(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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wiki giving the membership as 1000. that's like, I mean, pick the most obscure band you can think of, that band has more people into it than the frso
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Jun 24, 2021 23:56
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| # ? May 25, 2024 23:07 |
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communism is unpopular in america. even screamo is bigger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRwxKbAroN0
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Jun 25, 2021 00:32
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KaptainKrunk posted:uh no you see China should have remained an extremely poor but egalitarian society, and it definitely would have been better to isolate itself from the world instead of having control over the industrial heart of the world system China went from being a colonial outpost to the sixth highest GDP in the world under Mao and life expectancy doubled
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Jun 25, 2021 00:38
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Yossarian-22 posted:China went from being a colonial outpost to the sixth highest GDP in the world under Mao and life expectancy doubled all very true and doesn't change my point
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Jun 25, 2021 00:48
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Sometimes there is a real ceiling on how far you can develop within national bounds, and all the foreign investment drawn in through opening up really took the training wheels off of China's economy. Maybe you can argue over whether Dengist reforms came too quickly or that they didn't do enough to regulate marketization in certain areas, but the long run still sees a vastly improved material condition with the CCP firmly at the helm.The Voice of Labor posted:communism is unpopular in america. even screamo is bigger Being unpopular is what makes communism so cool.
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Jun 25, 2021 00:52
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Sometimes there is a real ceiling on how far you can develop within national bounds, and all the foreign investment drawn in through opening up really took the training wheels off of China's economy. Maybe you can argue over whether Dengist reforms came too quickly or that they didn't do enough to regulate marketization in certain areas, but the long run still sees a vastly improved material condition with the CCP firmly at the helm. yeah like if you wanna compare khrushchev vs deng, just look at how their countries are doing 40 years later. they really arent equivalent at all.
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Jun 25, 2021 01:03
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:with the CCP firmly at the helm.
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Jun 25, 2021 01:13
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There aren't many other countries integrated into the world system under communist party rule, so China is fairly exceptional. It's not like the class character of the CCP counts for nothing either. For the CCP to really take things in a liberal direction would mean overthrowing the mass base of the party and completely changing how it works from the ground up.
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Jun 25, 2021 02:11
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:yeah like if you wanna compare khrushchev vs deng, just look at how their countries are doing 40 years later. they really arent equivalent at all. it's a funny comparison because it's not like kruschev drastically reversed all of stalin's policies or something, he (afaik) mildly liberalized some stuff and shifted more production to consumer goods but did nothing like reform and opening up. it's like opposite corners of an honored/slandered predecessor vs. continued/reversed policies chart
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Jun 25, 2021 02:20
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:yeah like if you wanna compare khrushchev vs deng, just look at how their countries are doing 40 years later. they really arent equivalent at all. I'd say that was more the fault of Gorbachev and going full glasnost before perestroika but obviously there were problems preceding that. Nevertheless Khruschev's foreign policy was way better than Deng's when it came to supporting Cuba and Vietnam as opposed to Mujahedeen rebels Agree with there being hard limits on development without foreign trade but I'd say at a certain point there also comes a time when the plausible deniability of a country being socialist fades and that it's directly disproportionate with that
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Jun 25, 2021 04:42
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R. Mute posted:see, I can't buy this. either this boils down to 'it's communism as long as the government is communist' which is a child's understanding of marxism, or it supposes that the ccp will just turn the communism-capitalism knob back to communism in 2050 which just flies in the face of any experience we've had with capitalism so far. if they do manage to make the switch, it'd be through basically a second revolution and the cost would be heavy. the idea that because the state is supposedly communist everyone in power would be keen on making those necessary sacrifices is laughable. I'll gladly eat my words if i turn out to be wrong, but i just can't see it happening it's not that 'it's communist as long as the government is communist' it's that a burgeoning superpower run by a party whose mass base and ultimate telos is communist and who has a structurally integral role in the world system is far, far better than many if not all possible alternatives. obviously an economy of digital direct allocation would be way better, but we honestly don't know if a single nation state can do that without crippling its position relative to the world system. ya it probably won't happen in the current configuration of interests and forces and relations and whatnot - but we are supposed to be materialists. no current configuration lasts forever. in the meantime, it's a massive superpower where the communist horizon is still like, visible, and they build all kinds of sick rear end poo poo like fast trains and automated docks. it's not falgsc by a long shot but it ain't the bupkis fuckall we've got over here in liberal hellworld.
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Jun 25, 2021 08:59
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I guess my critique of established communist parties in power is the same as my critique of soc dems and also democrats, namely that "it's the best we've got" and "nobody's perfect" aren't really satisfactory to me. And I think the telos of nationalism ultimately defeats the telos of communism as CPs have to further and further prioritize the defense of the motherland and then eventually open it up to foreign investment to make peace with the capitalists All of which to say I'm sympathetic to the "international revolution" critique of leftcoms and Trots but I also get why maybe industrializing the hell out of the USSR and eventually beating the Nazis was an unequivocally good thing even if there was no longer enough power devolved to the Soviets to be properly "socialist" by a purist definition of the word. I can't blame leaders for adapting their countries to circumstance if isolation demands it. I guess I still find it odd that Deng gets a better rep than Khrushchev because they both acted similarly in difficult situations but Deng went much further in allying himself with the West and developing a capitalist mode of production. And even if saying Mao is "30% bad" wasn't an outright condemnation of Mao he was basically enough of Mao's ideological enemy to get purged by him and did everything he could to strangle the cultural revolution/Gang of Four as soon as he took power
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Jun 25, 2021 09:17
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Instead of being sad about China I would be happy about the DPRK.
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Jun 25, 2021 09:22
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There is one thing that I think everyone, even anarchists, need to comprehend: the USSR turned a poor backwater throwback into a world loving power that directly competed with the entire capitalist world system for decades after having done the most to fight the nazis.
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Jun 25, 2021 09:29
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imagine what the Soviet-Union would’ve looked like if they hadn’t lost their entire western industrial base and 20+ million dead. they might’ve actually realised communism!
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Jun 25, 2021 09:35
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and also if the united States didn't do all kinds of poo poo to gently caress with them. or send marines to help the whites. or kept sending aid even after WW2. etc.
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Jun 25, 2021 09:44
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imagine how epic the world would be if the new deal never happened and the USA was the flashpoint for ww2 as the axis and comintern struggle to send reinforcements for their chosen side in the civil war.
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Jun 25, 2021 09:45
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Larry Parrish posted:and also if the united States didn't do all kinds of poo poo to gently caress with them. or send marines to help the whites. or kept sending aid even after WW2. etc. the ones that I always think about are 'what if the US had agreed to allow a disarmed neutral Germany instead of splitting it' or 'what if the capitalist powers hadn't mounted a gigantic campaign of sabotage against East Germany after partition'
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Jun 25, 2021 09:50
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splifyphus posted:it's not that 'it's communist as long as the government is communist' it's that a burgeoning superpower run by a party whose mass base and ultimate telos is communist and who has a structurally integral role in the world system is far, far better than many if not all possible alternatives. That's true for as far as it goes, but surely you could have made the same argument for the USSR? And yet in the end a faction that controlled some layers of the executive basically told the party to gently caress off and die and that was it. And you could argue that you already have the kernel of an oligarchic system in China while that only grew in the USSR after its fall.
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Jun 25, 2021 10:05
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genericnick posted:That's true for as far as it goes, but surely you could have made the same argument for the USSR? And yet in the end a faction that controlled some layers of the executive basically told the party to gently caress off and die and that was it. And you could argue that you already have the kernel of an oligarchic system in China while that only grew in the USSR after its fall. The USSR was also disintegrating long before Yeltsin could cement the destruction of the soviets and transformation into Russia. It's way easier to do shock doctrine in the middle of an existential crisis. Direct comparisons between China and the USSR just aren't going to line up.
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Jun 25, 2021 11:14
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The revolutionary wave post-WWI where the international revolution almost happened throughout Europe bums me out the most. What Lenin wanted WWI to trigger literally happened between 1917-1923 and even spread to Iran but just failed to pick up enough steam, and then that was the green light for all the liberals and social democrats who actually took power to quash them by allying with fascists. In the alternate history scenario where Soviet Germany and Russia ally with one another, you'd better believe that even countries with radical republican less socialist uprisings like Ireland would have gone communist to fight the yoke of Yankee and British oppression in a second. Yossarian-22 has issued a correction as of 11:33 on Jun 25, 2021 |
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Jun 25, 2021 11:30
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The most bitter thing about it is how close the Bolsheviks were to winning the Polish-Soviet war.
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Jun 25, 2021 11:40
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The most bitter thing about it is how close the Bolsheviks were to winning the Polish-Soviet war. Would that have really changed something in isolation? Edit: Not sure if interwar domino theory really holds water.
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Jun 25, 2021 11:49
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Maybe, maybe not. But gently caress interwar Poland.
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Jun 25, 2021 11:59
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Maybe, maybe not. knowing our luck it would go Communist Poland > Germany invades in 1939 with the blessing of the western allies > genocidal hell war between the USSR and Germany with the US giving lend-lease to the Nazis instead, probably
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Jun 25, 2021 12:03
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Feels like we've been hosed since the SPD voted for those war credits.
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Jun 25, 2021 12:06
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If you had a time machine that could send one (1) thing to Lenin/Stalin/Mao/Fidel/whoever what would you send and when?
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Jun 25, 2021 12:13
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tokin opposition posted:If you had a time machine that could send one (1) thing to Lenin/Stalin/Mao/Fidel/whoever what would you send and when? neon genesis evangelion dvd boxset, 1923 no dvd player or anything. it would be a spur for soviet technological development in order to experience it
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Jun 25, 2021 12:16
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:There aren't many other countries integrated into the world system under communist party rule, so China is fairly exceptional. It's not like the class character of the CCP counts for nothing either. For the CCP to really take things in a liberal direction would mean overthrowing the mass base of the party and completely changing how it works from the ground up.
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Jun 25, 2021 12:17
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tokin opposition posted:If you had a time machine that could send one (1) thing to Lenin/Stalin/Mao/Fidel/whoever what would you send and when? A copy of the hit book by jorp, Rules of Reason or whatever
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Jun 25, 2021 13:41
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Yossarian-22 posted:The revolutionary wave post-WWI where the international revolution almost happened throughout Europe bums me out the most. What Lenin wanted WWI to trigger literally happened between 1917-1923 and even spread to Iran but just failed to pick up enough steam, and then that was the green light for all the liberals and social democrats who actually took power to quash them by allying with fascists. Liebknecht and Luxemburg were murdered in 1919, at least in Germany the social democrats didn't need to wait for the movement to slow down before allying with capital.
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Jun 25, 2021 13:58
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I think the appraisal of China by multiple posters In Here as being in a Keynesian honeymoon comparable to postwar Western socdem governments is accurate, I just struggle to see them taking a different path when the easy money dries up given how many relatively-recently bourgeois are in the positions of power within and influence of the party. sure they’ll knock off or discipline a billionaire every now and then which owns, I just don’t see that as indicative of anything strategically substantial. seems like a real balanced on the edge of a knife situation and I hope they can pull it off
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Jun 25, 2021 15:01
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tokin opposition posted:If you had a time machine that could send one (1) thing to Lenin/Stalin/Mao/Fidel/whoever what would you send and when? Send a copy of the time machine to Einstein, doh.
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Jun 25, 2021 15:26
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Orange Devil posted:Send a copy of the time machine to Einstein, doh. Is the Red Alert universe better than our current one?
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Jun 25, 2021 15:37
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namesake posted:Is the Red Alert universe better than our current one? depends, did you win as soviet or usa in the first one?
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Jun 25, 2021 15:55
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Truga posted:depends, did you win as soviet or usa in the first one? just lol at anyone who thought the Allied ending was canonical
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Jun 25, 2021 16:13
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i still don't even know the allied one, i only finished RA1 and 2 as soviets lol is RA3 good? i should probably play that sometime
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Jun 25, 2021 16:19
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Yossarian-22 posted:I guess my critique of established communist parties in power is the same as my critique of soc dems and also democrats, namely that "it's the best we've got" and "nobody's perfect" aren't really satisfactory to me. And I think the telos of nationalism ultimately defeats the telos of communism as CPs have to further and further prioritize the defense of the motherland and then eventually open it up to foreign investment to make peace with the capitalists nationalism is so associated with imperial agression in the us and europe that some leftists cannot grapple with nationalism as collective self defense against these aggressions, it's no wonder marxist movements in africa south america and asia have had national liberation in their vocabulary for ages, as far as i've talked to people leftcoms chalk those up to trying to appeal to the soviet union by ideological adherence but well apparently it's continued past soviet collapse so idk about that i came here to post this video and ask what you guys think about this *lefttuber* anyway, but seems more relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkbSYIyzmF0
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Jun 25, 2021 16:38
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i read Two Tactics of Social Democracy this week bc of discussion in another thread about America's dire lack of a working class political party and it got me down a hole. it was good poo poo, this Lenin guy seems pretty on the ball so to speak. one to keep an eye on think he's really going places.
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Jun 25, 2021 16:43
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| # ? May 25, 2024 23:07 |
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tokin opposition posted:If you had a time machine that could send one (1) thing to Lenin/Stalin/Mao/Fidel/whoever what would you send and when? I would send Lenin/Stalin/Trotsky a copy of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNacQaHJqEs
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Jun 25, 2021 16:45
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