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Warpers are probably the cheapest late game resource, once I have green science I set up a cube to warper factory and turn my “distance to use warp” setting in my towers to 0.5 AU Really you can get away with the lens recipe if you commit enough to it
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Jun 15, 2021 18:16
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I'm a single planet, single product guy I've found. I don't like centralized smelting and manufacturing. In my current game I spawned in a system with a lava planet, an ice giant with a 2nd Gobi moon. The first chance I got I moved all green motor production to the lava planet and setup a yellow chip plant on the gobi, each of them is using the on planet resources (mostly - the gobi imports iron from the lava because it has to) all the way from raw materials to smelters to assemblers to finished product. Once I got my warpers setup I immediately went to the nearest system with sulfur and setup a titanium alloy plant on it. I prefer this method because I'm not having to manage tons of towers importing/exporting ore to a central location, I never, ever have to worry about how many smelters I have on some other remote planet because I run my smelters on the same planet as thing I'm manufacturing (The same goes for manufacturing the common intermediate products like magnets gears and boards), you gain no benefit throughput wise from shipping in the ore over the smelted product in the 1 to 1 recipes (which you need the most of), but most of all - I find central smelting and manufacturing to be intensely boring. Give me semi-bespoke factories (The blueprint mod can't come quick enough for my play style) any day of the week over laying the same pattern of belts running between two towers with a line of smelters or assemblers between them repeated ad naseum until the planet is full. Probably way overdoing it in the process because I won't want to come back and lay down another half dozen belts of iron ingots anytime soon. I use this pattern still for smelters in particular because I find my brain doesn't like mixing smelters and assemblers, but it's all on the same planet. Then I name the planet something like "yellow chip factory" and forget about it.
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Jun 15, 2021 21:26
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Rapidly reaching the conclusion we didn't need a tier 2 smelter, we needed a tier 2 chem plant. Bloody huge machines that all the recipes are slow as hell on...
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Jun 16, 2021 02:53
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We needed a tier 2 smelter, if for no other reason than if we can magically assemble things faster with better materials it would follow that we can smelt things better and more efficiently too, without needing a super rare resource to do it. Same goes for mining. We have solved the mysteries of the universe and built a giant sphere around a star to collect its energy, but our mining technology is... pedestrian.
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Jun 16, 2021 04:40
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Should clarify I meant in terms of priorities. Smelters should have an upgrade too, but they're already constrained by belts at a much smaller footprint (and effort level) compared to chemical plant recipes. Ideally we eventually see upgrades for most everything.
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Jun 16, 2021 04:53
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Ice Fist posted:Same goes for mining. We have solved the mysteries of the universe and built a giant sphere around a star to collect its energy, but our mining technology is... pedestrian. mining has an entire infinite tech line devoted to upgrading it though
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Jun 16, 2021 07:25
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"Mk[N+1] Machine"-type buildings that work the same as the previous tier but faster are pointless busywork and the worst obsession in all the Factorio mods. Just give me a single tier of building and replace the upgrades with tech that upgrades the speed and appearance of that base building.
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Jun 16, 2021 07:57
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Xerophyte posted:"Mk[N+1] Machine"-type buildings that work the same as the previous tier but faster are pointless busywork and the worst obsession in all the Factorio mods. Just give me a single tier of building and replace the upgrades with tech that upgrades the speed and appearance of that base building. agreed! worst case scenario, some sort of building like the space elevator in Satisfactory where you have to feed it X materials to upgrade everything at once
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Jun 16, 2021 08:16
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The worst part of the assemblers is that the mk1 isn’t even base speed. It’s .75 making you need to do extra math right out the gate.
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Jun 16, 2021 08:28
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otoh i've finished two runs without doing any maths at all. if you run out of a raw resource just get more of it. if you're not manufacturing something fast enough, upgrade your manufactories or build more of them. if your belts are backing up, upgrade them. 
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Jun 16, 2021 10:37
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Wafflecopper posted:mining has an entire infinite tech line devoted to upgrading it though But nothing to replace the busy work and tedium that is mining a planet's resources. Wafflecopper posted:otoh i've finished two runs without doing any maths at all. if you run out of a raw resource just get more of it. if you're not manufacturing something fast enough, upgrade your manufactories or build more of them. if your belts are backing up, upgrade them. I did ALOT of math my first run through, which I found out was pointless and now I just use the calculator and it's almost always "how many things do I need to fill this belt"
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Jun 16, 2021 13:43
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Mostly I think I work it out in terms of how many buildings to use a whole number of belts. Cause, like, It's pretty easy to look at the recipe and see, like, I need 3 of this to make 1 of this, so I make 3 belts of input, 1 belt of output, and then from there I might as well also multiply out how many buildings that needs to work, and then large scale I just need to think "I have x belts demand of this/y belts supply." I save the guesstimating for ore and power cells and warpers.
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Jun 16, 2021 14:12
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The only thing I really bother with ratios on are the extremely fast products like circuit boards and EM coils or stuff that devours a particular resource like casimir crystals. Almost everything else can be the same 2/3 mat template, unless you are trying to max output from a single ILS. Even then it's prohibitive; you might want to max out plane filters because they always feel like a bottleneck but I think it's something like 180 mkIII assemblers to fill one belt. The real limiter is output belts, you're going to back up by putting more than 30/s stuff on an output belt than you will from a bad ratio of input.
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Jun 16, 2021 14:37
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zoux posted:Even then it's prohibitive; you might want to max out plane filters because they always feel like a bottleneck but I think it's something like 180 mkIII assemblers to fill one belt. Reason #??? why I also hope they don't actually go forward with the current "accelerant" they have planned as a beacon substitute. "Use a consumable resource on every ingredient for each step to speed up your machines" is approximately hell.
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Jun 16, 2021 15:05
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From context I'm assuming a beacon is a building that increases production speed within a certain radius?
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Jun 16, 2021 15:23
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Beacons in the Factorio sense, which are (for those who haven't done Factorio at all) 3x3 buildings with a 9x9 area of effect* that give bonuses to the machines partially or fully in that AoE. Factorio lets you choose "more speed for extra power", "less power usage for no downside"**, or "extra products for slower speed and extra power". (They stack, too; I eventually reached a standard of 5 beacons to a factory thanks to tiling, with the one factory replacing several.) It's the reason Factorio megafactories can exist; without them the updates/second get bogged down processing mountains of machines all at once. DSP's weird GPU processing and relatively smaller scale in terms of individual factory elements does some work to mitigate that, but it doesn't mitigate the time aspects, both "how long does it take to produce x" and far more concerning to players, "how long does it take to set up x". The proposed alternative in DSP that's in the unavailable "accelerant" research is just a thing you send ingredients through and the next step is faster. Strictly belt limited and requires continuous resource supply that would be even more annoying than unmodded warper distribution. *Factorio sizes are similar enough to DSP that this pretty much works as a 1:1 comparison **Unlike DSP, power is basically free past the early game in Factorio due to the unlimited space + the high yield of either solar tiles or nuclear reactors, so no one really uses this SkyeAuroline fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 15:41
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SkyeAuroline posted:Reason #??? why I hope we'll get a beacon substitute sometime soon. Would solve most of these issues, actually. That's the plan for that accelerant feature? I haven't been keeping abreast of it enough so I for some reason thought it was mecha energy/speed/done related. I don't know if I actually mind that idea all that much, although I'd want to know what the recipes of the accelerants are. But that's me. I enjoy complexity and the idea of figuring out how to feed in an accelerant into some of my designs is exciting. I especially like it if it ends up costing some of the more underused resources like coal and oil, which is what I'm going to guess. Would be a really nice way to get rid of a hydrogen surplus too.
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Jun 16, 2021 15:44
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Ice Fist posted:That's the plan for that accelerant feature? I haven't been keeping abreast of it enough so I for some reason thought it was mecha energy/speed/done related. Datamined 3 months ago. 
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Jun 16, 2021 15:46
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Yeah I'll probably just not use those. Like the thing with the advanced smelters is it's just going to let you put 15 smelters on a belt instead of 30, so all it saves you is space. It's a bigger deal for assemblers because when you get access to the mkIIs you're still bound to one system but by the time you get unipolar magnets, space isn't an issue anymore. One mkII "upgrade" that is worthwhile is this mkII miner mod that creates a higher tier of miner for [mkI miner + Ti+processor+particle container]. Placing miners is the worst mechanic in the game, and this offers an expanded cone that means you can basically hit 30/s with no more than 4 miners on a node in your home system, and on farther systems I can usually get 2 full ore belts from just four miners on a single node (depending on your vein exploitation progress). Most of the time you can do this by placing in the four cardinal directions, very little need to try and place the miner juuuuust right to get that one extra node bit. I think the recipe is actually a little overtuned compared to the mkII assembler recipe. The mod version is fine but I do hope they recognize that the mining mechanic in the game isn't fun and either make it less intensive or add a native upscaled miner into the game itself.
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Jun 16, 2021 15:57
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Yeah, the MkII miner is definitely nice. Switched over to using some on my most recent run. Thankfully the one or two times I've accidentally launched via Steam instead of the modded copy didn't seem to break them... I mostly care about something beacon/accelerant-esque for the things that turn into huge farms with no way to build "smarter". Like you said, there's no answer to plane filters except "just build a huge factory of the exact same thing lmao". Same with chemical refining and a few other things. Assemblers and smelters I can at least tuck higher-tier ones in to reduce actual time spent on it, but not so much with recipes that plain can't be adjusted that far or aren't practical to. Those turn into solved problems fast and it's unfortunate.
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Jun 16, 2021 16:19
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Spray seems worth it for certain recipes. 100% speed increase means you're halving the energy cost of the recipe. Of course it also has its own energy and material cost for upkeep, so I'm not excited to do it, and it's a bunch of math to figure out whether I'm actually doing anything useful for a particular recipe.
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Jun 16, 2021 17:48
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From reddit: lmao at casimir crystals. Unipolar particle containers aren't any better - I actually don't think that recipe is very good.
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Jun 16, 2021 18:14
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Dr. Stab posted:Spray seems worth it for certain recipes. 100% speed increase means you're halving the energy cost of the recipe. Of course it also has its own energy and material cost for upkeep, so I'm not excited to do it, and it's a bunch of math to figure out whether I'm actually doing anything useful for a particular recipe. Napkin math that may be totally wrong since I'm running off just the recipes: for a single belt of 30/s of one ingredient, maintaining Mk3 accelerant is costing you 18 casimir crystals, 12 organic crystals, and 12 coal per second that the belt runs at full speed, with 84 assembler mk2s needed just to keep the actual accelerant produced due to multi-second craft times. Add in the infrastructure for the casimir crystals and you're looking at hundreds of assemblers and a huge draw on resources just to reduce some power usage; that's being charitable and saying we aren't manufacturing the organic crystals, too. Tier 1 accelerant is cheap as poo poo and an obvious answer till coal runs out, tier 2 is maybe debatably useful - tier 3 is so ridiculously expensive because of those casimir crystals I can't imagine using it on much of anything. e: I also wouldn't use the unipolar particle containers. Just save it for the nonconsumable smelters I guess.
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Jun 16, 2021 18:15
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zoux posted:From reddit: Excessive demand on a single resource is pretty easy to fix with vertical layers of belts, although it's a lot more elegant with the tiny splitters mod.
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Jun 16, 2021 18:25
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zoux posted:From reddit: Blorange posted:Excessive demand on a single resource is pretty easy to fix with vertical layers of belts, although it's a lot more elegant with the tiny splitters mod. This. I just finished building a 30/s factory of yellow chips and had to do some vertical belt stacking. You can also approach this problem by having additional towers "refresh" the inputs periodically along the line. I avoid sorters like the plague because I discovered that there is a tiny amount of overhead associated with their use that can back up the belts feeding into them and I assume even the mod has the same issue. This is only really applicable when you're building factories specifically to max out belts.
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Jun 16, 2021 21:18
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Lads, aesthetics matter.
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Jun 16, 2021 22:09
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zoux posted:Lads, aesthetics matter. It’s hard to notice belt stacking if you’re doing it right unless you look real close.
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Jun 16, 2021 23:14
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Still hoping they lean into other mega projects eventually instead of just 'mk.x' buildings. Need a use for all that dyson power.
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Jun 16, 2021 23:17
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Rynoto posted:Still hoping they lean into other mega projects eventually instead of just 'mk.x' buildings. Need a use for all that dyson power. Is it time for pitching random and/or dumb ideas for directions to take new buildings in?
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Jun 16, 2021 23:20
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SkyeAuroline posted:Is it time for pitching random and/or dumb ideas for directions to take new buildings in? gently caress off
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Jun 16, 2021 23:22
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... I'm asking if you want to hear that or not. I have thoughts about a few things I would still like to see on that front but that may not actually fit the direction the game is taking. Or I can just not, that's cool too.
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Jun 16, 2021 23:33
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SkyeAuroline posted:**Unlike DSP, power is basically free past the early game in Factorio due to the unlimited space + the high yield of either solar tiles or nuclear reactors, so no one really uses this Power is basically free, but pollution also directly scales with a building's power consumption, so they do get used when biters are a problem (like in deathworld settings)
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Jun 16, 2021 23:41
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SkyeAuroline posted:... I'm asking if you want to hear that or not. I have thoughts about a few things I would still like to see on that front but that may not actually fit the direction the game is taking. I would like to hear them
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Jun 17, 2021 00:13
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zoux posted:I would like to hear them Some thoughts offhand, then. Not all of these are "megastructures" but they do fit the late-game mold:
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Jun 17, 2021 00:34
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SkyeAuroline posted:... I'm asking if you want to hear that or not. I have thoughts about a few things I would still like to see on that front but that may not actually fit the direction the game is taking. I'm sorry  I thought you were just going off about people talking about random things again. I feel awful now.SkyeAuroline posted:[*]Getting into actual megastructures, I'd like to see "warp gates" or similar be a thing. This may or may not be because I hate the spaceflight part of DSP (thank god for Cruise Assist autotargeting and cutting warpers when appropriate), but also would be nice for saving time in travel. Compatibility with belts optional. This is the type of poo poo I'd love wholly.
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Jun 17, 2021 00:39
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SkyeAuroline posted:[*]I want to do something with the black hole in my cluster but I don't know what Maybe a black hole research station that directly produces white cubes but has to be powered via antimatter rods delivered by logistics?
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Jun 17, 2021 00:48
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Rynoto posted:I'm sorry Tone over text is hard, tone over asynchronous text is harder. No hard feelings. If anything I go off on random tangents here plenty.
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Jun 17, 2021 00:53
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SkyeAuroline posted:Some thoughts offhand, then. Not all of these are "megastructures" but they do fit the late-game mold: Yeah there's a lot they could do with actual type 3 civ poo poo, like moving planets between systems or changing orbits, or traits like you said. Even changing the luminosity of stars.
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Jun 17, 2021 00:56
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Making warpers more expensive but creating a Warp Gate that uses a bunch of Strange matter (and a bunch of power, only really feasible if one end has at least a mid-sized dyson swarm powering it) for warp-free FTL transfer would be awesome. As would a Black Hole Bomb setup which uses slightly different processes to basically build a visually distinct version of a dyson sphere over a black hole.
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Jun 17, 2021 00:58
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Oh yeah, as I continue to spread out in my new save in search of one particular thing, I remembered the one other thing I need. A bigger and better iron source. Eternally drowning in my lack of iron more than anything else, even when in casimir hell. (And lack of oil processing facilities, which is its own whole can of worms, but I've complained about that at length.)
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Jun 17, 2021 02:28
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