|
SMEGMA_MAIL posted:That’s what I mean, all but maybe a dozen will end up with some sort of parole or a year or two. That’s a very light sentence for trying to violently overthrow the government because the people voted the wrong way. These folks are getting charged with federal crimes and while the sentences might be shorter than expected, there isn’t parole in the fed system. You get 3 years, you serve 3 years.
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 16:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 06:18 |
|
|
Naramyth posted:These folks are getting charged with federal crimes and while the sentences might be shorter than expected, there isn’t parole in the fed system. You get 3 years, you serve 3 years. I think they meant probation of a year or two.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 16:15
|
|
|
Always thought the Pipe Hitters Union was a mil-motorcyle club. The chapter near where I used to live had several poc members and they were always doing fundraisers for charities at local biker bars.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 16:20
|
|
|
Resisting arrest: punishable by death Overthrowing the United States: here’s probation bro, enjoy the beach this summer.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 16:33
|
|
|
Defenestrategy posted:Yea, as much as I hate to admit it, rounding up everyone that had a maga hat on within three blocks of the capitol on that day and throwing the book at them for treason while cathartic, it'd probably do nothing more than give more propaganda ammo about the PeRsEcUtiOn oF CoNsErVatIves and in exchange karen gets slightly more inconvenienced until their lawyers plead them down anyway. They don't need actual real life events to use as ammo. They literally just invent poo poo all the time so worrying about ThE oPtIcS is dumb as gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 16:33
|
|
|
boop the snoot posted:Resisting arrest: punishable by death "We'd tell you to not leave the country, but hell, Cancun is just Atlantic City for white people with more discretionary income."
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 16:36
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:They don't need actual real life events to use as ammo. They literally just invent poo poo all the time so worrying about ThE oPtIcS is dumb as gently caress. Some dumbass in the back of the crowd isn't gonna see the gallows even if DoJ wanted them strung up for treason. So they walk and end up on fox or onn or what ever the gently caress saying "the gubermint tried to kill me, they're persecuting us". So great, you've generated some amount of martyrs who can go on podcasts, news shows, what ever the gently caress yelling about how they where unfairly persecuted by the government and they'll be after the rest of you sooner enough, they get money from the grift, and the rest of us get gently caress all except some hick who might end up radicalized because of it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 16:42
|
|
Defenestrategy posted:
I challenge you to find a time this doesn’t apply to Republicans in my adult life (I’m 33) You seriously could have made this post randomly throughout several decades.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 16:45
|
|
|
Defenestrategy posted:Some dumbass in the back of the crowd isn't gonna see the gallows even if DoJ wanted them strung up for treason. So they walk and end up on fox or onn or what ever the gently caress saying "the gubermint tried to kill me, they're persecuting us". Okay. They are already going to do this.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 16:49
|
|
|
Defenestrategy posted:Some dumbass in the back of the crowd isn't gonna see the gallows even if DoJ wanted them strung up for treason. So they walk and end up on fox or onn or what ever the gently caress saying "the gubermint tried to kill me, they're persecuting us". It really doesn’t matter. Persecution complexes are divorced from reality. A concentration camp guard would tell you that he was a victim of Jewish oppression while machine gunning prisoners for giggles.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 16:50
|
|
|
Defenestrategy posted:Some dumbass in the back of the crowd isn't gonna see the gallows even if DoJ wanted them strung up for treason. So they walk and end up on fox or onn or what ever the gently caress saying "the gubermint tried to kill me, they're persecuting us". But do you agree it would be much more pleasing if we could adapt defenestration as a strategy?
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 16:53
|
|
|
ThisIsJohnWayne posted:But do you agree it would be much more pleasing if we could adapt defenestration as a strategy? the russians used a...uhh...window
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 17:13
|
|
brains posted:the russians used a...uhh...window FFS for the last time he shot HIMSELF twice in the back of the head and then put himself in that duffel bag.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 17:14
|
|
|
The best way to combat fascism is by preaching unity while far right psychos decimate democracy. History says so.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 17:18
|
|
|
Legit breakin leaders and such can get their comeuppance, but I’m not huge on the feds and other cops going hog wild with massive punitive action against people over even riots and the like. Would prefer to generally see less people legally screwed for life by the cops.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 17:29
|
|
mlmp08 posted:Legit breakin leaders and such can get their comeuppance, but I’m not huge on the feds and other cops going hog wild with massive punitive action against people over even riots and the like. They were trying to overthrow the country.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 17:33
|
|
boop the snoot posted:They were trying to overthrow the country.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 17:47
|
|
|
boop the snoot posted:They were trying to overthrow the government and replace it with a fascist strongman.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 17:52
|
|
|
boop the snoot posted:They were trying to overthrow the country. That’s why I said go for the most legit targets. And you kinda gotta prove that in court, which is hard, whereas proving they were breaking in and assaulting and what not is easier. Rounding up everyone who was present at all? Nah. They fuckin’ suuuuuuck, and many in that crowd are dangerous criminals, but don’t default to “More cops broadly interpreting political threats fro crowds please, sir!”
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 17:58
|
|
|
mlmp08 posted:Legit breakin leaders and such can get their comeuppance, but I’m not huge on the feds and other cops going hog wild with massive punitive action against people over even riots and the like. Generally agree with you, but gently caress that. This was an attempted overthrow of our democracy. Not my fault if Karen is too insulated to realize that while she's taking selfie in the capitol.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 17:59
|
|
mlmp08 posted:That’s why I said go for the most legit targets. And you kinda gotta prove that in court, which is hard, whereas proving they were breaking in and assaulting and what not is easier. Rounding up everyone who was present at all? Nah. If you participated in the insurrection you are a legit target for taking part in trying to overthrow the entire country. There are no small parts in this one. Sorry. I support cops actually doing their jobs. As far as I know my tax dollars are still paying for them to work so we might as well get them to actually do some justice. For clarification, is your issue with giving the criminal justice system power to put people in jail/prison who tried to overthrow the country, or is your issue simply with people who tried to overthrow the country going to jail/prison? boop the snoot fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jun 16, 2021 |
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:00
|
|
|
Build a whole new federal correction facility to house all these idiots. One of those med security ones, call it a camp. Have FEMA run it 
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:03
|
|
|
boop the snoot posted:If you participated in the insurrection you are a legit target for taking part in trying to overthrow the entire country. There are no small parts in this one. Sorry. Yeah, the problem is defining “participated in the insurrection.” Some rear end in a top hat on the lawn taking selfies after people bust down the barriers? Maybe not. Someone going from office to office of the senate collecting “trophies” of papers and stuff?. Bare minimum criminal charges. Someone coordinating to find a specific lawmaker? Extremely different and more dangerous actor.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:03
|
|
mlmp08 posted:Yeah, the problem is defining “participated in the insurrection.” If someone busts down a barrier you still don’t have a right to cross that line. The barrier still exists even if it’s not physically there because it was removed by people trying to overthrow the country. That’s participation and treason. Prison.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:06
|
|
|
To be clear I have no issue with all of them being charged with what ever, but the Justice system as is isn't gonna convict on treason for the vast majority of these dinguses and they'd walk free and clear. Pursuing lesser charges for the majority of them will get them smacked with something, this is the same country that let the people who occupied that federal park in the west basically walk. Outside of tarp ghost and that other dude who got killed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:07
|
|
|
If someone breaks into my house to kill me, the guy taking selfies on my front lawn is an accomplice imho.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:09
|
|
|
boop the snoot posted:For clarification, is your issue with giving the criminal justice system power to put people in jail/prison who tried to overthrow the country, or is your issue simply with people who tried to overthrow the country going to jail/prison? My issue is that I think the onus is on the government to prove crimes. And I don’t think we should encourage the idea that cops simply get to decide when a political actor is guilty of attempting to overthrow government without proving it the hard and lawful way. Make cops and DAs do their jobs. They have to prove these things. Let’s not cheer for more cop power to imprison political dissidents. There are 100% plenty of Jan 6 participants who need to go to prison. But it is not so simple as taking a photo of the whole crowd and going “yeah, they all look guilty of overthrowing the government to me.” That’s the same strongman instinct used to crush infinitely more legitimate protests based on a few bad actors or provocateurs. Two bootlickings don’t make a right.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:11
|
|
|
Defenestrategy posted:To be clear I have no issue with all of them being charged with what ever, but the Justice system as is isn't gonna convict on treason for the vast majority of these dinguses and they'd walk free and clear. Pursuing lesser charges for the majority of them will get them smacked with something, Yeah basically. And treason legally means something. And it’s famously a hard charge to make stick!
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:12
|
|
|
gently caress 'em, it was an attempt to overthrow the government. Bash some fash, put the shitheads in a hole and throw away the key. I'm open to the conversation on our prison industry being poo poo and the conditions being changed, even for these folks, because that should apply across the board our system is hosed up six ways from Sunday. The loss of freedom and separation from society though? gently caress them, it was an attempt to overthrow the government. Many, many things in our lovely system deserve attempts at rehabilitation. This is not one of them. No second chances for a coup. Every Karen and Cletus that took a private jet down to play Babby's First Coup needs to be made an example of for everyone else. I get that that mindset is used and abused by our system to lock away people in entirely different circumstances and who it has no impact on because they're doing crimes for different reasons, so harsh punishments have little to no deterrence effect in those situations. I disagree that that situation applies here. Every white bread mother fucker thinking they're on the right side of history and privileged enough to feel they won't suffer any consequences needs to have the lesson hammered the gently caress home that you don't get to play at destabilizing the entire federal government for funsies and put some actual fear of consequences in to them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:18
|
|
|
This nation is so hard right that the right wingers can literally attempt to violently reject the results of a election and people will turn out in droves arguing for clemency or even their innocence. We are hosed
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:19
|
|
 So you were at a rally called "Stop the Steal" that formed on the day the US Senate was set to certify the presidential election? yes And in this crowd there were chants of "Hang Mike Pence" as well as several other politicians who were involved in the certification? yes And you saw the crowd erect a gallows and at numerous places break down police barricades / push back police who were trying to prevent entry into the capitol building? yes So you followed this crowd through the barricade line, walking over broken glass through doors that had been forced open into the capitol building? yes Also, you did this while congress was in session, causing them to delay their lawful duties. yes ok well, maybe some probation and don't do it again.e: imo anyone who entered the capitol should be turbo hosed in terms of prison time.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:20
|
|
|
FrozenVent posted:Build a whole new federal correction facility to house all these idiots. One of those med security ones, call it a camp. so long as it has a gender studies curriculum
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:42
|
|
|
Every single person that stepped foot inside the Capitol on the 6th should be facing an insurrection charge. Let the prosecutors work on the punishment based on what they did inside.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:54
|
|
|
It’s pretty right wing to argue that in response to right wing crimes, we should expand police powers and degrade the 5A to attribute guilt by association to all protest or riot attendees as long as the cops can prove there were some really heinous actors in attendance in the crowds who did some real bad crimes. A lot of the Jan 6 folks should be facing a lot worse than they likely ever will. And it is very good that a few who will be examples are the type who normally consider themselves above consequences. But guilt by association is bad and un-American. And it can and has been be used to shut down infinitely more legitimate protests against the government. Hell, weren’t Texans being ITT blamed for their plight for not protesting hard enough against the TX legislature over ERCOT a couple months back? That’s the kind of action that would get just run the gently caress over if we embraced GBA and gave cops and DAs free ride to declare an entire body of activists to be as bad as the worst actors among them. Hence example number whatever of why it is hard to fight fascists exploiting a liberal democracy while retaining a liberal democracy. It’s hard.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:59
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1405200041803980800
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 18:59
|
|
|
fknlo posted:Every single person that stepped foot inside the Capitol on the 6th should be facing an insurrection charge. Let the prosecutors work on the punishment based on what they did inside. That makes sense to me, barring legitimate press. Meets some basic elements. Inside the premises is a hell of an escalation and likely meets the elements more easily than “showed up outside at some point during the event.”
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 19:02
|
|
|
https://www.lawfareblog.com/sea-change-counterterrorism A Sea Change in Counterterrorism Editor’s Note: Even before the attempted insurrection at the Capitol on Jan. 6, the threat of domestic extremism was painfully clear, with terrorist attacks, assaults on minorities and other violence eclipsing the threat posed by jihadist groups such as the Islamic State. Recognizing this danger, the Biden administration will soon release a new, unprecedented strategy document for fighting domestic terrorism. Carly Gordenstein and Seamus Hughes of George Washington University’s Program on Extremism detail the numerous changes the administration is already making and argue that these are important steps forward in the fight against domestic extremism. - Daniel Byman Although the speculation surrounding the potential congressional commission to investigate the Jan. 6 Capitol siege makes for attention-grabbing headlines, behind-the-scenes work is being done to update and expand the national security apparatus in order to better address the threat of domestic terrorism. According to senior officials, the Biden administration is on the cusp of releasing a first-of-its-kind strategy to counter domestic terrorism in the United States. The document is the result of the White House’s more than 140-day review of previous counterterrorism efforts. It will, in many ways, simply codify significant and lasting policy changes to countering domestic terrorism that have already occurred in the past five months. The question of both the size and the scope of the domestic extremism threat has faced a whirlwind of politicization for more than a decade. Consequently, it has not been met with a formidable, comprehensive strategy to counter it until now. The Biden administration’s efforts represent a sea change in the way the U.S. government handles domestic extremism. Since Jan. 6, the federal government has been updating threat assessments, restructuring offices and increasing resources to combat domestic violent extremism. For the first time in two decades, domestic terrorism, and not jihadism, is at the forefront of counterterrorism policymakers’ minds. Reassessing the Threat While awaiting the findings of the White House review, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) released a first-of-its-kind assessment in early March on the heightened threat of domestic terrorism. The research concluded that racially motivated violent extremists (RMVEs) and militia violent extremists (MVEs) are the most likely to carry out lethal attacks as lone actors or small cells, writing that “RMVEs [are] most likely to conduct mass-casualty attacks against civilians and MVEs typically target[] law enforcement and government personnel and facilities.” Notably, the report called attention to the threat of domestic violent extremist lone actors. These individuals pose a significant challenge to law enforcement as they can radicalize independently, move discreetly and easily obtain weapons for attacks—all while avoiding criminal thresholds necessary for law enforcement to interdict and arrest them. Following the ODNI analysis, the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) put out a joint report in May containing a strategic intelligence assessment and data on domestic terrorism. The review found that, although domestic terrorism-related deaths have been increasing every year since 2015, the FBI has been arresting fewer domestic terrorism perpetrators annually. Additionally, the FBI-DHS report noted that the most lethal and common form of domestic violent extremism (DVE) is carried out by white supremacist groups but that other ideological groups contribute to domestic terrorism as well. Single-issue extremists—including those concerned with abortion, animal rights and the environment, as well as other ideological extremists—contribute to recorded incidents of domestic terrorism. This report was the first joint intelligence assessment and data report about domestic terrorism and provided much needed transparency into the investigations, law enforcement processes and scope of the threat. Finally, both the Department of Defense and the Department of Homeland Security are looking within, focusing on extremism in their workforces. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin has already ordered several measures to combat extremism and established a working group to assess how these measures are being implemented and what other objectives the Defense Department should undertake. The group has begun meeting and is expected to release a report on its recommendations by mid-July. The Defense Department is also working to update its definition of extremism and improve transition instructions about the dangers posed by extremist groups for individuals leaving the military. These groups often try to recruit former service members on account of their leadership and weapons abilities. Similarly, Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorkas has established a coalition aimed at addressing DVE within the department. DHS, the third-largest government agency, is home to many law enforcement personnel and functions largely outside a direct chain of command structure to the secretary. A former DHS senior official told CBS that this means “even a small number of ‘problematic officers’ can be ‘corrosive’ to the institution at large.” Restructuring Offices The Department of Homeland Security has had a busy year already. In addition to its joint report and forthcoming internal review, DHS has implemented a department-wide overhaul. In February, Secretary Mayorkas identified DVE as a National Priority Area, for the first time in department history. He then announced on May 11 that DHS would be closing the Office for Targeted Violence and Terrorism Prevention (OTVTP) and replacing it with the newly established Center for Prevention Programs and Partnerships (CP3). This new center is intended to leverage community relationships in order to empower neighbors, friends, and family to recognize the signs of radicalization and report them to the appropriate authorities. Although it will retain the Targeted Violence and Terrorism Prevention Grants, the CP3 will focus its efforts more toward the local level and pre-radicalization interventions than its predecessor. The OTVTP faced criticism of perceived discrimination and targeting of minorities, especially American Muslims. Biden’s presidential campaign promised to close the OTVTP and “conduct a thorough review of past programs and regularly consult with leaders from historically targeted communities, including Arab Americans, to ensure that civil rights are protected,” before opening new offices such as CP3. Along with the newly minted CP3, DHS established a new domestic terrorism branch within its Office of Intelligence and Analysis in May. The primary goal of the branch is to improve intelligence gathering on domestic terrorism, especially through social media monitoring. Following Jan. 6, critics lamented that evidence had been in plain sight on public social media postings, arguing that this proved that DHS should have been more prepared. In response, the department is now working to survey social media postings for indications of domestic attacks or DVE-related activities. DHS stresses that the focus is on mass data rather than individuals and that this process is being carried out by analysts instead of algorithms, which would in theory prevent some of the more concerning and untested “extremism predictive” analysis that many of those programs promise. The future of domestic terror intelligence gathering is still uncertain, and civil liberties groups have an abundance of legitimate concerns about this practice. But for now, this social media monitoring initiative indicates an evolving intelligence response to countering domestic terrorism. The Biden administration is also working alongside Silicon Valley to counter extremism by joining the Christchurch Call to Action to Eliminate Terrorist and Violent Extremist Content Online. The call comes after the March 2019 live-streamed shooting in Christchurch, New Zealand, and serves as a global commitment among governments, nongovernmental organizations, and tech companies to eliminate and counter the proliferation of violent extremist content. Under the Trump administration, the United States had refused to join, citing free speech concerns. Now the United States joins 54 other countries and 10 major tech companies in the call. The tech companies—which include Amazon, Facebook, Google and Twitter—have pledged to transparently outline their community standards and enforce consequences against breaches of those standards whenever necessary. Time will tell if that lofty goal comes to fruition, but the symbolism—that the United States will work with partners abroad as well as at home to fight terrorism—is important. Increasing Resources In light of both the events of Jan. 6 and the updated guidance from the national security community, the Biden administration is asking Congress to increase resources to counter the threat. The Department of Justice has requested a total of $85 million in additional funding for programs to investigate, prosecute, counter and police issues pertaining to domestic terrorism. Attorney General Merrick Garland is asking for $45 million to increase funding for FBI domestic terrorism investigations and another $40 million in aid for U.S. attorneys to manage the increasing domestic terrorism caseloads. The FBI is currently undertaking one of its largest investigations in history as it prosecutes those involved in Jan. 6 and will need more money and staffpower to get the job done. Lastly, Garland requested $33 million to help bolster the prosecution of hate crimes. Garland released new guidelines last month that provide significant updates to the way the federal government investigates and prosecutes DVE. These new guidelines require that any case involving suspected DVE be approved by the National Security Division at the Department of Justice. Main Justice is also responsible for coordinating investigations and tracking relevant data, a novel initiative that aims to streamline prosecutions and enhance domestic terrorism reporting. Collectively, these new policies make clear that the Biden administration has taken dramatic steps to change both the scope and the direction of American counterterrorism efforts. A strategy document is a significant step and an important marker, but it comes after months of a full-speed sprint. It is clear that structural changes are underway that aim to root out extremism in and out of government, attempt to concentrate efforts more efficiently, and invest in the issue of domestic extremism at a rate that is unprecedented in the United States.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 19:09
|
|
|
This was a single data point on how the justice system is dealing with the 1/6 treasoneers. You have someone who plea bargained to a single misdemeanor. She carried no weapons, stole no materials, and have never previously committed a crime. If she goes through their life never committing another crime, then the system works. Yeah, it seems light, but I'm not a federal prosecutor and I don't know anything about their sentencing guidelines except that they're very strict. Hopefully rehabilitative justice works in this case.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 19:09
|
|
mlmp08 posted:
We fought an entire world war over it. To me it is harder to justify the position of not punishing people who were involved with prison time than the contrary, considering we fought an entire world war over it.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 19:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 06:18 |
|
|
I think what mlmp08 is getting at is more like this:That Works posted:
If someone openly admits to going whole hog then that's an easy case. But a lot of people will claim "I was just in the general area, I had nothing to do with the capitol attack" and there's a burden of proof on prosecutors to prove otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2021 19:31
|
|
