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He has convinced himself that this is his style, and since an artist's style is a sacred, individual thing that can't be improved upon, he doesn't need to try.
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Jun 25, 2021 00:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The building in the first panel is falling over. Snout in the second panel is roughly three feet tall*, with the other two characters appearing even shorter. What in the gently caress are you talking about? First, that's such a desperate little nitpick to find a problem. Like, Legacy has an incredibly vast array of actual reasons to hate it. You don't have to go searching around to try and find more. That's the entire reason I've actually bothered speaking up about this. It is fun to hate-read legacy, but when we get to the point where we're actively looking for flaws to complain about or actively bashing it for the few things it does inoffensively, then it goes from being fun to borderline creepy. And "Oh no, in this exaggerated perspective shot designed to make the character seem small in comparison to the vastness of the scenery, if you compare him to background elements he's maybe a foot shorter than his actual height! (your estimate is off by the way, snout's closer to 4 3/4 feet tall in that shot) is definitely in the realm of "looking for problems." Second "That isn't the result of a lack of effort. It's incompetence." is some of the weakest loving bullshit. Tell me, what magic lets you know that a particular mistake can only be the result of a lack of skill? It couldn't be that maybe mookie took the easy way out and didn't double-check the proportions of these two images that he drew separately and just eyeballed it, making one or the other around 10% off? No, it must be because he actually doesn't understand how to draw. Of course. Again, Mookie has already proven that he's a competent artist. The fact that he's been phoning this in for the past 100 or so pages doesn't invalidate that, it's just one of the many reasons he is bad at making a comic, something I've said, repeatedly. Hell, if anything, it should be a bigger black mark on the comic: Mookie could be doing better. He has done better. Bismuth posted:for everyone that keeps saying mookie is a good/decent artist...hes been drawing these comics for twenty years and has barely improved at all. Thats not the mark of someone with genuine skill/talent, hes just barely above "dad who can draw stick figures" He's improved, rather dramatically, compared to the stuff he produced in early Deegan. Anyone who doesn't see that is among those who're actively searching for things to get mad about, or who hasn't actually bothered to compare Mookie's decent pages with his older work. And improvement, especially in a cartoony style, does not equal more complexity or even a drastically superior "look" to the comic. If you don't like the art style then you don't like the art style...that doesn't mean the art style is bad. Greater skill equates to greater consistency and fewer mistakes, as well as the ability to push your style more with more advanced perspective, framing and composition, all of which were apparent in the earlier chapters of Legacy compared to Dominic Deegan. And, let me also say that even if Mookie's art was static the whole "he's been doing it for 20 years!" BS is really loving lame. Like, let's be real...we have the smallest loving window in to Mookie's personal life. You do not know him. You do not know what challenges his life may or may not have brought him. Putting a deadline down and saying "if you haven't met my standards before this time, you're a failure!" is a lovely thing to do to any artist. People's journeys in mastering a skill are different and, frankly, the amount of time it takes is not your loving business. And that's another reason why I'm continuing this stupid argument: these criticisms have long ago stepped beyond "valid critique or mockery of the work" into "personal attacks on the creator.", which is where things get creepy and hateful.
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Jun 25, 2021 02:40
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Mookie also has the saving graces of not being Brooke McEldowy, or the guy who drew the rcaist libertarian wankfest comic.
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Jun 25, 2021 03:22
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oriongates posted:What in the gently caress are you talking about? The height of an average bench is 1.5 feet, and Snout is slightly under three benches (if we go by the right side of the room). In addition to the angle of the room, the characters are presented according to a bird's-eye perspective. If you imagine a "camera", the camera is positioned above them, and pointing down at their heads. Snout himself is also drawn from a third completely different angle, with the "camera" perpendicular to his torso. The cumulative effect of these errors is that the small bookshelves are the size of buildings, Snout is pasted onto the scene in a way that his feet appear to be sinking into the floor, and he is arguably not even stepping into at a room at all but gazing down into a rectangular pit. I'll attempt to draw a diagram for you, but it is very difficult to convey just how warped space is here. This is an artist with 20 years' experience failing to do basic one-point perspective while directly tracing a photo. e:  This is a rough approximation of how the scene would look if viewed from the side. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Jun 25, 2021 |
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Jun 25, 2021 03:23
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Honestly I think everyone is focusing on the art issues because nothing else is happening in the comic. While early Deegan had many, many problems the one thing it did have was pace. Stuff happened, usually daily. Legacy has the same problem as late Deegan where everything is drawn out for months, compounded by the speechless format. I just want them to get to the main desk and fish out the library card dammit.
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Jun 25, 2021 04:09
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Uhhh... Honestly, I thought people finding spots of a piece of art that bugged them less weird than this full page of whatever you're doing here, man.
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Jun 25, 2021 04:39
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RandomPauI posted:or the guy who drew the rcaist libertarian wankfest comic. Is it possible to narrow this down a little? Was it a furry one, or just regular humans?
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Jun 25, 2021 05:03
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oriongates posted:Again, Mookie has already proven that he's a competent artist. 
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Jun 25, 2021 05:31
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oriongates posted:He's improved, rather dramatically, compared to the stuff he produced in early Deegan. Anyone who doesn't see that is among those who're actively searching for things to get mad about, or who hasn't actually bothered to compare Mookie's decent pages with his older work. lol ok, you seem like you have a chip on your shoulder. Why are you so upset at people saying that Mookie isnt good? I've seen a lot of actual analysis and examples in here on why he isnt good, not just people being mean, and I havent seen anyone creeping on him or trying to get into his personal life. Saying its "creepy" that people are analyzing the art in a PIECE OF ART is weird as hell. People have been looking at the actual flaws in the art, both in the original DD and LoDD, and there is some weird stuff going on that people are speculating about. I'm not "putting a deadline" on him, I'm just used to seeing artists progress over time. While no, we dont know his personal life, usually when an artist fails to progress much its because they havent been doing art. Whats weird about Mookie is that he has been really consistently producing for 20 years, like no matter what is going on in his life he just keeps doing art, weekly, daily, etc. When someone is so consistently productive its weird to see so little change in a year, let alone 5, 10 or more. Its not about a "deadline" its about normal recognizable patterns. If a writer wrote for 2 decades consistently and you picked up a book and it was full of spelling and grammatical mistakes wouldnt you raise an eyebrow at it? The complexity thing has nothing to do with Mookie or his art. Even so though he doesnt really match up to your own definition of good skill? Hes super inconsistent in anatomy, scale, and matching his environments page to page, his perspective is a huge mess when he even bothers with it, and hes not really using his art well in a storytelling sense because hes not great with expressions, body language, conveying action, or the passage of time. His lines might be cleaner and poo poo, but I think he was actually doing a better job at conveying stuff when he was doing the original DD. Its extra odd because of how easy a lot of this stuff is to do, especially with the shortcuts he already takes. Are you saying this is "his style" and it is perfectly refined? Are you saying that he is creating poorly structured pages, muddy confusing environments, uncomfortable poses, and confusing passages on purpose? If he was drawing the same way but using that art to effectively convey his ideas then I would agree that it is just a style, but the fact that almost every time he posts a page theres questions about what exactly is going on, if he intended it to come across the way it does, or even where the characters are says a lot.
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Jun 25, 2021 05:40
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Mookie improved a bit over the first, what, year? of original Deegan. Once he hit a rut he was comfortable with he dug in and stayed there.
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Jun 25, 2021 05:45
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I agree with oriongates we all agree the comic sucks, it's tedious to go through mspaint diagrams of how the comic sucks Some of us have different opinions about where the baseline of "competent" is. Mookie is incredibly mediocre. He's no bee girl comic or moon over june artist. His flaws are those of being boring as gently caress and lazy as hell.
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Jun 25, 2021 06:24
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Mookie is a competent artist but I feel like getting mad at people pointing out how bad his art is, especially in this latest comic, is a weird hill to die on. I'd compare Mookie to Ben Garrison, not in the messages or political views they hold, but strictly as an artist. Especially compared to other political cartoonists, Garrison is a competent artist. He's (sometimes) capable of producing recognizable caricatures and at a surface glance his art isn't terrible to look at, it's a pretty simplified style that works well, he doesn't copy and paste like Gorrell, he doesn't crosshatch to hell like Ramirez, he doesn't draw hideous grotesque faces like Branco. He is competent. But if you actually look at Garrison's work from an artistic perspective, you see the massive flaws. You see the anatomy issues, you see the perspective failures, he's competent at drawing but he's not good at it and it shows. Mookie is the same way. He can draw decent approximations of the human form, some of the time, ignoring stuff like longtorso beardorc. He can draw okay landscapes, more or less. He's competent. But he's not good, and poo poo like just plopping Snout into his traced photo without considering things like "the size of a humanoid body compared to the setting" or "the angle a humanoid body would be standing at" is being loving bad at art. It's why he's only competent and not good, he can draw better than a lot of people but he still fails to understand the fundamentals of what makes good drawings. Bismuth posted:I havent seen anyone creeping on him or trying to get into his personal life. The closest we've gotten was when Mookie said he needed to get out of the house and take some time off in the woods, and some people started speculating about what kind of father/husband he was being. While the post was public and wasn't weird webdogging to get that info, I feel like trying to assume what kind of family man he is pretty close to over the line, kind of like when I mentioned earlier that in the old mock threads people were claiming that Mookie's wife secretly hated him because of how she looked in their wedding photos. Ultimately though yeah we've been pretty tame about weird creeping and speculation into his life, aside from just general "Dude has some serious hangups about sexuality" that's clearly obvious from his work. Mx. posted:we all agree the comic sucks, it's tedious to go through mspaint diagrams of how the comic sucks Look we've only had one red line drawing in this thread, we're nowhere near the old mock threads where we got one of those every day for...I wanna say it was CAD where that happened constantly? But I don't see what's tedious about criticizing how the books are the size of Snout's torso because that's how Mookie drew it, which shows that he drew that particular thing very badly. We've also had very little "holy poo poo the perspective is completely hosed in this" mostly because Mookie draws Snout standing around looking dumb at other characters, where there isn't much perspective, so I don't see how that's tedious either. If every time a comic got uploaded people were going "THE PERSPECTIVE" I'd understand, but that's not happening.
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Jun 25, 2021 06:51
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I'd honestly put his art as "good for high school". Like he is drawing at the level of my "oh, I like drawing" friends were at going into college (whether or not they were pursuing art degrees), with maybe more consistency, and that seems to be it. Personally, I'm not sure if that passes the bar for me for general competence. I honestly don't think he could manage pieces on par with the ones my "bad" art friends (the ones who tried but couldn't hack it professionally) turn out, because it feels like he still makes a lot of the same newbie mistakes high school artists do and everyone I know who continued doing art after high school worked past that. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Jun 25, 2021 |
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Jun 25, 2021 07:02
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Whatever you think of Mookie's art quality then and now I think all that needs to be said about how damning it is to his skill is how little, if any, improvement he has made despite doing daily art for the better part of two decades. Even if you want to argue that Mookie has improved since his DD days - and I would argue there is some slight improvement from early DD to late DD - the fact is that it's far, far, far, less than the amount of improvement you'd expect to see for someone who engages in the same activity daily for over a decade. Like go to loving Deviantart and find a random account that's been active for 20 years and by and large I will bet you that the amount of progress the artist shows between their most recent submission and their first will be loving light years greater than the difference between Dominic Deegan strip 1 and Snout's Big Adventure strip [whatever]
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Jun 25, 2021 07:45
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Mookie's problem is not really one of competence or incompetence, or even laziness, but of artistic narcissism. Mookie always has a defence in his brain as to why his shortcut is legitimate, or why his stories aren't trite and boring. Like an obvious reason for him to be doing the tracing is that he doesn't plan his stories ahead because to keep engaged he ad libs the plot, giving him no time to draw storyboards or set ups for his pages like other comic artists would. Overseeing is essentially a first draft that he puts out super quickly after figuring out where he wants to go next. But will he will defend this as not a terrible way to do things, but his unique artistic way to do this. I know people who are notionally "writers", self published obviously, who's writing shows exactly the kind of hallmarks Mookie's does. The writing is repetitive, it references pet obsessions the writer has, the main characters in obvious self insert, etc. it also avoids conflict for any character the author obviously likes. There's also a bit of a Dunning Kruger thing going on, because Mookie wrote about how these big expansive landscapes were impressive to him and that he was really enjoying making, but they really are not creative at all. When he isn't tracing all he draws his random rock faces! Ultimately, Mookie is unwilling to ever put a critical I was work because he's obviously insecure, and so he suppresses any negative feedback. If he was willing to just plan a little ahead so that he would have time to plan out is drawing a little bit, I'm sure he would amaze us with how much better his product would be. E: I mean let's all admit it, Mookie's tracing would be a whole lot less annoying if not for the fact that he wrote a big rear end blog post trying to defend it. Yes tracing the way he is is lazy, but the thing that gets my goat is Mookie pretending any sort of criticism is just haters. Just like when he defended meandering plot story structures and copying his own art. Artists can be too critical, but I think the greatest sin an artist can commit is being unwilling to take a critical eye to one's own work. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Jun 25, 2021 |
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Jun 25, 2021 07:45
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Also: Again, Mookie's narcisscism at work, because he wants us to know what a booksmart nerd Snout is, even though the characterization on that has been wildly inconsistent. It's not actually a love of books, it's a love of what books represent in terms of superiority of intellect. E: I think I can say that the reason I like Dominic Deegan so much still is that I view it essentially as a meta-textual performance of one man's own delusions of genius, juxtapose ironically the actual art he produces. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Jun 25, 2021 |
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Jun 25, 2021 07:54
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As much as I appreciate it stopping the gross wagging, it still seems really loving rude to just yank on his tail just because he's deaf.
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Jun 25, 2021 08:08
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I wouldnt even mind mookie using tons of shortcuts if he actually got somewhere with it. Like, if he took video game screenshots and traced them he would be able to get multiple angles of a building's interior/exterior done accurately with proper human scale. It would genuinely provide a better product as long as hes already tracing. I think if your goal is to produce something, and you already dont mind tracing, then might as well? Hes taking lazy shortcuts and then being lazy with those too Ive never thought mookie was THE WORST terrible artist, I said before hes considerably better than like 80% of "professional" newspaper comic artists, who also draw daily for 40 years and never get better, but I would never call them or him a "good artist" and its weird to me any time someone freaks out over him being called bad/mediocre.
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Jun 25, 2021 08:18
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Remind me, please: Who is Veth?
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Jun 25, 2021 10:53
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Twelve by Pies posted:As much as I appreciate it stopping the gross wagging, it still seems really loving rude to just yank on his tail just because he's deaf. It's similar to how Bee manhandled Snout to stop him from running toward the breakfast spread, or Daxethar flicking Snout's ears to get his attention. There are better ways to get a deaf person's attention, but Mookie chooses the ones that treat Snout in an ableist manner instead. maltesh posted:Remind me, please: Who is Veth? It was supposed to be Daxethar (weird-facial hair jerk orc)'s orcling assistant. What's confusing is that this supposedly unrelated orcling looks a lot like Veth, so it only highlights how much of this is a time-waster from Snout getting whatever info from Veth.
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Jun 25, 2021 11:14
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It's cool that so much nothing is happening, that even the writing recognises that nothing is happening, and snout is explicitly told to wait for something to happen.
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Jun 25, 2021 12:58
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YF-23 posted:It's cool that so much nothing is happening, that even the writing recognises that nothing is happening, and snout is explicitly told to wait for something to happen. It's like playing Fallout New Vegas or Elder Scrolls where the NPC tells you to come back at a certain hour to progress the questline. Except in those games, you have the goddamn option to skip hours so you don't waste your time.
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Jun 25, 2021 13:07
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Beelzebufo posted:Also: why does his torso look so long
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Jun 25, 2021 16:29
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Mookie I'm begging ya to maybe think about this comic for a half hour more and then maybe the idea of what to do next will come to you.
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Jun 25, 2021 16:34
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I was rolling my eyes at the jokes people were making about Orklings being a servant race, but it's starting to look like they are just little Dobbies, aren't they?
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Jun 25, 2021 16:38
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Fister Roboto posted:why does his torso look so long It looks long because it is long. It's way too long in proportion to his legs.
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Jun 25, 2021 18:09
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He does that often; he likes to draw the arms the same length as the torso so they end at the hips/crotch, but instead of just drawing short arms (he does that too) he lengthens out the torso
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Jun 25, 2021 18:28
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Breetai posted:The other thing is that if your landscape/background is the focal point for the comic because your characters are reacting to it in stunned awe then maybe you should do it well and even do something original! Honestly, I think this is what consistently makes these full-page or half-page landscape and interior spreads so annoying - that he keeps spending entire pages showcasing scenery that is completely unimpressive, and on every one Snout looks completely gobsmacked by what he's seeing. There's just such a disconnect in what is being shown and the character's reaction that it makes every page ring hollow. And he does it SO MUCH, too... so many pages have been purely devoted to "impressive" scenery and none of it is actually interesting. It's all just emphasized to be big while completely devoid of real detail or life. I found the wild edge scenery particularly exhausting because there was no interesting blending between biomes at all despite the fact that the comic timeline would have to imply the distance each area aesthetic covered could not be that wide. Just rigid transitions from scene to scene that looked completely disconnected from each other. And now it's all architectural stuff that I, personally, find more difficult than landscape design, and it seems like Mookie does too. The library building is just so boring inside and out because it's been scrubbed of every bit of detail and had them replaced with vague plant blobs. I honestly wouldn't care if his background were bad if he didn't spend so much time focusing on them and drawing attention to them as if they are supposed to garner a reaction.
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Jun 25, 2021 18:46
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amigolupus posted:It's similar to how Bee manhandled Snout to stop him from running toward the breakfast spread, or Daxethar flicking Snout's ears to get his attention. There are better ways to get a deaf person's attention, but Mookie chooses the ones that treat Snout in an ableist manner instead.
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Jun 25, 2021 19:00
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A lot of comics succeed not because every part is good but because they are good at making it so you never think about the parts that are poorly done. Mookie is basically the exact opposite, incapable of not drawing attention to the absolute worst fuckups he can manage, often making them the primary focus of a scene, or having absolutely nothing going on to such an extent that there's nothing to pull your attention away from how bad he hosed up
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Jun 25, 2021 19:01
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Well since to mook "no dialogue" means either no words or enormous dumps of text most of the non-text parts of the comic are just "deaf guy childishly reacts to surroundings" over and over
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Jun 25, 2021 19:06
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Zereth posted:Veth was the same height as everybody else, wasn't he? I don't think he's an orkling. Yeah, he has two tusks and wears shoes, too. Full Orc.
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Jun 25, 2021 19:06
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It's like a constant series of youtube reaction videos, except occasionally one of those might be interesting for a few seconds. Instead, it's just a constant stream of: "artist reacts to scene artist created" over and over and over again. 
PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jun 25, 2021 |
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Jun 25, 2021 19:18
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In a month or two for now,
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Jun 25, 2021 19:23
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Bismuth posted:I wouldnt even mind mookie using tons of shortcuts if he actually got somewhere with it. Like, if he took video game screenshots and traced them he would be able to get multiple angles of a building's interior/exterior done accurately with proper human scale. It would genuinely provide a better product as long as hes already tracing. I think if your goal is to produce something, and you already dont mind tracing, then might as well? Hes taking lazy shortcuts and then being lazy with those too Right: if the goal is to make impossible expressionistic compositions, why not just freehand it? If Snout is purposefully shrunk to make the library look more impressive, why not just draw a larger library with more shelves and books? The answer is that those premises are wrong. It wasn’t intentional. Making Snout smaller actually has a claustrophobic effect. Scaling everything in the background up makes the books appear closer than they would be in reality - which is the opposite of the obvious intended point that the library is expansive and holds many books. He’s not even tracing the right images to convey the ideas.
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Jun 25, 2021 20:43
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Mookie's repeatedly bragged about getting over that "artist hurdle" of being ~too proud~ to trace. He drew it once, he'll reuse it! Reference images? Just trace it! NO one can tell you no! But if you wanted to do this legit as a career, like, loving make the mock-ups in Sketch-Up and trace those. Build your poo poo in 3D it's realllly easy and takes very little time and you can make real good backgrounds that... wait for it... are consistent between panels. But no, he traces the first result of a google image search, which means the background has to cut to white instantly because he can't draw the background again because he doesn't have a photo of it, or suddenly the location looks completely different because he found a different thing to trace. If this were a hobbyist artist doing this for fun he'd be perfectly passable? Humans like to draw, who doesn't like to doodle now and then? As a hobbyist who doodles in his spare time who cares if he traces something because he wants to make a scene? That's fine! If he were some guy who likes to doodle fantasy poo poo in his spare time, maybe put it up on deviantart, hell humans need to create, get out there and do it have fun! But this is his career. This is his professional way of earning money. This is an inexcusable level of skill and an inexcusable level of laziness for someone who makes his money off this. Twenty years into his career, he should not be here.
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Jun 25, 2021 21:30
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Mookie really needs to buy one of those wooden artist mannequins, or even one of the 18" Spiderman figures that a lot of comic artists use for anatomy reference. And then he needs to practice drawing it and other life drawings. And then practice that again. And again. And again. And again. Instead, we're either seeing his direct traces, or freehand first attempts.
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Jun 25, 2021 22:15
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Tracing is helpful to help you learn things. But it's a tool to help, not a crutch like how he uses it. You shouldn't have anything in your finished product be traced. And yes, he needs to do actual life drawing. Like I guess he kind of did this with his softcore porn stuff if he used his wife and himself for reference, but again, it seems more like he traced than reference.
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Jun 26, 2021 01:23
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Rotten Red Rod posted:the 18" Spiderman figures that a lot of comic artists use for anatomy reference I suddenly need to know more about this.
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Jun 26, 2021 02:05
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Dalris Othaine posted:I suddenly need to know more about this. I mean that's pretty much it. It's a very posable spiderman figurine that got really popular a few years ago with comic artists and animators because it works better than the wooden mannequins for their purposes. I don't know if that exact model is still made, but you can find them on eBay and such. I think it's this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/SpiderMan-...4.m46890.l49286 Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Jun 26, 2021 |
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Jun 26, 2021 02:11
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