Zaragosa in my titles list, why couldn't it have done that for the merged kingdoms???
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Jun 20, 2021 21:45
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Has there ever been any discussion (or even mods) that make it so you don't have to continue as the heir to your primary title? Once I've managed to unite a kingdom/empire I tend to get bored after a couple of generations. It would be nice to continue as one of your kids who has inherited a minor title or a title in another region, instead of your primary title's heir.
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Jun 21, 2021 21:15
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Can't you choose the character when loading a save?
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Jun 21, 2021 21:21
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You could always just switch characters with the console.
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Jun 21, 2021 21:23
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After hunting down most of the tricky new Norse achievements (Empire of the North Sea, King of all the Isles, etc) I started a run to work on Mother of Us All (as Daura spread your reformed faith across all of Africa). But now I just can't find the enthusiasm because I want those new Culture and Court mechanics! Hope this expansion comes out soon!
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Jun 21, 2021 21:31
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Captain Splendid posted:Can't you choose the character when loading a save? That is... A very good point. Can't believe I've never thought of that.
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Jun 21, 2021 21:32
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There is also a mod I use which allows, amongst other things, becoming a random landed child of your previous character upon succession, or the landed child with the highest stat total.
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Jun 21, 2021 21:46
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