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Harrow posted:My guess is it'll be like an MMO, really. Maybe they increase the level and talent rank cap some day. Some players stick around to do the long-term grind and make their characters as strong as possible, some drift away and come back for big expansions like Inazuma's release or seasonal events, things like that. Maybe they'll add new activities that you do to get artifacts or weapon upgrade materials for more variety in how you grind. I thought it might be like that too. In any case, I hope they do something with it because it's already pretty repetitive and just having new characters and places doesn't have much gameplay incentive in it I think. Bloody Emissary posted:Raising the level cap is only a temporary fix for steamrolling new stuff; practically speaking, it's just adding more grind to the game before you hit the steamroll-everything point again. They could use world level to balance things out but eventually they'd have to increase the level cap with it I guess. But even a temporary fix is something.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:03
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You can’t steamroll poo poo in a boat.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:06
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Any fix is temporary, really. Like with an MMO, there's always going to be a cycle of new challenges that are harder than you're used to -> get new goodies by doing those challenges that make them easier -> it's easy again -> new thing comes around and is challenging again -> repeat.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:06
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Harrow posted:Honestly power creep is sort of inevitable in gacha games, whether through increasing the level cap or just increasing the power cap, with new characters who are just plain stronger at level 90 and fully kitted out than characters can be right now. There'll always be a new grind, stronger characters, and eventually the current best characters will seem quaint. In most gacha games, characters are just stat blocks with a png attached though. In Genshin there are significant play style differences. New releases could also synergize well with current "low tier" characters and give them a comp to live in. Not saying that power creep won't happen. It is, after all, something that can even happen accidentally. Just that the design space will tend towards "situationally useful" rather than "totally obsolete".
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Jun 27, 2021 21:08
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play different characters or get your kicks in abyss and all the combat events they put out i don't really feel like overworld stuff needs to offer much combat difficulty, and it carries itself fine on having new locales/assets along with the story and puzzles. though Inazuma is dropping entirely new enemy types so even at current top difficulty there's new stuff people will have to learn to deal with. expanding the WL system is all fine and good but what amounts to "enemy has more HP and hits harder" is not a proposal that really excites me compared to say the current event's handling of difficulty.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:09
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Hahah, I've no idea how people get more than 1000 points out of the new challenge. That ice field covers like 80% of the arena? Hope that's not something you have to grind in Inazuma.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:10
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Pope Urbane II posted:In most gacha games, characters are just stat blocks with a png attached though. In Genshin there are significant play style differences. New releases could also synergize well with current "low tier" characters and give them a comp to live in. Yeah, that'd be part of managing the power creep well. Like ideally, a couple years from now, current good 5*s will still be good if you keep up with building them, even if there are better characters. I do wonder if we'll ever start seeing alternate, stronger versions of existing characters, like "what if" versions of them. I'm imagining alt versions like having Diluc and Kaeya switch places, so there's Favonius Knight Diluc and Darknight Hero Kaeya, or Electro Delusion Childe, things like that. New characters are more exciting for now but there's definitely a room for having fun with alt versions of popular characters too.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:12
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Stare-Out posted:I was wondering today about the long-term of this game; is it going to continue like this where you get new zones and new characters and have go through the same cycle of leveling them up while having triple-crowned level 90 characters with level 90 weapons absolutely destroying new content? Are they going to raise the level cap at some point so you don't just steamroll through new stuff after figuring out the mechanics? You can always be F2P. Then the game will always feel difficult in some areas since taking a character up to level 90 takes much longer for players who can't resin refresh, purchase resources, and/or have additional revenues to earn primogems. (That being said, some players can steamroll on level 100 enemes in the abyss via level 70 characters, so it's less about the level cap and more about the artifacts and/or team comps.) With the F2P restraint, the grind will be much longer with each new characters, and you can enjoy that instead of having a raised level cap. If you are F2P, maybe set a new goal for yourself like getting max points in the Vagabond Sword Event, but overall, most of the game is not difficult. The game could be more like Dark Souls where enemies have more complex attacks and attack patterns, some of which can even ignore our stats to ensure that we can't just steamroll via our investments, but that would be less accessible, especially mobile players, and Genshin Impact seems like it game designed for a wide audience.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:14
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Not that I'm against having the overworld being the more chill part of the game but I hope they do something interesting with it where you'll get challenged and your investment in characters can pay off. Saving that stuff for the Abyss and timed events doesn't seem like a great idea because for most players it's such a slim part of playing the game where one of the major, if not only, hooks is to level up your characters and getting stronger. I'm very curious to see if Inazuma addresses any of that or if I can just Klee in and drop a couple of bombs and collect the reward like I'm doing with just about everything right now.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:16
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Flair posted:You can always be F2P. Then the game will always feel difficult in some areas since taking a character up to level 90 takes much longer for players who can't resin refresh, purchase resources, and/or have additional revenues to earn primogems. (That being said, some players can steamroll on level 100 enemes in the abyss via level 70 characters, so it's less about the level cap and more about the artifacts and/or team comps.) With the F2P restraint, the grind will be much longer with each new characters, and you can enjoy that instead of having a raised level cap. If you are F2P, maybe set a new goal for yourself like getting max points in the Vagabond Sword Event, but overall, most of the game is not difficult. That's true. I'm not strictly F2P but I haven't whaled or anything so what I have now I something I would've had in a couple of month's time anyway pretty much. F2P does add challenge but the challenge is ultimately just time as the game is now. Currently it's a very distinct separation between challenge and accessibility where the majority of the challenge is separated into its own thing that is ultimately unnecessary as no one needs to clear the abyss to progress or access new content or anything. Not that I'd want that to be the case but they could add some of that into the rest of the game.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:20
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This is an adventure game.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:20
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To expand instead of just being a glib dumbass, the majority of the challenge in the game is like exploration and collection based. They likely won’t add more direct stamina increases because that would have a larger impact than simply leveling a talent to 10 vs 9. There’s tons of ‘not my character pressing attack’ content in the game and that is what’ll keep expanding. How much of Klee’s questline was just you running around Mondstadt talking to people? How much of all the hangouts they’ve added? Also you don’t need a strong Jean to yeet enemies off of platforms into the ocean (though you do need a leveled up one) or a strong Barbara to soak bosses and then one shot them with bombs. E: Like combat is cool and is a part of the game and it wasn’t a focus in the islands but there was plenty of moments in Dragonspine where the game challenges you so I would expect stuff like that in Inazuma totally, and you will be rewarded for having a strong rear end team. But like that ain’t the focus. And I *strongly* disagree with the idea that having new places doesn’t have much gameplay incentive that’s like all the gameplay incentive the full incentive! What does the main quest even ask people for now anyways? World level 40? People would be at like world level 70 now if they didn’t break the scaling, and hell they even just turned it off after 60. I would expect eventually yes that gets changed and we do go up to 100 but that’s seems very much not what they care about at all for the foreseeable future. kater fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 21:55
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I can't wait for them to add a fighting game character like Smash Bros did. Or maybe just an action game one like Kiryu or Bayonetta. Someone with combos that don't have cooldowns. Sorry to all the mobile users but you've gotta be able to do an infinite symbol to use most of their abilities!
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Jun 27, 2021 22:16
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This is from another pve only game that's on its 6th year while also dominating revenue in Japan while being as stale as year 1 gameplay wise: https://twitter.com/ToastCrust/status/1278642923446235136 Genshin will live and make oodles of money because of its characters. The 99% of people who will roll for Ayaka or Yoimiya or Baal is because: -they are cute -Their voice actor is popular -Their part in the story had great moments -they love their playstyle -gap -gap -gap -Oh man they're gonna help me get 600 primo every two weeks at the abyss better
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Jun 27, 2021 22:18
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Where's the 4th trounce domain boss? I have stomterror, wolf dhavilin, and childe with my main story completed. I got to the top of the mountain and unlocked the domain but haven't found a trounce boss there yet. I assume it's somewhere in the mountains since unlocking all the geo-pillars wasn't the 4th boss.
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Jun 27, 2021 22:37
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Sanctum posted:Where's the 4th trounce domain boss? I have stomterror, wolf dhavilin, and childe with my main story completed. The 4th boss is linked to Zhongli's character quests, of which there are two acts released. If you haven't done those yet then you'll need to unlock them with the daily commission keys and play through everything until you get to the boss fight.
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Jun 27, 2021 22:43
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I wish they would add just enough stamina increases to get to a nice number like 300. Or just rebalance things so the current maximum is 200 but it's functionally the same amount of stamina (like rebalance stamina consumption so you don't actually have less stamina your max is just a nice round number). I just like neater numbers 
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Jun 27, 2021 22:56
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Tae posted:This is from another pve only game that's on its 6th year while also dominating revenue in Japan while being as stale as year 1 gameplay wise: That game doesn't pull in nearly what it used to even with it's first big update in over a year. As far as I've been able to tell though for the past decade Japan is all but brainwashed to throw as much money as they possibly can at it's particular publisher (which has a massive practically all encompassing social media presence in Japan that they can just turn on like that) regardless of the effort level they put forth in whatever it is that they are doing. The one that seems to dominate the mobile game revenue these days in Japan pretty consistently is Uma Musume Pretty Derby (also a company that Japan just seems to positively throw money at for often really arbitrary reasons) for what it's worth, which to me isn't much. Then there's Monster Strike which is even older than all of the above and still a huge hit over there. The vast majority of all revenue ever grossed for mobile game titles comes specifically from Japan China, Korea cause that's where social media has turned it into this unhealthy obsession and somewhat overwritten what they consider gaming to mean essentially gacha smartphone games. In the rest of the world it's usually social apps and media programs that make the most money. I'm pretty glad I don't have anywhere even remotely close to a ridiculously obsessive approach to free to play titles or like much of anything really. Genshin Impact seems to be about the only one of these that has really caught on in a super huge mainstream way outside of Asia. Probably in large part due to the massive marketing budget and influencers they got to shill the game when it first started up and the whole actual noticeable effort in design part as opposed to just shovelware mission based RPG using a popular license collabs and pretty pictures stuff.
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Jun 27, 2021 23:03
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Kale posted:That game doesn't pull in nearly what it used to even with it's first big update in over a year. As far as I've been able to tell though for the past decade Japan is all but brainwashed to throw as much money as they possibly can at it's particular publisher People absolutely don't throw money just because of the publisher, considering Delightwork's other mobage Sakura Revolution died in 6 months. But my point is that power creep is not a major point for a PVE game in the long run for Genshin, it's everything else they do in regards to characters and story and events that'll keep the audience.
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Jun 27, 2021 23:12
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Kale posted:Genshin Impact seems to be about the only one of these that has really caught on in a super huge mainstream way outside of Asia. Probably in large part due to the massive marketing budget and influencers they got to shill the game when it first started up and the whole actual noticeable effort in design part as opposed to just shovelware mission based RPG using a popular license collabs and pretty pictures stuff. As someone else pointed out to me a while ago, AAA gacha games are already mainstream in the West--we just call them "loot boxes" or "card packs" and put them in FIFA. But yeah, Genshin Impact is a real breakthrough because it's not just another gacha phone RPG. It's a big open-world game with exploration mechanics lifted from the wildly popular Breath of the Wild, excellent production values, pretty graphics and music, and an engaging action combat system. Even people who otherwise wouldn't be into a gacha game can get into it because it's just a really good game, gacha or not. Tae posted:But my point is that power creep is not a major point for a PVE game in the long run for Genshin, it's everything else they do in regards to characters and story and events that'll keep the audience. It can become an issue if content eventually comes out where, say, Diluc just isn't quite cutting it anymore, but a new pyro 5* recently came out and can handle it much better. That'd be when it becomes a real problem for a PvE game.
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Jun 27, 2021 23:14
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Kale posted:Genshin Impact seems to be about the only one of these that has really caught on in a super huge mainstream way outside of Asia. Probably in large part due to the massive marketing budget and influencers they got to shill the game when it first started up and the whole actual noticeable effort in design part as opposed to just shovelware mission based RPG using a popular license collabs and pretty pictures stuff. I've also looked at other gachas specifically and they don't offer a tenth of what Genshin offers, the closest is Honkai and I just like everything Genshin does better. I also think the game pushes out more content than anything else out there by like a factor of 2x. I know we run out of things to do almost immediately but the variety of stuff released on a regular basis is just wild. No Wave fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 23:25
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Tae posted:People absolutely don't throw money just because of the publisher, considering Delightwork's other mobage Sakura Revolution died in 6 months. I'm not talking about the developer I'm talking about it's Publisher Aniplex Inc. which is a division of Sony and the marketing and social media engagement machine behind basically every big anime otaku thing from Japan in the last 10-15 years. Nobody over there really gives a gently caress about Delightworks much as people seem to think they're the big player in this instance, which I really don't know why people still or would ever think they matter at all really. Nor do I get why they are surprised that they blew it with Sakura Revolution and trying to go out on their own with just Sega publishing. But yes that and the actual effort in game design thing is what's going to keep Genshin Impact a thing globally. There's just like unusually lots to do and solid content updates for a game using the gacha mechanic for monetization. I remember trying to play Fire Emblem Heroes even casually for a couple years and found even then not worth considering much because there was just never anything to do in it and it had like 15 minutes of new way to easy to P2W content a month to like 4-5 banners in the same time period, which kind of showed me it's priorities. Sadly that's kind of the standard for mobile phone games in general. I'm honestly kind of floored at how involved just the temporary summer quest was for this game. Like it was legit really fun and had a lot too it for a F2P game again using gacha. It's practically a revelation to see this kind of approach to a game like this and like there's legit a majority effort going into things that aren't banners for a change. Even then the effort level on the character trailers for them though puts just about everything else to shame. The typical standard in the mobile game industry is to just run a social media stream and have a bunch of voice actors and magazine shills show pictures of a few characters and some vague details about them and their stats and act really really excited about it. If your lucky maybe they get a rushed 15 second or 1 minute trailer with some animated key art cuts of whoever is going to be on the banner and maybe a couple seconds spent on each one maybe turning and looking at the camera or something. It doesn't really tell you anything about them really. This game they seem to have a particular motif they're going for in the overall artstyle for lore type stuff yes, but have also been tailoring trailers to characters in surprisingly craft ways that I think connect on a global scale. Kale fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 23:26
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the way genshin's party making gameplay benefits from being a gacha is kinda brilliant and I'm not sure how you would translate to some other system.
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Jun 27, 2021 23:30
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I also really wanted to dunk on this game when it first came out cause the whole gacha thing has kind of taken the piss out of Japanese/Asian gaming as far as I'm concerned and diverted far too many resources from just frankly real rear end games (yes I'm one of those) but I also believe in credit where it's due and aside from FFXIV it's about the only one I see myself sticking with for anything length of turn that follows any sort of subscription model. I have plenty of self-restraint to never end up throwing money at a random chance to get a character thing, it's the lack of effort in game design that I have the real issue with when it comes to them. The only character I kind of really want from this game is Ayaka because yes I'm also one of those that likes the Japanese voice actress for her (does anybody not really?) and she seems to hit the right notes, but if for some reason my saving for it doesn't work out (currently at about 140 Intertwined fate) I can actually live with it just fine. No Wave posted:I think the game is honestly amazing. I sincerely think this is the most interesting/exciting/fun game on the market and it's not even close. The awkwardness of the party system and elemental reactions is just right and every game I play I wish I could switch between four characters that are incapable on their own. This doesn't feel like a rehash of something that came out twenty years ago, elements from different games are mixed together in a really bold way and there are a lot of very talented people making these decisions more or less work. This games lore doesn't seem anywhere near as impenetrable as Honkai Impacts does, but I also think it might be because it seemed to have an English adaptation team ready to go for it to make sure things clicked with an English speaking audience that might just randomly pick it up cause it's F2P. I also don't know if that's something to do with the wiki for it or not but I swear I went positively cross-eyed trying to make anything of it a few years back. I just went and checked it and it seems totally re-written. The only thing I know about it is apparently the main character eventually turns into the main antagonist and is an omnipotent being of sorts so very anime. Kale fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 23:40
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Kale posted:The one that seems to dominate the mobile game revenue these days in Japan pretty consistently is Uma Musume Pretty Derby (also a company that Japan just seems to positively throw money at for often really arbitrary reasons) for what it's worth, which to me isn't much. Then there's Monster Strike which is even older than all of the above and still a huge hit over there. Did Puzzles and Dragons go out of fashion? That one was horrendously popular, last I heard, though IDK where it stood in terms of revenue. Harrow posted:But yeah, Genshin Impact is a real breakthrough because it's not just another gacha phone RPG. It's a big open-world game with exploration mechanics lifted from the wildly popular Breath of the Wild, excellent production values, pretty graphics and music, and an engaging action combat system. Even people who otherwise wouldn't be into a gacha game can get into it because it's just a really good game, gacha or not. I've played and abandoned a bunch of gacha phone RPGs (Puzzle and Dragons, Summoners War, Onmyoji, Dragalia Lost, Monster Super League, Princess Connect RE:Dive, Pokemon Masters, and Lord of Heroes currently) and the quality of Genshin Impact's core gameplay loop really shines in comparison. In a post I read yesterday that discussed the failure of Sakura Revolution relative to FGO, the writer touched upon a fundamental flaw of a lot of mobile gachas: "a lot of mobile games seem to ... use 'making the game play itself' as [a] substitute for 'making the game fun to play.'" With most phone gachas, you have the following progression: actually play the levels manually and enjoy the story -> hit a difficulty spike you need to grind past -> tend to the automated grind throughout your day for a while like you're playing a plate-spinner game IRL (yech) -> go back to actually playing the game -> rinse and repeat previous the steps until you finish the story -> do raids and PvP until you get tired and quit. Back when I was playing Princess Connect RE:Dive, I thought the way that the game let you skip straight to the rewards for grinding levels you'd previously finished perfectly was an amazing time-saver. It made the game significantly more relaxing than the other phone gachas I'd played—I could use up my energy immediately, and I never had to check back in periodically to see if the game had finished running itself. It was still essentially pretty much the same as the rest: an automated management/plate-spinner game, outside of the story and PvP. Genshin Impact isn't like that. The core gameplay is still fun after eight months of playing near-daily. You don't progress by "managing" the game's play-itself feature, you progress by playing the game. That really makes it a different beast from the mission-based phone gachas. Bloody Emissary fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Jun 28, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 23:55
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Bloody Emissary posted:In a post I read yesterday that discussed the failure of Sakura Revolution relative to FGO, the writer touched upon a fundamental flaw of a lot of mobile gachas: "a lot of mobile games seem to ... use 'making the game play itself' as [a] substitute for 'making the game fun to play.'" With most phone gachas, you have the following progression: actually play the levels manually and enjoy the story -> hit a difficulty spike you need to grind past -> tend to the automated grind throughout your day for a while like you're playing a plate-spinner game IRL (yech) -> go back to actually playing the game -> rinse and repeat previous the steps until you finish the story -> do raids and PvP until you get tired and quit. I got into the Romancing SaGa gacha game for a bit around when I was playing SaGa Frontier Remastered a lot and this definitely describes it pretty well. Something about it is that the grind is so slow towards the top end that if you couldn't automate most of it, it'd be a full-on hell game of just tediously using the same skills on the same three waves of enemies for like 20 hours to get a few stat points. It's really interesting how much of most gacha games is about collecting the characters. Like, that was the part I found fun about the SaGa one: getting different versions of characters I like from SaGa games. Everything else is just a game built around that to give you something to do with those characters. Even Fire Emblem Heroes is like... the game's combat system is fine and all but there just really isn't enough going on there that I think it would be popular if it weren't for the admittedly fun loop of pulling a slot machine to collect characters you already like. I actually avoided Genshin Impact for a bit because I recognized if any gacha game was going to have me spending a bad amount of money, it'd be one that's actually fun to play--where I'm playing it not just to collect characters but just for the sake of the game itself. I'm glad I started playing, though, it really is a stupidly good game.
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Jun 28, 2021 00:19
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Araganzar posted:Progression is one thing with artifact sets but the sad truth is there will be a variance between a shiny new tesla cyberwhateverthefuck and a 1978 toyota corolla with 4 different colors of aftermarket body parts that may barely or even inversely relate to the amount of effort you've put into them. Looking forward to the Genshin Impact character who has a random chance of his/her legs falling off and spontaneously takes heavy Pyro damage.
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Jun 28, 2021 00:43
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A couple of friends tried to get me in on release and I wish they'd sold it as "what if BotW were good?" and not "it's anime gacha!" because while both statements are true they're not true of anything else.
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Jun 28, 2021 01:05
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I think it needs to be stressed that Genshin is a (Chinese) JRPG first and foremost. It has an OK-ish gacha game grafted onto it to make money, but if you wanted to you could just ignore the gacha and play it as a regular rear end RPG game.
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Jun 28, 2021 01:45
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Mailer posted:A couple of friends tried to get me in on release and I wish they'd sold it as "what if BotW were good?" and not "it's anime gacha!" because while both statements are true they're not true of anything else.
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Jun 28, 2021 01:58
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Bloody Emissary posted:Did Puzzles and Dragons go out of fashion? That one was horrendously popular, last I heard, though IDK where it stood in terms of revenue. it's like the 3rd highest grossing gacha game. really big in japan still
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Jun 28, 2021 02:07
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yeah it's not pulling wild sales numbers anymore but it's still its own long-term niche
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Jun 28, 2021 02:12
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I just finished up the Dainsleif quests and the last scene was pretty interesting. It was kind of funny how they had your sibling just call your character by their canon name. Definitely a better solution to a renameable protagonist than "not even your sibling says your name out loud" though it did make me wish I could just change my character's name to Aether so he's not going by some kind of weird pseudonym to everyone else. (Google says you can change your Traveler's name but the option doesn't appear to be there for me so  )
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Jun 28, 2021 03:22
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They temporarily disable changing name and profile comments
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Jun 28, 2021 03:52
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Gonna buy the Battlepass soon. Deathmatch or Viredescent Hunt, which one do I grab first? I've got at least one of everything else.
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Jun 28, 2021 04:55
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Maxwell Adams posted:You can do some stuff with the characters you've got right now. First, up, I would put that Prototype Rancour in Kaeya's hand, then pair him up with Fischl. Electro and Cryo cause the Superconduct effect, which reduces physical defense. The main stat on the Rancour is physical damage, which works out real nice. It would mean less damage for Kaeya's abilities, because they don't do physical damage, but your regular attacks would hit quite a bit harder against superconducted enemies. It would also help you deal damage to the Electro boss, because he always has electro on him, and throwing cryo at him always causes superconduct. I just wanted you to know this is so helpful, and having two or three capable teams means that I've been able to do the content and have set ups that work. Thank you so so much, I love this.
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Jun 28, 2021 05:14
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxLLysD9q6g some odd stylistic choices here, but i do like seeing him and Beidou in a classic back-to-back fight. english version seemed more consistent than the other video as well. music not really hitting the tops of Zhongli, Albedo, or Eula but it's an early taste of Inazuma style i suppose.
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Jun 28, 2021 05:15
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Oh man, I ran out of Mora already, I upgraded a bunch of items and people without really paying attention.
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Jun 28, 2021 05:24
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Boba Pearl posted:Oh man, I ran out of Mora already, I upgraded a bunch of items and people without really paying attention. Welcome to the struggle
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Jun 28, 2021 05:25
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Meiteron posted:The 4th boss is linked to Zhongli's character quests, of which there are two acts released. If you haven't done those yet then you'll need to unlock them with the daily commission keys and play through everything until you get to the boss fight.
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Jun 28, 2021 05:46
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