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Android Blues posted:Like, this is literally the calibre of stuff, straight from the Wikipedia article: Laughing my rear end off at the idea that one of the indicators of the darkest timeline is Frank Castle being shot to death. Oh no, a world without the Punisher. Truly it is a world without light or hope.
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Jun 15, 2021 14:27
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bessantj posted:One of the things that got me about RUINS was Jean Grey being a prostitute. if it was supposed to be a universe where "everything that can go wrong will go wrong" then why is she a hooker and not say possessed by The Phoenix, then kills off a few billion humans before going into space and killing off billions more lifeforms? She could be at war with the Shi'ar empire and kicking their rear end. Seems a bit worse than what happened. You missed the part where this is a grown up comic for grown ups. No kiddie stuff here bud. This Jean Grey has to sell her body in order to live. Because that's what grown ups want to read and this is for grown ups.
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Jun 15, 2021 14:29
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Thirded.
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Jun 15, 2021 14:37
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bessantj posted:One of the things that got me about RUINS was Jean Grey being a prostitute. if it was supposed to be a universe where "everything that can go wrong will go wrong" then why is she a hooker and not say possessed by The Phoenix, then kills off a few billion humans before going into space and killing off billions more lifeforms? She could be at war with the Shi'ar empire and kicking their rear end. Seems a bit worse than what happened. Yeah, it's a really misogynist subtext that most of the male superheroes in Ruins have elaborate, grim fates based on their powers/backstories going wrong, and then Jean Grey is a prostitute who gets murdered on-panel. Has nothing to do with the character beyond "she's a woman and here is the worst thing that can happen to a woman!".
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Jun 15, 2021 15:10
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Android Blues posted:Yeah, it's a really misogynist subtext Checks notes Warren Ellis, yup
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Jun 15, 2021 15:14
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X-O posted:You missed the part where this is a grown up comic for grown ups. No kiddie stuff here bud. This Jean Grey has to sell her body in order to live. Because that's what grown ups want to read and this is for grown ups. This but in comic form https://youtu.be/S-omCu0A-Hc
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Jun 15, 2021 15:21
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Ruins ain't your DADDY'S Marvel!
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Jun 15, 2021 15:46
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I'm reading through it too, and... 
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Jun 15, 2021 16:05
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bessantj posted:One of the things that got me about RUINS was Jean Grey being a prostitute. if it was supposed to be a universe where "everything that can go wrong will go wrong" then why is she a hooker and not say possessed by The Phoenix, then kills off a few billion humans before going into space and killing off billions more lifeforms? She could be at war with the Shi'ar empire and kicking their rear end. Seems a bit worse than what happened. It's the '90s, sex work is worse than multiple genocides
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Jun 15, 2021 16:18
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Warren Ellis, true seer of the 21st Century, in 2000:quote:Pop culture is darkening again. Accept it and stop whining, or stay at home and continue to attempt to convince your aged mother that you're really not sitting in your stained, crunchy bed fantasising about Betty and Veronica. People who refuse to see what time it is are surplus to requirements. quote:Understand that when you write CAPE GIRL or ZAP BOY, you are not writing for your fondly imagined child audience. It doesn't exist. You are writing for a forty-five-year-old unmarried man living in a one-room apartment who listens to Madonna and is probably masturbating over your work. I want you to hold that image in your head the next time you sit down to create one of these works. Your worst convention-nightmare fan, glopping away as he peers through thick glasses at your drawing of Zoom Woman. He's just giving The People What They Want, you see.
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Jun 15, 2021 16:46
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I love the bizarre slam on Madonna there. Yeah, take that, you Madonna-loving comics nerds! Warren Ellis thinks your taste in music is...I'm not even sure, girly? Fatuous? Incongruous with your gender?
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Jun 15, 2021 16:49
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Rereading Ruins, it definitely feels like Ellis trying to be Kerouac or Hunter S. Thompson but not realising that, while attempting to ritually deface cape comics and destroy some sacred cows, he's actually paying them total homage by demonstrating just how much he cares about seeing these tiny idols torn down.
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Jun 15, 2021 17:00
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So the Jean Grey scene is even dumber and weirder than described... Here's the list of events: - Sheldon is in Washington DC, which is no longer the capital, because President X moved the white house to NY. For... Reasons. - Everywhere around him are deformed homeless people and people in chains (???) - Nick Fury shows up and threatens him, and (I think) Northstar and his sister are randomly there on the street, nearly naked for some reason, with their flesh fused at the elbow - Nick Fury beats up Sheldon even though both of them agree on the same exact thing (everything went wrong and we were on the verge of an age of heroes, etc.) - Nick Fury pulls out a gun and shoots, but it's a fakeout because he actually was shooting a rabid dog that was about to bite Sheldon - Nick Fury literally sits on the bloody corpse of the dog for absolutely no reason - Jean Grey suddenly appears and propositions them for $20 - again, keep in mind that like 30 seconds ago this guy shot a dog and is still currently sitting on its corpse while brandishing a gun - Nick Fury shoots her because I don't know - Nick Fury shoots himself because I don't know Truly Warren Ellis is one of the greats Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 17:05
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Rotten Red Rod posted:So the Jean Grey scene is even dumber and weirder than described... Here's the list of events: I think the implication is that Xavier moved the White House to the X-Mansion so he could experiment on mutants and conduct affairs of state at the same time? Still not sure why Kingpin is the warden of mutant jail. Or why Professor X apparently brandishes his junk to the mutants on a regular basis. Because Ellis, I assume.
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Jun 15, 2021 17:48
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Splint Chesthair posted:I think the implication is that Xavier moved the White House to the X-Mansion so he could experiment on mutants and conduct affairs of state at the same time? Still not sure why Kingpin is the warden of mutant jail. Or why Professor X apparently brandishes his junk to the mutants on a regular basis. Because Ellis, I assume. He moved the white house to New York (as in, moved the actual building, not renamed the X-mansion) and the mutant jail is in Texas, though...?
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Jun 15, 2021 18:02
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Why not just make all the X-Men sex workers? Then he could have called them The Mutants Who Sold Their Bodies For Money.
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Jun 15, 2021 18:24
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Rotten Red Rod posted:- Sheldon is in Washington DC, which is no longer the capital, because President X moved the white house to NY. For... Reasons. This makes sense in a world where "everything went wrong" because in the Marvel universe, NYC is practically the most dangerous place on the drat planet.
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Jun 15, 2021 18:26
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Oh the ending is really funny, by the way, Sheldon reveals he's dying (literally 5 pages before the end) and it's because of Peter Parker infecting him with a mutant virus and Sheldon shook his hand once in the past at some point. His last thought is calling Parker a "contagious little weasel".
Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 18:29
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Haha, well maybe I won't see if I still have those comics in a dusty box somewhere That does remind me that I haven't seen my copy of Marvels for around the same amount of time. I feel like that one at least is probably worth revisiting
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Jun 15, 2021 18:40
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Ruins was one of those ones that I heard about and it sounded like it could be interesting, but then reading the synopsis makes it sound like a complete waste of time? I do like that Hulk body horror though (and yes, I need to read Immortal Hulk, I know). I'm not sure I've read a Warren Ellis comic, there's a bunch I wanted to, like Planetary, but I never got around to it and then everything about him came out so, you know. Edit: I will say, from what I've seen, visually I like Ruins a lot, I like a painterly style that's also not trying to be hyper-realistic. I understand why Alex Ross has a lot of fans, but I have to admit I'm not hugely fond of his art, or at least not for interior art. His covers are great, absolutely. catlord fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jun 15, 2021 |
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Jun 15, 2021 21:39
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His most iconic work is Transmetropolitan, which I'm pretty sure wouldn't hold up as well to a reading today. It's Hunter S. Thompson only he's cooler and edgier and cares more about social issues and blah. Ellis being the writer on the Netflix Castlevania is the main reason I didn't enjoy it at all. (Another reason being the fact that it doesn't have any music from the games. What the gently caress?)
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Jun 15, 2021 21:47
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catlord posted:Ruins was one of those ones that I heard about and it sounded like it could be interesting, but then reading the synopsis makes it sound like a complete waste of time? I do like that Hulk body horror though (and yes, I need to read Immortal Hulk, I know). Yeah, to be clear, the art in Ruins is gorgeous. It's irresistibly good. The writing is extremely dubious, that's all.
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Jun 15, 2021 21:51
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catlord posted:Ruins was one of those ones that I heard about and it sounded like it could be interesting, but then reading the synopsis makes it sound like a complete waste of time? I do like that Hulk body horror though (and yes, I need to read Immortal Hulk, I know). I was a big fan of his StormWatch run, dovetailing into the first year of The Authority. Transmetropolitan had me until it became more plot-driven. Not sure how that stuff holds up today but I still think Planetary is great. The end doesn't feel as abrupt as it did when there was like 2-3 years between it and the rest of the series.
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Jun 15, 2021 21:55
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If you can get past Warren Ellis' personal issues (and I completely understand if people can't) Transmetropolitan holds up better than you'd think, but Planetary is probably his best work and the one I'd recommend to someone interested in reading him.
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Jun 15, 2021 21:57
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Is it short for Warren Ellis Ruins the Marvel Universe?
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Jun 15, 2021 21:58
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Ellis being the writer on the Netflix Castlevania is the main reason I didn't enjoy it at all. (Another reason being the fact that it doesn't have any music from the games. What the gently caress?) Oh, that's right. I've watched some Castlevania and I do remember reading the Planetary/Batman crossover. I have to admit, I keep on getting him and Garth Ennis mixed up.
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Jun 15, 2021 22:03
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Skwirl posted:If you can get past Warren Ellis' personal issues (and I completely understand if people can't) Transmetropolitan holds up better than you'd think, but Planetary is probably his best work and the one I'd recommend to someone interested in reading him. I could never recommend Planetary to anyone. The main plot beats are all very predictable and once you've figured out what Ellis is pastiching this issue, the individual stories are as well. It also completely fails to stick the landing. The only selling point for it is John Casaday's art, which is excellent, but if I want to read a comic by an rear end in a top hat with art by Casaday I'll read Whedon's Astonishing X-Men. Transmet suffers badly from a mediocre central plotline and far too many scatological and/or sexual jokes that will make you think "Hang on ... was the writer Ellis or Ennis?" But it's at its very best when it steps aside from that and takes a little time to explore the world it's set in. And it absolutely does stick the landing.
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Jun 15, 2021 22:40
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Yeah Transmet holds up. It's not perfect, but it wasn't then either.
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Jun 15, 2021 22:44
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Ah, that's good. I just assumed it didn't hold up because nothing ever seems to anymore. I remember it wasn't nearly as nihilistic as Thompson's work, which is a plus.
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Jun 15, 2021 23:10
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Ah, that's good. I just assumed it didn't hold up because nothing ever seems to anymore. I remember it wasn't nearly as nihilistic as Thompson's work, which is a plus. It's a pastiche of Thompson and most of Thompson's poo poo holds up. I will say the 2016 election sorta made Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72 seem a bit passé. I used to read it every 4 years starting in '96 and it seemed relevant every time. That was the first year it didn't.
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Jun 15, 2021 23:42
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Oh yeah, Thompson's stuff does hold up, it's just really loving depressing to me now.
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Jun 15, 2021 23:46
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Batman/Planetary was really good, and his Moon Knight run kicked a lot of rear end. Unfortunately, with all their negativity and edginess, people like Ellis, Millar, and Ennis are three of the most famous modern comic creators.
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Jun 16, 2021 02:28
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Rotten Red Rod posted:So the Jean Grey scene is even dumber and weirder than described... Here's the list of events: Also Nick Fury's a cannibal for some reason.
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Jun 18, 2021 08:51
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The idea's meant to be that (complete with Fury referring to Cap as just "America") the scene is a gonzo repudiation of American foreign policy. The big national icon is a cannibal and his war hero buddy is a rapacious monster interested in random violence. Metaphor. It just doesn't land because everything around it is such a cynical, stupid romp through Ellis' attempts to desecrate pop culture media properties, it's like ten seconds of J.P. Donleavy in the middle of an hour of Robot Chicken with grime on the lens.
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Jun 18, 2021 09:30
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Also like, even in the middle of Ellis attempting to do "Nick Fury is the Comedian from Watchmen" he can't resist having Jean Grey show up as a prostitute. Truly dreadful stuff.
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Jun 18, 2021 09:32
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the comedian was already nick fury though 
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Jun 18, 2021 12:28
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Open Marriage Night posted:Batman/Planetary was really good, and his Moon Knight run kicked a lot of rear end.
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Jun 18, 2021 12:41
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Edge & Christian posted:Millar I'll grant you with some provisions, Ennis I guess had Preacher, but what puts Ellis on any sort of list, much less Top Three? Are we ranking Superhero/Superhero Adjacent Writers Based Solely on How Often Castlevania Fans mention them? Is "most famous" a list of several dozen people? I think what makes them contemporaries (though Millar came a lot later) is that Ellis and Ennis both made a bit of a career on cynical dark humoured comics, both have a bit of a reputation of "real superheroes are nothing but perverts and sociopath" takes on superheroes etc. They have different styles but they both like to show "what real heroes would really be like" every now and again (just look at Supergod, The Boys, The Pro, Authority etc).
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Jun 18, 2021 13:51
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Madkal posted:I think what makes them contemporaries (though Millar came a lot later) is that Ellis and Ennis both made a bit of a career on cynical dark humoured comics, both have a bit of a reputation of "real superheroes are nothing but perverts and sociopath" takes on superheroes etc. Ennis's first Big Two project (Hellblazer) came in 1991, and Ellis and Millar's were in 1994. They're very much contemporaries. I guess you could argue Millar's first "hit" came about five years later, if you wanted to? You can even throw out vast swaths of creators: let's pretend Moore/Gaiman/Morrison/Miller/Lee/Liefeld/McFarlane are somehow pre-"modern", let's pretend comic strips and cartoonists don't count, definitely restrict it to the US English Language market, discount anyone who made their name outside of comic books. If you restrict it down to that, I'm still not even sure how Ellis would crack the Top 10, or arguably the top 20. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Jun 18, 2021 |
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Jun 18, 2021 14:05
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I didn't realise that Warren Ellis was this bad. I read some of his stuff back in the day, and really enjoyed it. I guess I missed most of his dumpster fire work (or was too young and dumb to realise). Garth Ennis I noticed. But he's such an odd fish, a genuinely good and talented writer at times, but constantly trotting out the same few characters to do the same few things. We all mock the that one face Steve Dillon kept drawing, but he was such a perfect match for Ennis because his writing is that same face. I just finished reading the first few Punisher Max arcs and, yup, there's that edge with characters openly talking about the Terrible Thing That Was Done To Them that they have no issue sharing with strangers, and Openly Thirsty For Prostitutes (men) and Cock (women) characters. Nick Fury three times talking about the hookers he likes/has waiting for him to the generals he's supposed to be dealing with as, you know, a professional soldier. If those books had any more edge Frank Castle could murder a mob boss with them. I know it's not the thread for this, but I gotta moan somewhere about how odd Preacher is as a run. 25ish issues that were edgy but good as hell. Then about 20+ issues that were pure garbage filler with the main character just sitting around in a small town dealing with mommy issues. Then an "eh, I guess" ending arc to tie things up after they realised they couldn't milk it any longer. Too this day I don't know if I should recommend that book to people as it's a great-awful-meh three acts, and yet it was how he made a big name for himself and was his gateway into edgelord superhero stuff. But Preacher had a line where a fallen angel was describing a demon he fell in love with: "hers was the beauty of blood in the moonlight, of blades in an alleyway, of battlefield screams" 20 years later that line still stands out as just utter perfection. In the last arc of the Punisher Max run I borrowed, there were pages of prose written as pages from a memoir on the Vietnam war incident that created Punisher. Normally a wall of text in a comic book is something to skim over, but these were very well written in both content and style. He's got talent, absolutely he does, but I feel he just needs someone to point out he doesn't need yet another woman casually telling the men around her about all the dicks she's going to suck later so can they please hurry things along.
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Jun 18, 2021 14:20
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