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SlothfulCobra posted:Also kinda channeling the spirit of Charlie the Unicorn. I'm going to have "Banana in your ear" stuck in my head until the day I die
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Jun 15, 2021 03:40
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I'm going to have "Banana in your ear" stuck in my head until the day I die Is that a good thing?
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Jun 15, 2021 13:59
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Everyone posted:Is that a good thing? I haven't seen any of SPoP but from the discussion it sounds like they kind of made Adora and Catra gay just to make them gay. Which is fine on its own. I will say that I really prefer the approach of The Owl House where Luz being bisexual is just part of who she is and in some ways far from the most important part of who she is. I like that I could see the dynamic between Luz and Amity playing out even if Luz was Luis or Amity was Amitar (or whatever). Amity is attracted to Luz because Luz is cute, friendly and "exotic" (a real human!) but probably the thing that attracts Amity the most is her perception of Luz's freedom from obligations and responsibilities. Eda the Owl Lady is pretty far from a "disciplinarian" parent. Luz doesn't have any real expectations to meet except those she places on herself. She doesn't have to constantly live up to "the Blight name" in everything she does.
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Jun 15, 2021 15:42
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Honestly I find the Adora/Catra thing a bit weird because given their whole backstory of being raised together, they come off more as estranged sisters to me, complete with an abusive parental figure playing favourites. (maybe two, if you read Hordak as 'distant deadbeat dad who only started paying attention when the kids became useful') But cartoons have done far dumber stuff so I don't feel much need or justification to whine.
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Jun 15, 2021 16:03
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I wouldn't say that, they were after all raised among MANY child soldiers. I don't think either of them would consider themselves a sister to fuckin' scrub-rear end Kyle
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Jun 15, 2021 16:07
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Honestly I find the Adora/Catra thing a bit weird because given their whole backstory of being raised together, they come off more as estranged sisters to me, complete with an abusive parental figure playing favourites. (maybe two, if you read Hordak as 'distant deadbeat dad who only started paying attention when the kids became useful') But cartoons have done far dumber stuff so I don't feel much need or justification to whine. I can understand that take, and as has been mentioned before the final season sort of tripped at the finish line in a lot of ways in terms of story. I don’t mind the relationship honestly and it’s not like that was the only homoerotic subtext (or just text in some cases) presented in that show (or this franchise in general for that matter). I just feel that that, much like Catra’s redemption in general, might have been better handled if they started planting the seeds at least a season or two earlier.
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Jun 15, 2021 16:10
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Honestly I find the Adora/Catra thing a bit weird because given their whole backstory of being raised together, they come off more as estranged sisters to me, complete with an abusive parental figure playing favourites. (maybe two, if you read Hordak as 'distant deadbeat dad who only started paying attention when the kids became useful') But cartoons have done far dumber stuff so I don't feel much need or justification to whine. So a bit like if Guardians of the Galaxy 3 opens with the news that Gamora and Nebula are gently caress-buddies now? Like, nothing really wrong with it. It's not like they're even the same species, much less close blood relatives. Just more that after multiple movies talking about them as sisters it'd be kind of "Well, that took an unexpected turn..."
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Jun 16, 2021 01:15
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:This looks If the watermark didn't say "Netflix Family" I'd swear this was an adult cartoon. Tbh it looks pretty fun. Everyone posted:So a bit like if Guardians of the Galaxy 3 opens with the news that Gamora and Nebula are gently caress-buddies now? Like, nothing really wrong with it. It's not like they're even the same species, much less close blood relatives. Just more that after multiple movies talking about them as sisters it'd be kind of "Well, that took an unexpected turn..." Nah, they're very obviously gay for each other from early in the show's first season, particularly Catra.
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Jun 16, 2021 01:26
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Open Source Idiom posted:Nah, they're very obviously gay for each other from early in the show's first season, particularly Catra. Good enough. Like I said previously, I haven't actually watched SPoP so to the extent that I'm following it (which I'm mostly not) is through the discussions here on the boards.
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Jun 16, 2021 03:16
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Everyone posted:Good enough. Like I said previously, I haven't actually watched SPoP so to the extent that I'm following it (which I'm mostly not) is through the discussions here on the boards. It falls apart a little during the last season but in my opinion it’s still a fun show regardless. I’d personally recommend checking it out (if you’ve seen its 80’s counterpart though just be aware that this is a very different beast in several aspects and to go into it with an open mind)
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Jun 16, 2021 03:26
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Open Source Idiom posted:If the watermark didn't say "Netflix Family" I'd swear this was an adult cartoon. Tbh it looks pretty fun. I feel like that's the vibe they're leaning into really, colourful, weird and disturbing. I do love when they use different animation styles to emphasise how they're from a distant world; like, the horse is from a She-Ra or Avatar style cartoon and finds herself trapped in somewhere more like Adventure Time. And fair enough, maybe I just find the more 'broken family' narrative more compelling/relatable than the 'estranged lovers/crush' one, probably for personal reasons. I do like the bits early on where Adora is distinctly uncomfortable in Bright Moon's lavish guest quarters when she's used to crowded, spartan, social barracks with Catra literally curled up at her feet.
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Jun 16, 2021 11:12
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I feel like that's the vibe they're leaning into really, colourful, weird and disturbing. I do love when they use different animation styles to emphasise how they're from a distant world; like, the horse is from a She-Ra or Avatar style cartoon and finds herself trapped in somewhere more like Adventure Time. The former does feel a little more like what they were going for at the beginning but I can see either viewpoint honestly. In Legend of Korra the titular character’s relationship with Asami also feels like it was brought up kind of abruptly but to be fair they at least started planting the seeds around the third season or so and a lot of the series was kind of flying by the seat of its pants anyway since it was originally never going to be any more than a oneshot miniseries.
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Jun 16, 2021 11:54
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 That's from mid season one. I rest my case.
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Jun 16, 2021 12:01
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Open Source Idiom posted:
Ironically if it had been two guys, I’d have noticed the hell out of that. As an Actual Gay, I should hand in my card because I assumed they were going for found family sister-ness.
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Jun 16, 2021 12:08
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I think it can be safely said they're kinda mixing metaphors, and frankly the line can be pretty fuzzy anyway.The_Doctor posted:Ironically if it had been two guys, I’d have noticed the hell out of that. As an Actual Gay, I should hand in my card because I assumed they were going for found family sister-ness. I think that might be as much because the whole one side being openly aggressive/passive-aggressive while the other is 'Hey, I'm kinda into this' is more a thing associated with male homoerotic tension. Normally the 'bad girl' in a lesbian couple is the openly dominant one. (I'm pretty sure Catra's a power bottom)
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Jun 16, 2021 12:17
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What communicates something like romance is the context behind a specific scene, and that whole segment casts them as participants in a dance and codes them through their dress as traditional partners in that act but also exhibits their behavior and treatment of each other is one of distrust and antagonism. It's not far-fetched at all for someone to look at what is presented in the earlier seasons, which were absent explicit statements of romantic affection, and read their interactions as those of family or close friends especially with the context of them having been raised together by the same maternal figure. Speaking as an ace person here, it is entirely possible to be intensely emotionally involved and personal with someone without it being sexual or that fashion of romantic. What is communicated throughout the first few seasons is that there was a deep intimacy between them and that one felt betrayed by the other and that this spurs her behavior through most of the series. What was intended and what the case is are different things from how a person can view and interpret a piece of media, and I don't think it's ignorance that causes people to look at those seasons and not inherently see a romantic relationship. It was a question people had going into the final season on whether they'd be kept as they were or make it explicitly romantic. And I don't think it's impossible to look at lot of things from that show and simultaneously be able to see romantic subtext while also being able to understand why others would see a different kind of intimacy, and vice-versa.
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Jun 16, 2021 12:24
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Flashbacks to "is Owl House gay" intensifying.
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Jun 16, 2021 13:12
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No one's denying that She-Ra is gay as hell, more that in this particular case, the context for the whole relationship is a bit more than that. (The Owl House leaves no real ambiguity about how queer as all hell it is, though I get enby energy from Luz myself)
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Jun 16, 2021 13:15
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The Owl House leaves no real ambiguity about how queer as all hell it is, though I get enby energy from Luz myself Sorry, when I say flashbacks I mean actual flashbacks lol. I did not have a good time on the Internet (or this thread) trying to make the case that the show was, in fact, actually queer. I ended up not finishing it, unfortunately. Whatever, I'll get over it.
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Jun 16, 2021 13:20
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Wait, people didn't get they were gay for each other? Sure, I intially thought Scorpia was a better fit until later on, but I still saw they were gay for each other.
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Jun 16, 2021 14:40
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Just two gal pals, pallin' around
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Jun 16, 2021 15:11
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I think its the shared abusive childhood that muddled the message for some. The "mom always liked you best" tones make it easy to read sisters.
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Jun 16, 2021 15:57
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Open Source Idiom posted:Sorry, when I say flashbacks I mean actual flashbacks lol. I did not have a good time on the Internet (or this thread) trying to make the case that the show was, in fact, actually queer. Who the gently caress were you making that case to? Did you get into arguments with them about whether the Sun rises in the East or the ocean is wet? If nothing else it's obvious that Amity is intensely crushing on Luz by the end of "Enchanting Grom Fright" and especially "Wing It Like Witches." Luz has made a few statements showing that she's open to romance with girls and boys. Of course, sometimes Luz can also be an oblivious goober-head which is why she apparently hasn't yet grokked that Amity is crushing on her. Maybe by the end of the next episode.
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Jun 16, 2021 18:51
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The Bee posted:I think its the shared abusive childhood that muddled the message for some. The "mom always liked you best" tones make it easy to read sisters. Yeah, Shadow Weaver was presented as sort of a mother figure to the both of them (albeit an extremely abusive one in multiple respects who largely treated Catra in particular like poo poo). Which is why I kind of get them still being a little sad when she sacrifices herself late in the series. Larryb fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 19:07
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Just two gal pals, pallin' around The correct term is cousins.
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Jun 16, 2021 19:08
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Everyone posted:Who the gently caress were you making that case to? Did you get into arguments with them about whether the Sun rises in the East or the ocean is wet? If nothing else it's obvious that Amity is intensely crushing on Luz by the end of "Enchanting Grom Fright" and especially "Wing It Like Witches." Luz has made a few statements showing that she's open to romance with girls and boys. Of course, sometimes Luz can also be an oblivious goober-head which is why she apparently hasn't yet grokked that Amity is crushing on her. Maybe by the end of the next episode. iirc it was a post in this thread well before amity was extremely obviously into luz
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Jun 16, 2021 19:17
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If it's the post I remember it was "the owl house is queer" from like the second episode. Which, good on that poster and their apparent gaydar, they get to hold that over this thread forever, but I can understand trepidation over proclaiming gay representation over what was basically day one shipping. edit: honestly I think years of gaybait has literally traumatized people into not believing things are gay. mycot fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 21:30
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As I remember it, the post in question wasn't talking about shipping or textually queer characters so much as the general themes that the show was dealing in. And the problem wasn't people disagreeing in the case of Owl House in particular, it was a bunch of weirdly gatekeep-y posts about what does and doesn't get to count as a "queer theme." There's a difference between "explicit representation should be the standard" and "the lack of explicit representation makes your queer reading of this work invalid," and most of the responses leaned much more towards the latter. Oh, and for good measure, I think there were also a couple responses buying into the right wing framing that queer relationships are inherently more sexual than straight ones.
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Jun 16, 2021 22:25
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With Centaurworld I'm curious if the song is foreshadowing possible red flags. Their insistence on describing themselves as the horses "New best friends" despite barely knowing her, and the lyric "We're never gonna leave you alone" (which could be read in two ways, either they'll never let her suffer without help, or they'll never give her a moment's peace), it could be interesting if they are actually closer to a cult than a community.
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Jun 16, 2021 23:01
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BioEnchanted posted:With Centaurworld I'm curious if the song is foreshadowing possible red flags. Their insistence on describing themselves as the horses "New best friends" despite barely knowing her, and the lyric "We're never gonna leave you alone" (which could be read in two ways, either they'll never let her suffer without help, or they'll never give her a moment's peace), it could be interesting if they are actually closer to a cult than a community. You can hear more of the song in other trailers, which spells it out even more: "we're a little codependent but we're happier this way".
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Jun 16, 2021 23:19
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I think it's fairly obvious from what's hinted in the preview about "The War" that tehy all have some PTSD derived trauma taht probably expresses itself in weird and quirky and probably partially destructive ways and rely on each other to stabilize at only a mess rather than a trashfire.
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Jun 17, 2021 00:48
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Cattail Prophet posted:As I remember it, the post in question wasn't talking about shipping or textually queer characters so much as the general themes that the show was dealing in. And the problem wasn't people disagreeing in the case of Owl House in particular, it was a bunch of weirdly gatekeep-y posts about what does and doesn't get to count as a "queer theme." I'm a straight, white CiS-gender male, so feel free to tell me I'm full of poo poo on this, but I admit that I'm a little leery of "explicit representation" depending on what that means. I have way too many memories of stuff from the 80s and 90s that would introduce characters like: "Hi, I'm Bob. I'm a Black Negro who is African-American." "Nice to meet you, Bob. I'm Steve, a gay homosexual who likes to have sex with other men." "Cool to be here. I'm Aliya. I'm an Islamic Muslim who follows the teachings of the Prophet, Mohammad." Like whatever minority aspect they had was the only trait they had. Usually the character would get introduced and over the course of as little as one episode, they'd be victims of racism and the main (white, straight, CiS-gender, often male) characters would stand up to that racism. At which point the minority character would pretty much vanish off the face of the planet never to be seen (or mentioned) again. Everyone fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Jun 17, 2021 |
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Jun 17, 2021 01:42
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Cattail Prophet posted:As I remember it, the post in question wasn't talking about shipping or textually queer characters so much as the general themes that the show was dealing in. And the problem wasn't people disagreeing in the case of Owl House in particular, it was a bunch of weirdly gatekeep-y posts about what does and doesn't get to count as a "queer theme." yeah this "but are they REALLY gay 😳🤔🤪" mass investigation literally do not happen with straight couples. if u have hets in the forefront that close for that long the network/fanbase smoosh them together with practically holy conviction the gays get nothing and whatever they do get is 1. smashed in at the end of the show and 2. endlessly debated over by joyless nerds. are lesbians like a trick of the light? cryptids? i do not understand this need for empirical dissection
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Jun 17, 2021 01:49
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In practical terms, if you keep the romantic hugging and kissing and declarations of their relationship status offscreen, then there's very little visual difference between close friends and romantic partners. From a storytelling angle, then if you don't get directly expressive to the audience about important aspect of a main character's life, then you're not really telling the audience their story. And then with side characters, it's weird if the other characters don't talk directly about them. There's actually a whole lot of cartoons where there's basically no romance at all, so it's weird to not value the difference between romance and not-romance in your storytelling. Unless you're purposefully trying to create fertile ground for headcanons and fanfictions without risk of contradiction. In political terms, if the existence of representation is going to be something with greater overall societal value that people are gonna make a big deal about, then you can't really pussyfoot around the the thing that you're supposedly trying to express. There's a whole thing where headlines keep getting made about relatively small potatoes with room for ambiguity, and then those small potatoes can get cleanly edited out in international releases. https://twitter.com/autoscorer/status/1396177975909883906 And sure, it may not feel great for your piece of media to be another token in a grand political game across society, but well, everything is in one way or another. If you don't care about the score, fine, but then you'll score less and make less waves. It is what it is. BioEnchanted posted:With Centaurworld I'm curious if the song is foreshadowing possible red flags. Their insistence on describing themselves as the horses "New best friends" despite barely knowing her, and the lyric "We're never gonna leave you alone" (which could be read in two ways, either they'll never let her suffer without help, or they'll never give her a moment's peace), it could be interesting if they are actually closer to a cult than a community. It looks like the sort of classic comedy setup where the serious character hates the annoying wacky (and creepy) characters they're forced by circumstances to associate with, which is a proven formula but also there's a precarious balance if you want to stick some kind of more thoughtful drama on top of that or want it to be believable that the characters could get along.
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Jun 17, 2021 03:15
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Everyone posted:Who the gently caress were you making that case to? Did you get into arguments with them about whether the Sun rises in the East or the ocean is wet? If nothing else it's obvious that Amity is intensely crushing on Luz by the end of "Enchanting Grom Fright" and especially "Wing It Like Witches." Luz has made a few statements showing that she's open to romance with girls and boys. Of course, sometimes Luz can also be an oblivious goober-head which is why she apparently hasn't yet grokked that Amity is crushing on her. Maybe by the end of the next episode. To confirm what's been said, I did call it fairly early on, around about episode three, but it wasn't anything particularly shippy, just that the show was open to a queer reading in terms of themes and characters. Which I understand can be a reach for some people (because heteronormativity), but I repeatedly got called creepy for thinking it. And yeah there was a lot of "we must protect the children from the (gay) sexing" moral panic bullshit. Just check my post history in this thread, I think it's on the first page if you click the question mark. And thanks peeps, it honestly means a lot to hear this stuff. I was so surprised that goons were still being so openly and uncomplicatedly homophobic, particularly when so younread so many TVIV goons talk about how they've changed since the 90's and 00's, or the way gay jokes from older shows haven't "aged well" or whatever. It felt like I was back in the 90's and 00's, tbh.
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Jun 17, 2021 03:18
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Open Source Idiom posted:To confirm what's been said, I did call it fairly early on, around about episode three, but it wasn't anything particularly shippy, just that the show was open to a queer reading in terms of themes and characters. The "characters being explicitly LGBTQ is inherently sexual, therefore no underaged characters should ever be explicitly gay!" battle is probably never gonna end so long as there are people who happily follow that thought up with, "my five-year-old daughter has a boyfriend and it's so cute!" And as an ace person, boy that poo poo's extra-exhausting. (To say nothing of how often queer themes or characters are ignored by media coverage unless it's in service of a romantic relationship.)
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Jun 17, 2021 03:28
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xeria posted:The "characters being explicitly LGBTQ is inherently sexual, therefore no underaged characters should ever be explicitly gay!" battle is probably never gonna end so long as there are people who happily follow that thought up with, "my five-year-old daughter has a boyfriend and it's so cute!" And as an ace person, boy that poo poo's extra-exhausting. I'd probably steal that one bit from The West Wing for that. Me: You think the idea of underaged kids being gay is wrong and gross, but then your little five-year old girl having a boyfriend is cute, right? Them: Sure. Me: Then shut the gently caress up, you hypocritical rear end-hat. For my part I'm looking forward to Luz and Amity navigating a romantic relationship, because I'm pretty sure it's going to be a car accident. See, the biggest factor here isn't that Luz is bi-sexual or Hispanic or, y'know human and effectively an alien visitor. It's that even within the honest-to-Titan magical fantasy world of the Boiling Isles, Luz Noceda still kind of conflates fantasy and reality. She's also prone to emotional, over-dramatic gestures (as when Eda is talking to Lilith about the food budget due to having to find things that Luz can actually eat and digest so Luz joins a ship crew to go Moby Dick on some extremely dangerous sea monster). So you just know that given their tender hearts and raging hormones, there's going to plenty of hurt feelings and goofy misunderstandings in the Luz/Amity pairing. And instead of just talking things through with Amity and/or apologizing like a normal person, Luz will likely rummage through Eda's collection of human garbage, repair what she needs, go to the Bleaks' home at 3:30 AM or so and do this. And it will be amazing. Everyone fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Jun 17, 2021 |
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Jun 17, 2021 04:18
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No offense to anyone here but I think people are getting too invested in what is almost definitely not the show's primary narrative and even if they get in a relationship it's gonna take a backseat to a bunch of plot stuff or one-off gag episodes.
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Jun 17, 2021 04:57
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people are getting invested because LGBT rep in kids cartoon is still limited to what is deemed 'acceptable', so anything that is actually concrete and validated is going to be celebrated
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Jun 17, 2021 05:01
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Something I'm curious about with the Blights (mild s02 e02 things so I'll put it in spoilers) is if Amity's father will join Amity and her siblings on Luz's side, leaving her mother basically alone and wallowing in her own toxicity. Given what we see of him in that episode he is at least a lot fairer than she is, so I could see her behaviour finally annoying him enough that he develops the confidence to stand up to her, even if it's just making clear that once he no longer needs her after the Emperor Bellos contract is over their marriage will also be over.
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Jun 17, 2021 06:18
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