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fez_machine posted:I'll add Stein's Gate if you haven't played that. Yes, but it ain't over yet. You should finish reading the whole thing first.
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Jun 16, 2021 14:57
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Oh poo poo, shouldve already said I read a lets play of the 999 games (and quite enjoyed it) so I don't think I need to play those. With steins gate, eventually I think I'll watch the anime with my wife, but then I look into playing the games, and its a series, so I wanna play the first one, chaos head, but I heard thats bad (or love it or hate it) so I procrastinate.
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Jun 16, 2021 15:35
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Mirello posted:With steins gate, eventually I think I'll watch the anime with my wife, but then I look into playing the games, and its a series, so I wanna play the first one, chaos head, but I heard thats bad (or love it or hate it) so I procrastinate. They're more of a brand than a series? I don't think there's much in the way of references to C;H in S;G.
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Jun 16, 2021 15:39
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Yeah, think of them like Final Fantasy games. You really don't need to play Final Fantasy 1 before Final Fantasy 2. Also I will note that while Steins;Gate is great, you may not be as satisfied as far as choices go if you super care about it. There are choices, but they are fairly limited, with only a few mattering.
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Jun 16, 2021 17:04
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While there aren't many choices that matter the ones that do matter are very interesting IMO. One of the main things the game has on the (also very good) anime adaptation.
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Jun 16, 2021 17:25
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Mirello posted:Oh poo poo, shouldve already said I read a lets play of the 999 games (and quite enjoyed it) so I don't think I need to play those. It's more like a vague universe with a tiny number of cameos and references. There's no need to play them all, or in order.
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Jun 16, 2021 17:41
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If you don't mind there also being gameplay/combat, 13 Sentinels might be your thing, though its a looooooot closer to an adventure game with VN structure/framing than an actual traditional VN
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Jun 16, 2021 20:00
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Chaos Head was unplayable, I've never detested an MC as much as I have the lad from that game
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Jun 17, 2021 01:52
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Danganronpa
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Jun 17, 2021 01:55
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End of Umineko 7/maybe Higurashi spoilers Is this what Higurashi feels like where everyone you like either kills each other brutally or is killed brutally? Still don't understand why Shannon/Kannon/Beatrice needed to kill everyone. Just leave the island with all your money, oh and maybe like ask Genji to get Battler's number????
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Jun 18, 2021 11:14
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fez_machine posted:End of Umineko 7/maybe Higurashi spoilers Is this what Higurashi feels like where everyone you like either kills each other brutally or is killed brutally? Still don't understand why Shannon/Kannon/Beatrice needed to kill everyone. Just leave the island with all your money, oh and maybe like ask Genji to get Battler's number???? I mean that would solve zero of their problems.
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Jun 18, 2021 12:20
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fez_machine posted:End of Umineko 7/maybe Higurashi spoilers Is this what Higurashi feels like where everyone you like either kills each other brutally or is killed brutally? Still don't understand why Shannon/Kannon/Beatrice needed to kill everyone. Just leave the island with all your money, oh and maybe like ask Genji to get Battler's number????
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Jun 18, 2021 12:45
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Gaius Marius posted:I mean that would solve zero of their problems. And hanging around for 2 years longer than you need to, dating both of your cousins, and plotting a series of elaborate murder mysteries is a solution? The island is toxic! Get out of there. You have so much money that you can hatch whatever batshit plot to attract Battler's attention again some place half-sane. (Just to be clear I'm frustrated with the character and not the writing) Nate RFB posted:Even if that were an option, that might only help Beatrice; what about Shannon and Kanon? Shannon would want to be with George, and Kanon wouldn't even want to leave the island until Jessica does. You're basically forgetting the point of the love battle in EP6. And all of this is leaving their feelings of anguish over their past abuse and trauma behind in a way that they collectively were absolutely not willing to do. I might not understand the timeline but don't both of those relationships happen post-epitaph solve? I've never felt that they were as into their respective relationships as the Shannon/Beatrice personality was into Battler but that might be getting into Episode 8 territory fez_machine fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Jun 18, 2021 |
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Jun 18, 2021 12:51
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the thing with each relationships is even if she isn't into some as much as others they represent different ideals/fantasies that are tied up to their identity. and while battler is the one who is most often compared to kinzo like, sayo is the one who takes after him the most in regards to magical thinking, going for the elaborate murder option here is just genetics lmao. sayo is just a dramatic person at the end of the day, for understandable reasons.
Snooze Cruise fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Jun 18, 2021 |
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Jun 18, 2021 13:19
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Umineko 4 half??way thoughts: I was going to do my spoiler dump at the end but holy poo poo this is a marathon 1. It’s interesting that for all this episode was initially set up as the ultimate showdown between meta-Battler and meta-Beatrice there’s been surprisingly little focus on the actual mystery aspect so far – in fact, we haven’t even got a crime scene yet. I’ve noticed that the characters on the menu screen don’t change to dead until someone else discovers the body, which means I’m taking this entire series of 13 fantasy deaths with an even bigger pinch of salt than usual. But the repeated emphasis on head trauma as cause of death puts Kinzo firmly in the frame for the first six killings in chapter 1. 2. Also this episode has done the impossible and made me give a poo poo about Maria. I’ve been struggling with a certain webcomic recently and it’s interesting to see this story pull off the difficult trick of making an abusive parent completely human and understandable without remotely minimizing or justifying their actions. I like how ambivalent Ange, and by extension the author, is about Maria’s reality-defying optimism and whether it’s a healthy thing or not. 3. I’ve got no idea if the prison underneath Kuwadorian using the same background as the treasure room Eva found means they're the same place, or if it's just asset reuse. If it's the former it seems a bit too straightforward, though I suppose there’s an interesting parallel between Kinzo’s literal and metaphorical treasure being kept in the same place. Also a secret tunnel leading out into the mansion opens up some interesting possibilities – I’m guessing it leads to the incinerator room??? 4. Ange’s story didn’t grab me at first but I like how low-key it is, and the focus on emotional resolution rather than solving the mystery. Speculation: the author of the bottle messages and envelopes is the human (suit-wearing) Beatrice who showed up in chapter 2. 5. The Chiesters being 3 rabbit buddies missing a 4th seems like a direct reference to Maria’s toy rabbits, but I’m not sure whether that’s just a neat parallel or actually plot significant yet. Trying to think of any other objects that directly correspond to furniture and coming up blank. 6. I thought I had a pretty decent theory about the nature of the meta-world, meta-Beatrice and the rest of the peanut gallery and their relationship to the game world but Kanon and Shannon being aware of the game recurring blows a hole in it. Unless it’s possible they’re aware of the loops, but not of the meta-characters but that just raises more questions than answers. Question for veterans – how close to the end am I? I’ve just seen George and Jessica get the ‘nothing personnel kid’ treatment, followed by everyone apart from Battler and Maria getting ganked and I have no idea how close I am to the end. Help
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Jun 18, 2021 19:47
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Gato posted:Question for veterans – how close to the end am I? I’ve just seen George and Jessica get the ‘nothing personnel kid’ treatment, followed by everyone apart from Battler and Maria getting ganked and I have no idea how close I am to the end. Help Including the Tea Party an ??? (which are very long and important for this episode), I would say around 3/4. If knowing where to take a break is super important, note that the Tea Party for this episode is too long to qualify as a Hugo Award Novelette (instead, it would be a mid-sized novella). MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jun 18, 2021 |
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Jun 18, 2021 20:00
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Gato posted:
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Jun 18, 2021 21:12
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fez_machine posted:And hanging around for 2 years longer than you need to, dating both of your cousins, and plotting a series of elaborate murder mysteries is a solution? The island is toxic! Get out of there. You have so much money that you can hatch whatever batshit plot to attract Battler's attention again some place half-sane. (Just to be clear I'm frustrated with the character and not the writing) Don't read this Gato to answer your question from your first post without answering it at all consider why the game juxtaposes Kinzo's early life with Sayo's furthermore. while the game is a game, and the way it presents it is a sort of play. step back for a second and imagine you inhabit the person of Sayo during the events of the play. as the game rather overtly says you cannot understand a mystery without understanding the people.
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Jun 18, 2021 21:54
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Gaius Marius posted:Also Umineko is long as gently caress It was! Umineko Episode 8 Spoilers: The ending wasn't quite what I expected. Much less definitive than I thought. Umineko is a game that demands far more closing reading than you go into it expecting, no skipping to the last chapter for the reveals here. Didn't even touch on Kannon/Shannon/Beatrice being the same person, although I don't know how you could miss it. Still think the author brushes over how people would react to incestuous rape (the servants/friends of Kinzo in particular here) or Battler being kind of chill escaping with Beatrice after his closest relatives had been killed (either by accidental explosion or because his mother and father had killed them). One of the reasons I love the first episodes is that people generally seem completely broken up by the deaths as they happen. Final Thoughts: Alan Moore, From Hell:  Georges Perec, Life: A User's Manual: quote:TO BEGIN WITH, the art of jigsaw puzzles seems of little substance, easily exhausted, wholly dealt with by a basic introduction to Gestalt: the perceived object – we may be dealing with a perceptual act, the acquisition of a skill, a physiological system, or, as in the present case, a wooden jigsaw puzzle – is not a sum of elements to be distinguished from each other and analysed discretely, but a pattern, that is to say a form, a structure: the element’s existence does not precede the existence of the whole, it comes neither before nor after it, for the parts do not determine the pattern, but the pattern determines the parts: knowledge of the pattern and of its laws, of the set and its structure, could not possibly be derived from discrete knowledge of the elements that compose it. That means that you can look at a piece of a puzzle for three whole days, you can believe that you know all there is to know about its colouring and shape, and be no further on than when you started. The only thing that counts is the ability to link this piece to other pieces, and in that sense the art of the jigsaw puzzle has something in common with the art of go. The pieces are readable, take on a sense, only when assembled; in isolation, a puzzle piece means nothing – just an impossible question, an opaque challenge. But as soon as you have succeeded, after minutes of trial and error, or after a prodigious half-second flash of inspiration, in fitting it into one of its neighbours, the piece disappears, ceases to exist as a piece. The intense difficulty preceding this link-up – which the English word puzzle indicates so well – not only loses its raison d’être, it seems never to have had any reason, so obvious does the solution appear. The two pieces so miraculously conjoined are henceforth one, which in its turn will be a source of error, hesitation, dismay, and expectation.
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Jun 20, 2021 14:02
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fez_machine posted:It was! I have seen a not-insignificant number of people miss it, usually because their brain fries at a certain point and they stop trying to work that out. fez_machine posted:Still think the author brushes over how people would react to incestuous rape (the servants/friends of Kinzo in particular here) or Battler being kind of chill escaping with Beatrice after his closest relatives had been killed (either by accidental explosion or because his mother and father had killed them). One of the reasons I love the first episodes is that people generally seem completely broken up by the deaths as they happen. One thing to note here is that Kumasaba and Nanjo are hilariously vulnerable (like a lot of people) to "have some money to stop thinking about it". Genji less so, but he also refuses to take any direct action in general. Regarding the Battler/Beatrice scene, that scene is entirely a fantasy variation, with the real one being similar in result but a lot less happy.
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Jun 20, 2021 20:00
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Cyouni posted:I have seen a not-insignificant number of people miss it, usually because their brain fries at a certain point and they stop trying to work that out. I think that the twist is also very unsatisfying if you don't have a better idea of what's going on, leading some people to prefer to seek out some other answer (and thus Rosatrice was born). Many people wrongly interpret it as a "split personality" thing, which would in fact be really lame if it were actually what was going on. Now that you're done, you basically have two choices to fill in the parts of the story that you didn't pick up on (which is pretty understandable - I think most people, including myself, didn't on first read): - Carefully read over the VN again, particularly episodes 1-4 - Read the Confessions of the Golden Witch part of the Umineko manga, which explicitly explains everything Once you do understand this stuff, a ton of things throughout the VN make sense (or have extra meaning) in hindsight. Episode 2 in particular is full of important things (which unfortunately aren't obviously significant when you initially come across them). Cyouni posted:Regarding the Battler/Beatrice scene, that scene is entirely a fantasy variation, with the real one being similar in result but a lot less happy. Is this actually the case, though? I don't think it's ever made clear either way whether that scene is exactly what happened. I actually don't think that Battler's reaction here is that strange. He's almost certainly in shock, and at the end of the day Sayo didn't directly kill anyone. Battler is also, at his core, a good person. Even when meta-Battler thought Beatrice was personally murdering all his family, he still constantly desperately sought some way to change his mind about her and leaped at the first opportunity to do so in Episode 3. I think that it's very possible that Battler would actually react kindly in a situation where Sayo confesses this stuff to him.
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Jun 20, 2021 20:24
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Ytlaya posted:I actually don't think that Battler's reaction here is that strange. He's almost certainly in shock, and at the end of the day Sayo didn't directly kill anyone. Battler is also, at his core, a good person. Even when meta-Battler thought Beatrice was personally murdering all his family, he still constantly desperately sought some way to change his mind about her and leaped at the first opportunity to do so in Episode 3. I think that it's very possible that Battler would actually react kindly in a situation where Sayo confesses this stuff to him. The only people I can compare him to is Alyosha from the Brothers Karamazov and Patera Silk from the book of the Long Sun. Cyouni posted:I have seen a not-insignificant number of people miss it, usually because their brain fries at a certain point and they stop trying to work that out. Also lol Furfur and Zepar's cloths are literally a combo of Shannon and Kanons. [/spoiler] fez_machine posted:It was!
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Jun 20, 2021 20:42
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fez_machine posted:It was! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjyDpHt-vSc You'll never be able to experience it again, but in exchange you now can enjoy a plethora of Umineko memes.
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Jun 20, 2021 20:45
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A quick few notes/musings after finishing up chapter 2 in Higurashi. - The cast review following 2 seems to imply that the curse could either be the work of people or supernatural. I'm def leaning to the supernatural root of all this. - I feel like the common link between his friends "turning" is when he lies to them and/or breaks the social taboos of Hinamiziwa. - I'm waiting for some more information about The Director. She/he was briefly mentioned in chapter 1 then just disappeared. - The teacher has a sprite and pops up pretty often during the story. If she's not the Director I'd still be that she's a big player behind the scenes. - The hell was that ending? People seem to be pretty high on chapter 3 so I'm ready to see where this thing goes.
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Jun 20, 2021 21:43
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Ok it's been a while since I said I would post Umineko theories but I've been busy. For anyone else playing, this is post- episode 4. First, I'm going to call out Battler for complaining while he's playing on easy mode. All he has to do is find an explanation for things happening without magic, regardless of how much actual sense it makes, but personally I want to at least attempt to come up with whos and whys and some level of consistency (and then promptly abandon these principles as soon as they become inconvenient but shh). Let's start, arbitrarily, with the Beatrice from episode 4. She exists, but who is she and how does she fit into there only being 17 people on the island? In the same way that Beatrice II is historical Beatrice I's daughter, who Kinzo locked away in Kuwadorian, there could be a Beatrice III, Beatrice II's daughter. This raises its own questions though, like why deliveries to Kuwadorian stopped if there's still a Beatrice there. It could be that Kinzo decided to use different people for deliveries for Beatrice III for some reason, so the previous captain wouldn't know? Beatrice III opens a lot of doors with things like Nanjo's death in episode 3 and who arranged the letters Ange found, but there's still the big problem of the red text that there are 17 people on the island. Someone has to be fake, Beatrice III in disguise, etc for this to work. Short of some incredible work of deception, it would have to be someone normally on Rokkenjima, so Krauss, Natsuhi, Jessica or one of the five servants. Short detour: Who is Battler really if he's not Asumu's son? He's Beatrice III's brother. Beatrice II died "around 20 years ago" and Battler's 18. "Around 20" is vague enough to sneak Battler's birth in before Beatrice II's death. This is somehow related to Beatrice III asking about Battler's sin. 07151129 could be referring to Battler's birthday on July 15 and Beatrice III's birthday on November 29, although this would cause problems with my next theory so we'll pretend it isn't. Jessica's also 18. Could Jessica be Beatrice III? In episode 1, Jessica survives to the end and her body is never found. In episode 2, while Jessica dies, I don't think Kanon's body is ever found, so he could carry on Jessica's plot after her death. Looking at the exact red text about Kanon's death, it's "Kanon was killed in this room". Kanon the furniture "died", replaced with a human who isn't called Kanon (I could phrase this better if I knew Kanon's real name but I'm going with the difference between "Shannon" and "Sayo"). This feels weird and tenuous but I think it's workable. When the other servants say Kanon looks like Kanon but isn't Kanon, he's changed enough from this that they can't believe he's the same person. Episode 3 causes problems mainly because if Jessica is Beatrice III, Nanjo's murder is still unexplained. "Jessica has not committed murder" can be explained by saying all other deaths in episode 3 were done by Eva (or Nanjo's mystery killer) and Jessica failed to actually do anything in that game. In episode 4, Jessica being Beatrice III would explain her knowing about George's death, and she could have faked her corpse, she's a smart kid. There's probably a scene somewhere that causes holes in this theory but if I don't remember it I don't have to address it! Bonus evidence: If Jessica is Beatrice III, it explains Natsuhi's room in episode 1 not being broken into, since she's the one who gave her the scorpion charm. Episode 1: Like Battler said, pretty much anyone could have done the first six murders. Eva and Hideyoshi are where problems start. As Lambda said, Beato red-texted that all corpses in episode 1 are both truly dead and who they appear to be, so Battler's fake death theory doesn't work. The servants plus Nanjo are in the kitchen and everyone else is in the parlor. Everyone in the kitchen is likely in on the scheme. Who exactly among them did the murder seems unimportant, but it was probably Kanon. I don't think Beato ever explicitly said there are no secret doors and such in Eva's room, but even if she did I think Kanon could sneak out the window after locking the chain. This is the sort of thing Beato could easily red-text if I was in Battler's position, but I'm not so I can say whatever the hell I want about windows. Kanon's death: It's red-texted that no human or dead person could have killed him, he didn't commit suicide and his death wasn't an accident. Some kind of spring-loaded stake-firing trap could work, while you'd think someone would have noticed it, it's dark in the boiler room and the others were distracted by Kinzo's body, so I can believe they just overlooked it. The courtyard door was opened in advance by Beatrice III when she set up the trap. Everything Kanon says about sabotaging the game is Beato's own personal interpretation. Parlor murders: Maria didn't kill them and their deaths were homicides. "Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo are not killers" is weird and vague. Is it saying they wouldn't normally kill people, which is pretty meaningless since the situation is clearly not normal? Is it saying they would never kill people in any possible timeline? At minimum, I'm going to take it to mean they did not kill in this specific case. I'd say Beatrice III killed them, but I've said she's Jessica, who's locked in the study at the time. Uhhhh they were poisoned somehow? Maria said she saw Beatrice come through the door as butterflies but Maria says a lot of things. Jessica told Maria where she keeps the stakes and about the "sing over the phone" plan using a telephone in one of the side rooms of Kinzo's study that the others just never noticed. Natsuhi's death: gently caress. Jessica is with the others. poo poo. I guess this is the scene I was forgetting that puts a huge hole in Jessica being Beatrice III. I've spent too long writing this post, I'll stop for now but I'm sure next post I'll blow this whole case wide open!!!
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Jun 20, 2021 22:34
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Spiggy posted:A quick few notes/musings after finishing up chapter 2 in Higurashi.  
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Jun 20, 2021 23:00
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Procrastine posted:Ok it's been a while since I said I would post Umineko theories but I've been busy. If you're following along with other people's speculation as I was, I highly recommend you stop reading Gaius Marius at this point. They're a little too good at figuring out mysteries and I'm very glad I forgot to check in with them for episodes 4 and 5 before I went into and finished Episode 6.
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Jun 21, 2021 00:14
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I didn't realize anyone actually read my posts. I apologize for being nearly blackout drunk while posting most of them
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Jun 21, 2021 01:55
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Ytlaya posted:Is this actually the case, though? I don't think it's ever made clear either way whether that scene is exactly what happened. The manga version of the scene has a lot less fantasy trappings. Doing a direct comparison, a lot more of the scene is exactly the same than what I remembered off the top of my head, but the main thing that changes it, in my view, is the section that comes before it, where it starts with Beato waking up in the VIP room. Gaius Marius posted:I didn't realize anyone actually read my posts. I apologize for being nearly blackout drunk while posting most of them I read them as well, fun read.
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Jun 21, 2021 02:21
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Gaius Marius posted:I didn't realize anyone actually read my posts. I apologize for being nearly blackout drunk while posting most of them Are you even playing Umineko if you aren't speculating and reading other people's speculation?
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Jun 21, 2021 04:24
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fez_machine posted:End of Umineko 7/maybe Higurashi spoilers Is this what Higurashi feels like where everyone you like either kills each other brutally or is killed brutally? Still don't understand why Shannon/Kannon/Beatrice needed to kill everyone. Just leave the island with all your money, oh and maybe like ask Genji to get Battler's number???? [Umineko full spoilers] As someone else said, leaving the island would not have solved any of the things that actually caused her madness. Neither would simply being reunited with Battler. I think an important distinction to be made here is that while Battler's return caused the crime to unfold in the shape that it did, but that is not the same as Battler being her motive for murder. He's not. In a way, the framing of EP7 leading you to think that's probably how it is is misleading; the story isn't kidding near the end when it says "and then critically important stuff happened but that was already covered in past games." EP7 doesn't REALLY give you the motive; it serves to give you a framework to understand the motive. The motive is, frankly, primarily covered in EP2 - an episode which, funnily enough, is not actually very concerned with Battler/Beatrice much at all in and of itself. EDIT: Oh, to put it another way - Lion as a symbol is actually really important here. Lion is the "miracle scenario" for Yasu in which she is able to attain happiness, a concept she's thrilled to sign off on - and yet Lion still lives on the island, is probably bound to it in some way or another for life, and does not have and never WILL have any of the romances that Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice do. So why is it Lion and Lion's circumstances that Yasu yearns for, seeing it as her sole potential escape? Raelle fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jun 21, 2021 |
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Jun 21, 2021 19:53
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Adding another murder mystery to my list, Your Turn To Die is easily one of the best murder mysteries I have ever played and it's not even done yet.
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Jun 21, 2021 21:21
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Yeah it's good, completely free too.
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Jun 21, 2021 22:15
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I have recently finished a long, highly contemplative play-through of Umineko, mostly while on video call with a close friend who had already completed it (with whom I could bounce off theories and my thoughts throughout, and occasionally cry openly to because I cry at the drop of a bucket). They were completely steadfast in not giving anything away and I really recommend this as a way of reading that VN. (You could say I was their miko) Steam is now recommending me things like Danganronpa, but are those...good? Or have I basically just been spoiled by Umineko and there isn't a comparative experience? (The only Visual Novel I've really played prior to Umineko was the Christine Love VNs, which range from 'good' [Hate Plus, Analogue] to 'outside of the remit of this thread', imo)
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Jun 21, 2021 22:18
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Funnily enough, I just started DR V3, though I'm not planning on really rolling out any thoughts about it until I'm done. Anyway Danganronpa is very popular. A lot of people like it! But as someone who also first cut their teeth on Umineko (and before that, Higurashi and Ace Attorney), in the grand arena of murder mystery visual novels I have never been a big fan of the franchise for a variety of reasons. DR absolutely failed to scratch any particular itch for me compared to stuff like When They Cry, Ace Attorney, or Uchikoshi's VNs. In terms of comparative experiences, 07th Expansion's other WTC works Higurashi and Ciconia are obvious throughlines. While it's no guarantee of course I think there is a decent chance that if you enjoyed Umineko you would also enjoy them; Higurashi is a classic for a reason. Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Jun 21, 2021 |
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Jun 21, 2021 22:29
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Dangan Ronpa is decent but it's a pretty different experience, it's more of a murder mystery adventure game along the lines of Ace Attorney. Other than Higurashi I'd also suggest House at Fata Morgana. It leans more into horror/tragedy but it has the gothic atmosphere and grand metafictional structure in common.
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Jun 21, 2021 22:57
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yeah i never got the danganronpa thing but a lot of people like them. i think they're bad at mysteries and stuff like ace attorney will make you feel way more clever. never got the appeal of the characters or the humor.
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Jun 21, 2021 23:03
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danganronpa is fun but it is very very trashy and its has some pretty sharp ups and downs in quality i'd definitely recommend trying out ace attorney first yeah
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Jun 21, 2021 23:08
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outside the remit of the thread is a funny way to say its illegal to talk about ladykiller in a bind here. such restraining laws— just like the restraints of bdsm found in ladykiller.
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Jun 21, 2021 23:11
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Danganronpa appeals to people who are more into the survival game kind of stories compared to the murder mystery stuff you get from ace attorney. I've always categorized them as closer to zero escape than AA even though they have trials, just because of the story vibes and what kind of character interactions you get
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Jun 21, 2021 23:30
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