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it's clearly not the approach you could take with everyone but it loving owns that China re-educated Pu Yi to the point that he'd talk to people in the street about how good socialism was and what a piece of poo poo he'd been as emperor
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Jun 26, 2021 22:38
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Yossarian-22 posted:What about the labor market? Isn't the whole point of the economic zones throughout the country to essentially free reign to foreign capital? I don't think the Walton family is in any trouble in a way... The thing is, for example, China is the largest economy in the world today with full capital control, in and out. Corporations who put money in China do not have guarantee of mobility whatsoever, full stop. The "free reign" they have is very limited on where it actually matters, and even so, the business opportunities provided make them accept terms that they would not elsewhere
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Jun 26, 2021 22:40
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John Charity Spring posted:it's clearly not the approach you could take with everyone but it loving owns that China re-educated Pu Yi to the point that he'd talk to people in the street about how good socialism was and what a piece of poo poo he'd been as emperor reading his biography is a trip, the dude was absurdly dysfunctional due to his upbringing and was genuinely shaken to his core when he got outside his palace and realized that the common people didnt give a gently caress about him it makes me think about the current crop of nepotistic leaders and trust fund landlords and how many of them are incapable of tying their shoes without palace attendants
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Jun 26, 2021 22:41
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The Voice of Labor posted:maybe cuba can invite the batistas back so we can finally have a meaningful comparison of how communist countries treat their wealthy Cuba does invite rich expats to repatriate.
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Jun 26, 2021 22:53
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china has clearly got an ideological justification to just off the very wealthy when they get out of line, but the same stuff that keeps the party elites in line (the opportunity for serious material comfort through low-grade corruption/modest sleaze/insider trading etc) makes me deeply skeptical that those elites are going to remain interested in socialism over the long term. it seems to me that they're running high on having a great number of very lucrative investments to make which also enormously benefit the population, and that once they run out of those they're going to run into some pretty serious ideological contradictions. when they do, it's hard to see them choosing socialism, as they have no obvious incentive to do so.
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Jun 26, 2021 23:25
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The Voice of Labor posted:no, it's that the party needs to keep up appearances of the markets being regulated to maintain faith in the party. the emperor can't take all his clothes off at once. this makes ma a chauvin figure, someone who can be sacrificed so that it can be said that the system works that's an interesting analogy to make, because derek chauvin is not a member of the ruling class but rather a catspaw and servant of the ruling class. that's why, given enough popular pressure, the ruling class can be forced to dispose of him. no doubt there is a public relations element to the censure of jack ma - but that also says something about jack ma's relationship to real power
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Jun 26, 2021 23:38
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I wish we could have anti-revisionist conversations about communist countries other than China. How about Cuba or Nepal? It's like eating breakfast cereal every day for every meal. as long as we can all agree that the DPRK is the most Pure
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Jun 26, 2021 23:40
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:as long as we can all agree that the DPRK is the most Pure 
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Jun 26, 2021 23:59
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Nobody talks about Laos aside from the U.S. bombing it to shreds and making it landmine country. That's still officially a communist state
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Jun 27, 2021 01:08
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I don't know much about laos, but vitenam is a pretty good example of what happens when you aim for a socialist system while a capitalist one is still dominant: They bury you in sanctions until you open up for private industry. I know that youtubers ar unpopular, but Luna Oi did a great piece about how her country was forced into the capitalist market.
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Jun 27, 2021 01:24
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I don't know much about laos, but vitenam is a pretty good example of what happens when you aim for a socialist system while a capitalist one is still dominant: They bury you in sanctions until you open up for private industry. I know that youtubers ar unpopular, but Luna Oi did a great piece about how her country was forced into the capitalist market. Weren't there heavy sanctions placed on Vietnam after the war? The other communist country in Asia is Nepal, almost nothing is published about them.
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Jun 27, 2021 01:28
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V. Illych L. posted:china has clearly got an ideological justification to just off the very wealthy when they get out of line, but the same stuff that keeps the party elites in line (the opportunity for serious material comfort through low-grade corruption/modest sleaze/insider trading etc) makes me deeply skeptical that those elites are going to remain interested in socialism over the long term. it seems to me that they're running high on having a great number of very lucrative investments to make which also enormously benefit the population, and that once they run out of those they're going to run into some pretty serious ideological contradictions. when they do, it's hard to see them choosing socialism, as they have no obvious incentive to do so. yah it’s going to be a very high stakes saving throw when push comes to shove
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Jun 27, 2021 01:28
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Weren't there heavy sanctions placed on Vietnam after the war? Yeah, and they were forced to repay the debts of the regime they overthrew.
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Jun 27, 2021 01:37
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Ferrinus posted:that's an interesting analogy to make, because derek chauvin is not a member of the ruling class but rather a catspaw and servant of the ruling class. that's why, given enough popular pressure, the ruling class can be forced to dispose of him. no doubt there is a public relations element to the censure of jack ma - but that also says something about jack ma's relationship to real power while there's certainly capitalist class solidarity in crushing the working class, I'm not sure there's class solidarity in not backstabbing each other. in so far as bourgeois code of conduct is fascist code of conduct, the only unity is unity in being cool with bad things happening as long as they aren't happening to you
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Jun 27, 2021 02:27
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The Voice of Labor posted:while there's certainly capitalist class solidarity in crushing the working class, I'm not sure there's class solidarity in not backstabbing each other. in so far as bourgeois code of conduct is fascist code of conduct, the only unity is unity in being cool with bad things happening as long as they aren't happening to you yeah, the capitalists themselves aren't unified - but when was the last time you saw the capitalists in the west actually turn on one of their own rather than sacrifice a pawn? martin shkreli? that one dude who went to jail for the entire 2008 financial collapse? something is making jack ma up for grabs in a way that bezos, musk, and gates never will be, and it's that jack ma serves rather than is served by the government that lets him make his profits
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Jun 27, 2021 02:30
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The way capitalists have fully captured western governments they'll have to assassinate each other before any of them go to jail.
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Jun 27, 2021 02:37
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The Voice of Labor posted:no, it's that the party needs to keep up appearances of the markets being regulated to maintain faith in the party. the emperor can't take all his clothes off at once. this makes ma a chauvin figure, someone who can be sacrificed so that it can be said that the system works chauvin isn't a billionaire, dummy
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Jun 27, 2021 02:37
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Weren't there heavy sanctions placed on Vietnam after the war? My friend lived there for most of his young adult years and has nothing but good things to say about the Maoist government in Nepal. As he describes it under the liberals they had four hours of eletricity a day, then the Maoists came back in, stopped selling power to western corporations and everyone got power 24 hours a day lmao. Also India funded and directed an attempted coup in the direct aftermath of the earthquake in an attempt to set up a fascist ethnostate. Death to Modhi and his entire fascist goverment
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Jun 27, 2021 04:06
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mcclay posted:My friend lived there for most of his young adult years and has nothing but good things to say about the Maoist government in Nepal. As he describes it under the liberals they had four hours of eletricity a day, then the Maoists came back in, stopped selling power to western corporations and everyone got power 24 hours a day lmao. The Hinduvata types like to completely ignore that their is a majority hindu communist country right next to them lmao.
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Jun 27, 2021 04:07
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indigi posted:I think the appraisal of China by multiple posters In Here as being in a Keynesian honeymoon comparable to postwar Western socdem governments is accurate, I just struggle to see them taking a different path when the easy money dries up given how many relatively-recently bourgeois are in the positions of power within and influence of the party. sure they’ll knock off or discipline a billionaire every now and then which owns, I just don’t see that as indicative of anything strategically substantial. seems like a real balanced on the edge of a knife situation and I hope they can pull it off there's still a line struggle within the party and everything depends on the outcome of that struggle. right now the ccp line is and kinda has to be the dengist path. but if the balance of power significantly changes in china's favor, they're going to end up in an absolutely unique position in world history - a communist party at the top of the world system. the ussr was never in an even remotely comparable position. from there, there are a ton of new live options that could play out assuming the left wing of the party wins out. a global hegemon and world system lynchpin transitioning to high tech direct allocation would have enormous rolling effects around the globe. it could also take something comparable to another revolution for there to be sufficiently transformative options on the table. but expecting the worst possible outcome and having no hope is insufficiently materialist. there are always reasons to hope, and a country of billions where mao's face is everywhere a beacon can't not be one of those reasons, especially in times of darkness and reaction.
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Jun 27, 2021 08:40
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AnimeIsTrash posted:The Hinduvata types like to completely ignore that their is a majority hindu communist country right next to them lmao. Yep, and the higher developed regions in the south of India are run by commies in Kerala and a guy literally named Stalin in Tamil Nadu
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Jun 27, 2021 09:24
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imo the best hope for china's ascending from a socialist point of view would be that they, as nominal communists, cannot easily justify hardline anti-communist policy in the way that the US can. as the US' reach declines, the room to maneuver should increase on the hard left. i'm skeptical of this mattering before we start seeing serious environmentally triggered collapse, though
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Jun 27, 2021 12:41
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Yossarian-22 posted:What about the labor market? Isn't the whole point of the economic zones throughout the country to essentially free reign to foreign capital? I don't think the Walton family is in any trouble if the free reign of capital is limited to a few special geographic areas then that would imply that the market is, in fact, very tightly regulated
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Jun 27, 2021 14:36
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I do love it whenever the lily white anarchist/ultra/trot "no one in the CPC actually believes what they're saying, they're just establishing political continuity to trick the guileless Chinese" talking point rears its head. It really is a staple of Western left discourse.
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Jun 27, 2021 17:37
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people across the world badly want to be led by socialists, which is why all xi has to do to get those approval ratings is call himself a socialist, and why we would win the immediate allegiance of the working class here in the states by running third-party socialist candidates
Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 17:52 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 17:43
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Ferrinus posted:people across the world badly want to be led by socialists, which is why all xi has to do to get those approval ratings is call himself a socialist, and why we would win the immediate allegiance of the working class here in the states by running third-party socialist candidates no it’s just the terminally fatalistic online left, who are trapped between the nihilistic despair of their own alienation and the deeply internalized racism that comes from growing up in the heart of the world’s most rapacious, evil empire. they can’t let go of their chauvinism long enough to take the obvious existence of a more advanced society as the beacon of hope that it is. detached from any kind of meaningful class project, they are chemically addicted to the same corrosive pessimism that the social networks use to make billions of dollars a year
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Jun 27, 2021 18:49
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Deified Data posted:I do love it whenever the lily white anarchist/ultra/trot "no one in the CPC actually believes what they're saying, they're just establishing political continuity to trick the guileless Chinese" talking point rears its head. It really is a staple of Western left discourse. they will be quick to bring up the dogma of "politicians are all liars" but, are they really? in the US every one of our leaders are all pretty open about who they are, and their commitment to capitalism, imperialism, white supremacy. even our "progressives" will still support the tools to maintain it even if they do hide behind nicer slogans. they are really no less idiotic than the republicans who believed obama was a secret marxist.
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Jun 27, 2021 18:50
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https://twitter.com/Karl_Was_Right/status/1409201142819553283
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Jun 27, 2021 18:51
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Centrist Committee posted:no it’s just the terminally fatalistic online left, who are trapped between the nihilistic despair of their own alienation and the deeply internalized racism that comes from growing up in the heart of the world’s most rapacious, evil empire. they can’t let go of their chauvinism long enough to take the obvious existence of a more advanced society as the beacon of hope that it is. detached from any kind of meaningful class project, they are chemically addicted to the same corrosive pessimism that the social networks use to make billions of dollars a year i wonder what insane racist bought you that av/title good loving god
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Jun 27, 2021 18:51
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Communism and socialism are fail xD
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Jun 27, 2021 18:52
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what is that from lol.
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Jun 27, 2021 18:58
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Judge Dredd Scott posted:i wonder what insane racist bought you that av/title good loving god some weirdo got mad they couldn’t be racist in the doomsday econ thread
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Jun 27, 2021 18:59
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Centrist Committee posted:some weirdo got mad they couldn’t be racist in the doomsday econ thread pathetic
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Jun 27, 2021 18:59
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In Training posted:what is that from lol. https://twitter.com/jackdwagner/status/1407395998742106112
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Jun 27, 2021 19:04
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Centrist Committee posted:some weirdo got mad they couldn’t be racist in the doomsday econ thread do you want it blanked cuz i want to blank it
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Jun 27, 2021 19:21
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Deified Data posted:I do love it whenever the lily white anarchist/ultra/trot "no one in the CPC actually believes what they're saying, they're just establishing political continuity to trick the guileless Chinese" talking point rears its head. It really is a staple of Western left discourse. I don't think namesake was saying this at all and there are plenty of young Maoists in China who believe the CPC is full of poo poo
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Jun 27, 2021 19:29
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Tiler Kiwi posted:do you want it blanked yeah that’d be great
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Jun 27, 2021 19:29
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Centrist Committee posted:yeah that’d be great its weird how often people that're constantly mad at/about "tankies" turn out to be massive racists. wonder if theres a correlation there
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Jun 27, 2021 19:41
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i care deeply about the chinese people's plight under their authoritarian regime, as evidenced by how i cleverly use a racist joke from the 90's to epically own my enemies online
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Jun 27, 2021 19:45
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Judge Dredd Scott posted:its weird how often people that're constantly mad at/about "tankies" turn out to be massive racists. wonder if theres a correlation there nah, couldn't be. no connection
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Jun 27, 2021 19:47
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