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droll posted:Why would Hamas take photos of themselves doing this? What I hate is when Israel-proponents claim Hamas is engaging in a sophisticated propaganda campaign to convince the world to go on their side. They aren't doing poo poo. They always claim responsibility for terror attacks. They publicly proclaim to wipe Israel out. If they were engaging in an international propaganda campaign they would significantly soften their rhetoric. Israel wants to wipe Gaza out, but they will never profess this publicly to look good. If Hamas were engaging in a "sophisticated propaganda warfare" to make the world side with Hamas, then Hamas would also proclaim repeatedly and publicly that Jews are not the enemy, whether that is true or not, they would claim this regardless to make the world side with Hamas if they were using so-called propaganda. When Israel demolishes Palestinian homes in the West Bank, they claim it is because they do not have a permit (which is impossible to acquire), even if the house was built before Israel was born. So Israel would justify home demolition to the international community by claiming there was no permit. If this was Hamas, they would just demolish the house without presenting the international community an appearingly adequate reason for doing so. Hamas does not operate Twitter accounts posting propaganda for the international community. They tweet in Arabic supporting their efforts against Israel internally. Whereas Israel takes an active role on Twitter in persuading the public against them with posted propaganda like here: https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1395450267055923200 Hamas does not engage in such precise propaganda media to the international community in this manner. Hamas is publicly blatant in advocating their violence against Israel, whereas Israel, unlike Hamas, publicly professes to only attack military targets and not civilians. They both kill civilians, but only Hamas admits to it. Hamas takes pictures of their launch sites, whether for rockets or balloons and publicly posts them on the internet and then announce a Jihad against Israel. Hamas definitely engages in extensive propaganda internally in the Gaza Strip to rile up local support for Hamas and their activities, but the case that Hamas engages in international propaganda is absurd. A poorly written article this month titled: "Hamas Winning Propaganda War on Social Media" https://www.sdjewishworld.com/2021/06/06/hamas-winning-propaganda-war-on-social-media/ Where is Hamas on social media? What propaganda are they posting on social media? We have an extensive social media presence from the Israeli government on Twitter and Facebook posting lies and propaganda, like how they dubiously directed a propaganda video where they allegedly "aborted a strike" because there were civilian there. No one trusts Hamas' accounts on the conflict, like if Israel kills a civilian, no one would trust Hamas' claim on that account, so where does the information that civilians were killed come from? The news, Associated Press, BBC and others. It does not come from Hamas. When Israel bombs innocent civilians , like UN shelters, schools and media offices, it is not Hamas' account that is posted to the media, it is the independent assessment of the news organization. So where is the Hamas propaganda coming from?
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Jun 16, 2021 22:47
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A Hamas twitter or facebook account would be banned instantly.
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Jun 16, 2021 22:51
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AtomikKrab posted:Balloons are actually incredibly difficult to stop. Very small target that is moving erratically and can be difficult to spot in the sky. Next to no metal so radar is not useful either. Is there no type of radar that would detect this kind of stuff? I guess it does work but that's kind of super embarrassing for one the world best and most technologically advanced armies.
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Jun 17, 2021 01:32
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Starpluck posted:A poorly written article this month titled: "Hamas Winning Propaganda War on Social Media" https://www.sdjewishworld.com/2021/06/06/hamas-winning-propaganda-war-on-social-media/ quote:Hamas has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to build a subterranean military city underneath Gaza, I demand that Hamas free the mole people they have enslaved to build their underground kingdom.
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Jun 17, 2021 01:33
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:The NY Times and Washington Post had some photo of damage caused by incendiary balloons and burned what appear to be acres of wheat or some other kind of crop. Gaza has more party balloons, condoms, and scraps of cloth and wood than Israel has armed drones, and your typical anti-aircraft weaponry isn't built to detect and shoot down kites. And even if they shoot down the balloon, the burning payload is still gonna fall to the ground and potentially start a fire below wherever it was shot down. It's a very effective strategy for asymmetric warfare, as it's both easier to make and easier to launch than rockets are, which makes it difficult for Israel to stop them before they're launched. The best part is that it's not going to really do much damage to heavily-populated areas, because fire crews will arrive right away to put out the fire if the payload lands in someone's backyard. Unless it lands directly on someone's head, the risk of killing someone is lower than with the rockets, but the economic damage can be much higher, especially if it lands in sparsely populated land such as cropland. Crosby B. Alfred posted:Is there no type of radar that would detect this kind of stuff? I guess it does work but that's kind of super embarrassing for one the world best and most technologically advanced armies. No one's ever built a radar for detecting standard party balloons. They've never before been considered a meaningful military threat, and they don't have much in common with the stuff anti-air systems are generally designed to shoot down. Even previous instances of military balloon weapons (which haven't seen serious offensive use since WWII) are pretty different from what's being used by Gazans. Japanese fire balloons, for instance, were 30 feet in diameter, and even the British incendiary balloons were 8 feet in diameter. Meanwhile, a typical party balloon is less than a foot in diameter, and a wide variety of designs are used since people are just using whatever they can get their hands on. Standard party balloons, foil-wrapped balloons, inflated condoms - anything that'll get up in the air and stay there for a little while will serve the purpose. It's not literally impossible to devise a technological solution, I'm sure, but the IDF is going to have to invent some entirely new equipment to do so, and then deploy it all along the border at considerable cost. It's not something they can just grab off-the-shelf hardware for. And if Israel spends tens of millions of dollars designing and deploying a weapons system designed to prevent balloons from causing a couple million dollars of damage a year, that's not really mitigating the economic costs that balloon warfare is inflicting.
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Jun 17, 2021 04:56
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Main Paineframe posted:
Eh, it's less likely to do military damage but probably more likely to kill civilians. Fire is very dangerous and can get out of control very easily. That's why this stuff is usually considered a war crime, there's essentially zero defensive military value to it, the only use is as a terror weapon against civilian populations.
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Jun 17, 2021 05:23
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of course the use of these balloons for direct incendiary effect would be a war crime, but i'm sure the folks launching them are merely using them as illumination rounds and smoke screens for legitimate military activities, and any incendiary effects are a completely unintentional side effect
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Jun 17, 2021 06:29
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Gender reveal parties have done far more damage to life and property than these balloons
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Jun 17, 2021 09:20
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AtomikKrab posted:Very small target that is moving erratically You’d think the IDF would have a lot of practice versus targets like that, with all the children they shoot
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Jun 17, 2021 10:12
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Tarezax posted:Gender reveal parties have done far more damage to life and property than these balloons
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Jun 17, 2021 12:11
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Is there no type of radar that would detect this kind of stuff? I guess it does work but that's kind of super embarrassing for one the world best and most technologically advanced armies. There was one in Germany but it was eventually scrapped because it only worked if the balloon were red.
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Jun 17, 2021 13:28
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Not to bum out the celebration, but LIDAR picks up balloons just fine. This sort of thing is exactly why both the US and Israel have been developing laser defense systems, and the IDF already started deploying units in 2020.
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Jun 17, 2021 14:14
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Twelve by Pies posted:I demand that Hamas free the mole people they have enslaved to build their underground kingdom. They must’ve hired the same guys who built Osama Bin Laden’s TERRORMEGAPLEX in Afghanistan
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Jun 17, 2021 16:10
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Starpluck posted:Gaza is so small that I often wonder how many hospitals and schools they have left over that weren't destroyed or disabled by Israel. gradenko_2000 posted:This is "Hamas and Civil Society in Gaza", by Sara Roy
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Jun 17, 2021 16:18
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Twelve by Pies posted:I demand that Hamas free the mole people they have enslaved to build their underground kingdom. "Law-abiding nations that value human life issue their fighting men and women with strict rules of engagement that are designed to minimize collateral damage and to make sure, to the best of their abilities, that the only ones killed are enemy combatants. The IDF has taken this responsibility to unimaginable levels." I can't comprehend how people say this with a straight-face while Israel is blatant about killing innocents. It is one thing to claim Israel is not killing civilians. It is another world to say that Israel has taken their concern of killing Palestinian civilians to "unimaginable levels." She then says quote:No other army in the world warns the residents of apartment buildings used as terror headquarters and missile launching pads that they must flee. What does Israel define a "headquarters" to be when bombing apartment complexes that house such "headquarters." What does the "headquarters" contain? Recall that Israel bombed Associated Press' and Al Jazeera's media office claiming that a Hamas military intelligence HQ operated in the building.
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Jun 17, 2021 19:51
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IDF has a worse civilian to combatant ratio in opposing deaths then Bashar al-Assad so that's quite a claim.
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Jun 17, 2021 20:13
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Kaal posted:Not to bum out the celebration, but LIDAR picks up balloons just fine. This sort of thing is exactly why both the US and Israel have been developing laser defense systems, and the IDF already started deploying units in 2020. Google search "YouTube video laser that can pop balloon"
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Jun 17, 2021 22:27
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BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:Google search "YouTube video laser that can pop balloon" I mean obviously it's more complicated to do that sort of thing at a distance and with weather effects, but in truth it's really pretty similar. Popping balloons with a laser designed to explode mortar shells is pretty easy, and picking out a slow-moving object out of the sky is relatively simple. If Hamas continues making a habit of trying to start wildfires near Israeli towns, then it's going to be a perfect test case for the continued development of multi-spectral laser defense weaponry. https://www.voanews.com/episode/israels-space-age-laser-weapon-targets-explosive-balloons-gaza-4407646
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Jun 18, 2021 01:30
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Kaal posted:I mean obviously it's more complicated to do that sort of thing at a distance and with weather effects, but in truth it's really pretty similar. Popping balloons with a laser designed to explode mortar shells is pretty easy, and picking out a slow-moving object out of the sky is relatively simple. If Hamas continues making a habit of trying to start wildfires near Israeli towns, then it's going to be a perfect test case for the continued development of multi-spectral laser defense weaponry. Sure, but if Israel spends tens of millions of dollars developing and deploying a weapon to defend against economic warfare that causes tens of millions of dollars worth of damage, that's not exactly a big win. That's asymmetric warfare in a nutshell. One of those anti-balloon lasers costs literally a million dollars, while a hundred party balloons costs less than ten bucks on Amazon. Even if you factor in the cost of the helium, the costs of getting stuff through the blockade, and so on, it's hardly an even trade. Incidentally, the new PM has previously expressed his opinion on these incendiary attacks: kill 'em all. So I wouldn't be shocked to see more escalation. https://twitter.com/naftalibennett/status/1009362551656931328 Per Google Translate: quote:They are not 8-year-olds.
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Jun 18, 2021 01:56
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DarkCrawler posted:IDF has a worse civilian to combatant ratio in opposing deaths then Bashar al-Assad so that's quite a claim. The IDF has a monstrous reputation for causing civilian strife and suffering but I don't think this true fam.
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Jun 18, 2021 02:27
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Tarezax posted:Gender reveal parties have done far more damage to life and property than these balloons I see what you're saying but it's not the best example because gender reveal parties should be classified as war crimes
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Jun 18, 2021 03:53
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:The IDF has a monstrous reputation for causing civilian strife and suffering but I don't think this true fam. idk assad killed like a lot more actual enemy combatants to it might be
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Jun 18, 2021 03:58
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punishedkissinger posted:idk assad killed like a lot more actual enemy combatants to it might be You're gonna need to cite an actual source or something for that. "Assad killed a lot of enemy combatants" is like saying "the IDF almost always just hits Hamas" so maybe check your propaganda intake there homie.
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Jun 18, 2021 04:34
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Main Paineframe posted:Sure, but if Israel spends tens of millions of dollars developing and deploying a weapon to defend against economic warfare that causes tens of millions of dollars worth of damage, that's not exactly a big win. That's asymmetric warfare in a nutshell. One of those anti-balloon lasers costs literally a million dollars, while a hundred party balloons costs less than ten bucks on Amazon. Even if you factor in the cost of the helium, the costs of getting stuff through the blockade, and so on, it's hardly an even trade. Well I don't think that Israel is going to lose an economic war with Hamas any time soon. This is the sort of conflict that the IDF is always going to win, because they can easily afford to continue fighting it while the Palestinians fall further behind every year. These types of laser systems are considered very affordable because they cost virtually nothing to operate once they're deployed. And they are considered key platforms because that same technology is also being prototyped for counter-drone and counter-artillery usage. So this sort of thing would be getting funded even if there wasn't a perfect use case to test it on. It's certainly cheaper than dealing with fires. Kaal fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Jun 18, 2021 |
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Jun 18, 2021 07:14
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:You're gonna need to cite an actual source or something for that. "Assad killed a lot of enemy combatants" is like saying "the IDF almost always just hits Hamas" so maybe check your propaganda intake there homie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war At worst Assad has killed ~150k civilians (in actuality the opposition is responsible for some share of these deaths) versus 110-150k opposition fighters, plus another 40k ISIl and around 15k from a handful of other militant groups. Even if you doubled the civilian deaths he would have a better ratio than Israel which is at something like 20-1 civilian to military. punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Jun 18, 2021 |
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Jun 18, 2021 13:49
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punishedkissinger posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war Where do those stats come from? I don't believe for a second that everyone Assad classed as an enemy combatant actually was one, any more than I believe it when Israel or the US say the same thing. Kaal posted:Well I don't think that Israel is going to lose an economic war with Hamas any time soon. This is the sort of conflict that the IDF is always going to win, because they can easily afford to continue fighting it while the Palestinians fall further behind every year. These types of laser systems are considered very affordable because they cost virtually nothing to operate once they're deployed. And they are considered key platforms because that same technology is also being prototyped for counter-drone and counter-artillery usage. So this sort of thing would be getting funded even if there wasn't a perfect use case to test it on. It's certainly cheaper than dealing with fires. This is the problem with a uniform definition of "war crime." There's no war that the Palestinians can prosecute and win, that's the simple fact of the matter. They are occupied and faced with the annexation of their land, and the only option they have is to attempt to make it unpalatable for Israel to continue on its course. The sole option they have without resorting to things that might be considered war crimes, is to simply accept their loss and abandon their homes. I'm not going to say incendiary balloons are harmless or good, I'm saying they've been backed into a corner where they have no other reasonable option to resist encroachment on their land. I'm sure Menachem Begin, having been a leader in the Irgun, would understand that mindset.
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Jun 19, 2021 03:28
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punishedkissinger posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war You're doing it again lol e: even if we use the wikipedia claims as a source (and syria experts know that wikipedia is a lost cause in terms of the pro-Assad sway of many of the Syria-related pages) you're still wrong and should feel bad about yourself. 
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Jun 19, 2021 04:10
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As long as we ignore the fact that in a decade of conflict Assad killed about 10 times more civilians than the total number casualties of the entire 70 year long Israeli-palestinian conflict on both sides so we can say "Israel, so bad" I think we're good. I always liked Zizek's quip about the IDF and Hamas being the most humane and moral armies in the world, when you look around towards other conflicts ours seems downright civil.
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Jun 19, 2021 06:05
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Jun 19, 2021 08:16
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Bibi is currently holed up in the PM's residence and had a poo poo ton of food and drinks delivered just before his access to PM funds was turned off. He's doing the thing everyone (the ones who bizarrely thought Trump had a spine) thought would happen on Jan 20. Just bunkering down in his gamer cave daring the government to drag him out. e: twitter might be lying on this one. a tragedy for the peanut gallery 
Zedhe Khoja fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Jun 19, 2021 |
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Jun 19, 2021 22:14
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just out of curiosity, how is climate change factored into isreali life/decisions/politics ? like whats the plan for ~30 years from now when there's 20% less precipitation and one or two days every year are "if you go outside for more than an hour you die"
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Jun 20, 2021 00:05
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MightyBigMinus posted:just out of curiosity, how is climate change factored into isreali life/decisions/politics ? “We will send the Arabs out on those days”
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Jun 20, 2021 01:30
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MightyBigMinus posted:just out of curiosity, how is climate change factored into isreali life/decisions/politics ? The same as the plan for every climate denier, one of two things: 1)Not actually happening! 2)Technology will be invented that fixes this! If they go with #2, and you ask, "Well, what happens if it isn't invented?", go to #1.
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Jun 23, 2021 07:49
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MightyBigMinus posted:just out of curiosity, how is climate change factored into isreali life/decisions/politics ? I'm guessing we break 95ºF Wet-Bulb somewhere on the planet in the next 5 years. But it won't matter because it will be "those people."
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Jun 23, 2021 20:44
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It'll be several billion of those people. Quantity has a quality all of it own
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Jun 23, 2021 23:53
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Failed Imagineer posted:It'll be several billion of those people. Quantity has a quality all of it own
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Jun 24, 2021 00:11
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I imagine hotter Israel will just look like Dubai or Qatar or Saudi Arabia, already hot places seem like they will adapt easily and it’s places that are currently temperate that seems like they would have a hugely hard time with a hotter future.
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Jun 24, 2021 01:17
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Grouchio posted:That's not how wet bulb events work. There was a heat wave in 2015 India that had this and only ~2500 died of heatstroke. Instead of a billion like you insinuate. It wasn’t over 95ºF Wet Bulb. It wasn’t even close. Here’s the tally: On 8 July 2003, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia saw the highest heat index ever recorded at 178 °F (81 °C) with a temperature of 108 °F (42 °C) and a 95 °F (35 °C) dew point.[14][15] The 2015 Indian heat wave saw wet-bulb temperatures in Andhra Pradesh reach 30 °C (86 °F). A similar wet-bulb temperature was reached during the 1995 Chicago heat wave.[16] A heat wave in August 2015 saw temperatures of 48.6 °C (119.5 °F) and a dew point of 29.5 °C (85.1 °F) at Samawah, Iraq, and 114.8 °F (46.0 °C) with a dew point of 89.6 °F (32.0 °C) in Bandar-e Mahshahr, Iran.[17] This implied wet-bulb temperatures of about 33.5 °C (92.3 °F) and 34.7 °C (94.5 °F) respectively.[18] The government urged residents to stay out of the sun and drink plenty of water. So yeah, 94.5ºF wet-bulb in Iran is nipping at the "everyone dies" value. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet-bulb_temperature
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Jun 24, 2021 01:37
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Grouchio posted:That's not how wet bulb events work. There was a heat wave in 2015 India that had this and only ~2500 died of heatstroke. Instead of a billion like you insinuate. With all due respect, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. And the fun thing about heat stress is that it doesn't just kill people en masse, it also causes massive crop failures which coincide with massive droughts. Oh wait no, that's not fun Failed Imagineer fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jun 24, 2021 |
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Jun 24, 2021 20:50
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Sustained wet bulb temperature of 35C is lethal in humans even assuming perfect health, unlimited water, shade, no activity, and no clothes Wet bulb temperature is the lowest temperature reachable by evaporative cooling, so sweating can't lower temperature past that. Prolonged 35C skin temperatures are fatal https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/107/21/9552.full.pdf
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Jun 24, 2021 21:14
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