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ZShakespeare)
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Another Bill posted:I think this is some good nuance, but I also think it's loving unacceptable to have a sitting Senator stanning for China. we have sitting senators stanning for TERF island how is this really any different
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Jun 30, 2021 19:44
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Canada is a vassal state of an empire in decline where the gently caress do we get off talking poo poo about anyone
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Jun 30, 2021 19:50
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Another Bill posted:I think this is some good nuance, but I also think it's loving unacceptable to have a sitting Senator stanning for China. Yeah I don't disagree, except on some level I don't really care, given that Beyak kept her loving Senate pension after she resigned finally. If we're purging the Senate of people with reprehensibly opinions, I feel like there's an awful lot of people who need to go.
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Jun 30, 2021 19:51
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This feels like whataboutism mixed with a tankyism. Just because Canada has a lovely record doesn't mean they have to ignore the lovely current record of another country and China cynically calling Canada out and people ignoring the cynicism so they can say "Canada is worse and shouldn't criticize" is kind of amazing. Regardless of history and on going practices Canada should absolutely call out China and their actions.
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Jun 30, 2021 20:02
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Madkal posted:This feels like whataboutism mixed with a tankyism. Then it's just as valid for China to call out Canada out on it's lovely practices. In the end it's just an imperialist state calling out a colonial one and vice versa, using human rights issues as political fodder in one upping each other. It's completely meaningless and doesn't help either the Uighurs or Indigenous peoples of North America.
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Jun 30, 2021 20:30
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Beelzebufo posted:I feel like there's an awful lot of people who need to go.  105 at least.e: Willatron posted:Then it's just as valid for China to call out Canada out on it's lovely practices. In the end it's just an imperialist state calling out a colonial one and vice versa, using human rights issues as political fodder in one upping each other. It's completely meaningless and doesn't help either the Uighurs or Indigenous peoples of North America. Except in this case it's a sitting legislator calling out his own colonial state on behalf of a foreign imperialist one. I'm the most adamant anti-nationalist I've ever met and even I think this stinks.
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Jun 30, 2021 20:30
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it's a genuine realpolitik consideration: If we don't pass the bill condemning China, in what way are we letting down Uighurs? If we do pass it, how does it help beyond stroking our moral egos and flaming tensions? except there's really no way to talk about it without being seen as legitimizing the CCP's policies
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Jun 30, 2021 20:46
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Willatron posted:Then it's just as valid for China to call out Canada out on it's lovely practices. In the end it's just an imperialist state calling out a colonial one and vice versa, using human rights issues as political fodder in one upping each other. It's completely meaningless and doesn't help either the Uighurs or Indigenous peoples of North America. Let me know when China has a TRC. At least Canada is acknowledging is screwed up racist history and as stated China is acting in the most cynical way possible and people are willing to accept it.
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Jun 30, 2021 20:49
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no matter what, too many canadians will always believe that everyone else is always worse regardless of how obviously lovely and unresponsive we are
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Jun 30, 2021 20:52
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Madkal posted:Let me know when China has a TRC. At least Canada is acknowledging is screwed up racist history and as stated China is acting in the most cynical way possible and people are willing to accept it. True true. China has not published a comprehensive internal report of their own misdeeds, and then gone on to deny it was a genocide and proceed to do virtually nothing about any of it.
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Jun 30, 2021 20:59
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Tighclops posted:no matter what, too many canadians will always believe that everyone else is always worse regardless of how obviously lovely and unresponsive we are o canada we're better than those guys
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Jun 30, 2021 21:00
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If two things can be bad at once, can we pass a bill condemning America's treatment of black people?
Starks fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Jun 30, 2021 |
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Jun 30, 2021 21:01
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o man are those belgians ever gonna get an earful
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Jun 30, 2021 21:10
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Willatron posted:True true. China has not published a comprehensive internal report of their own misdeeds, and then gone on to deny it was a genocide and proceed to do virtually nothing about any of it. That's hardly fair, they are actively fighting against reparations in some cases.
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Jun 30, 2021 21:20
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flakeloaf posted:o man are those belgians ever gonna get an earful I meant for today, not in the past. Though it's worth noting that there are many anti-racism protests in Belgium these days pushing their monarchy to apologize for Colonialism, so it wouldn't be totally uncalled for. Most people would (rightfully imo) say that passing a bill to condemn the U.S. for something that we do would be completely ridiculous, and probably even a slap in the face to our own black and indigenous communities. So acting like it isn't normal to react the same way to China is completely disingenuous. You may disagree but there's no need to cry tankie like some people are doing, and that specific form of hysteria makes me extremely skeptical. Starks fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Jun 30, 2021 |
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Jun 30, 2021 21:25
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fancy stats posted:That's hardly fair, they are actively fighting against reparations in some cases. Wow, that's heinous. What kind of government would do such a thing? https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/ottawa-st-anne-residential-school-court-costs-1.5809846 EDIT: Leaving the link for posterity, but I misread your message initially as defending the Cdn government, my b
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Jun 30, 2021 21:26
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I'd like to announce my new political party, the airing of grievances party.
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Jun 30, 2021 21:40
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apatheticman posted:I'd like to announce my new political party, the airing of grievances party. Leadership decided by feats of strength.
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Jun 30, 2021 21:57
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Madkal posted:Let me know when China has a TRC. At least Canada is acknowledging is screwed up racist history and as stated China is acting in the most cynical way possible and people are willing to accept it. Canada is selling weapons to Saudi Arabia. How can you possibly see any statement the Canadian government makes about any countries human rights record as anything other than cynically self serving. How are you willing to accept it.
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Jun 30, 2021 22:02
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Duck Rodgers posted:Canada is selling weapons to Saudi Arabia. How can you possibly see any statement the Canadian government makes about any countries human rights record as anything other than cynically self serving. How are you willing to accept it. I'm willing to accept that bad things can be bad things despite where they are committed. Saying you can't condemn one bad thing because of another bad thing is just reductive.
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Jun 30, 2021 22:05
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Madkal posted:I'm willing to accept that bad things can be bad things despite where they are committed. Saying you can't condemn one bad thing because of another bad thing is just reductive. I don't think anyone is saying you can't condemn the bad thing. Are you a representative of the Canadian government? That's what this conversation is about unless I'm mistaken. The issue is that governments use these sorts of statements and supporting media blitz to build support to push their economic or political agenda, which often has very bad humanitarian consequences, sometimes even worse than the issue used as propaganda support. Questioning governments foreign policy statements and pointing out issues like this is important. Western governments are clearly creating certain countries as a new Axis of Evil, and they will use real causes to justify trade wars, economic sanctions and even regular wars that have humanitarian consequences themselves. Condemn the genocide, but also condemn western governments response to it as self serving propaganda
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Jun 30, 2021 22:27
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Duck Rodgers posted:Canada is selling weapons to Saudi Arabia. How can you possibly see any statement the Canadian government makes about any countries human rights record as anything other than cynically self serving. How are you willing to accept it. Every country has substantial economic relations with China, which is currently genociding their Uighur citizens. Literally everyone on Earth is a hypocrite for something that is important to them, we can't let that stop us from calling out bad things cause it would literally stop us from calling out anything, ever. Call out atrocities when you see them, admit your own when they are called out. That's all that can be done if we want to fix anything at all. To your example, I totally agree that we should stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia. We should be able to sell those, notably armored vehicles produced in my hometown of London, ON, to our allies in Europe some of whom are very legitimately concerned about Russia these days.
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Jun 30, 2021 22:28
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Orthanc6 posted:Every country has substantial economic relations with China, which is currently genociding their Uighur citizens. Literally everyone on Earth is a hypocrite for something that is important to them, we can't let that stop us from calling out bad things cause it would literally stop us from calling out anything, ever. Call out atrocities when you see them, admit your own when they are called out. That's all that can be done if we want to fix anything at all. I condemn what China is doing. I'm sure you do too. That doesn't change the fact that when self-serving governments do it, often in direct contradiction to their own problematic policies such as in this case, it's really important to call THAT out for what it is. Indigenous people, Uighurs, whomever, are not just poker chips to be used as leverage in geopolitical poker games. I resent that notion and I'll certainly call it out when I see it happening.
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Jun 30, 2021 22:31
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Call out atrocities when you see them* * Offer not valid when committed by allied nations
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Jun 30, 2021 22:34
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People keep saying 'we' and 'you'. I'm talking about the governments international relations, not some broad public zeitgeist or whatever. The Canadian government isn't calling out china for altruistic reasons. They are calling them out to further their international economic and political programs. Those programs are imperialist, capitalist etc etc. The Canadian governments foreign policy motivations are bad things and they result in bad things. E. The American state department used feminism to build support for the war in Afghanistan. Do feminists therefore have to support that war, or can we rightly see that as self serving Duck Rodgers fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Jun 30, 2021 |
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Jun 30, 2021 22:35
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I accept activists calling out China. I do not accept Trudeau calling out China. Remember when the west used "immanent human rights atrocities" to justify intervention in Libya, a state that now has open air slave markets as a result?
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Jun 30, 2021 22:42
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Beelzebufo posted:I accept activists calling out China. Libya was going to be hell no matter what we did, or did not do. It's a case of; yes we intervened and it became hell, but if we had not we'd be sitting here today wondering what we could have done. The same way we're questioning what our government should be doing in response to China's atrocities. The answer to "should we intervene" is eternally "who the hell knows". First you have to win, then you have to improve the lives of the people you at least said you fought for. Neither of those will ever be guarantees. It's not a bad argument for never intervening, but then you do have to accept that whatever horrible things happen in other countries you will never have any chance to fix them. And I'll include sanctions, embargoes and the like as "intervention" here, since military intervention is not an option for any of the larger states in this era and for the foreseeable future. I want to add that I'm certainly not saying to trust Trudeau's government for not having an angle in calling out China or anyone else. But I suppose I am saying, literally every government has an angle. Activists can get stuff done in their country with a lot of blood, sweat and tears. But it's a very rare thing for a movement in one country to cause systemic change in another country with the massive cultural, political, linguistic and geographical distance that Canada has from China. So it's a hell of a lot easier for us to tell our government to call out China and get some form of real action, even if we do not fully trust their intentions in doing so.
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Jun 30, 2021 23:06
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Orthanc6 posted:Libya was going to be hell no matter what we did, or did not do. It's a case of; yes we intervened and it became hell, but if we had not we'd be sitting here today wondering what we could have done. Do you not understand the inherent self-importance of this position? "Well, we may have made things worse, we definitely didn't make things better, but at least WE don't have to feel bad about not intervening"?
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Jun 30, 2021 23:13
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China's international adversaries will use their opposition as leverage to commit their own abuses and atrocities, they aren't going to accidentally or incidentally do something 'good' by the coincidence of being politically opposed to China. We can't help the Uighers. China's ability to commit those crimes against humanity was cemented decades ago, when the west elected governments and empowered oligarchs who are unwilling to stand for the good of humanity. If we want to to prevent atrocities we have to act today to stop the powers of tomorrow. step one is not letting the monsters that run the west from consolidating that level of power, part of that is not letting them build momentum by pointing the finger at their enemies to demonstrate their faux- righteousness.
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Jun 30, 2021 23:18
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Duck Rodgers posted:Canada is selling weapons to Saudi Arabia. How can you possibly see any statement the Canadian government makes about any countries human rights record as anything other than cynically self serving. How are you willing to accept it. Does the fact that some countries are cynical or hypocrtical in calling out the Uyghur genocide make that genocide any less real or reprehensible? e: lol i thought this was the China thread, that at least makes a little more sense. But I don't think the alternative here, wherein Canada says "well WE did genocide so it's only fair China gets to as well," is particularly attractive. Muscle Tracer fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Jul 1, 2021 |
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Jun 30, 2021 23:47
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Regardless I think we can all agree that the nation of Taiwan is awesome and we should support that great sovereign nation
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Jun 30, 2021 23:58
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Muscle Tracer posted:Does the fact that some countries are cynical or hypocrtical in calling out the Uyghur genocide make that genocide any less real or reprehensible? The Canadian government is not calling out China because of concern for Uyghurs, or even because of your hypothetical fairness in genocide. They are calling out China because it aligns with the governments current economic and political goals. Those political and economic goals also include support for mining companies that commit humanitarian attrocities all over the world, selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, support for Israel etc etc. The Canadian government isn't a force for good in the world. Also it's weird that people keep using a broad brush 'we' 'you' 'Canada' etc. That's nationalism.
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Jul 1, 2021 00:38
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https://twitter.com/jkenney/status/1410345559664193537?s=20 Remember that time all those hate crimes happened to people of colour and Jason created videos for those too...
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Jul 1, 2021 00:43
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apatheticman posted:https://twitter.com/jkenney/status/1410345559664193537?s=20 Did they have a basement where small sandwiches were served? Did they? Apples and oranges!
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Jul 1, 2021 00:45
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Lol that shirt Like he walked into the bay and asked for the farmboy special
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Jul 1, 2021 00:49
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Duck Rodgers posted:Also it's weird that people keep using a broad brush 'we' 'you' 'Canada' etc. That's nationalism. how else do you think the Canadian government should refer to the actions of a large number of Canadian government employees? you would prefer "they"?
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Jul 1, 2021 00:51
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Muscle Tracer posted:how else do you think the Canadian government should refer to the actions of a large number of Canadian government employees? you would prefer "they"? I mean the people in this thread, who seem to be associating themselves with the Canadian state, as if the Canadian government is confronting China on their behalf. It is possible to condemn what China is doing, while also condemning the Canadian imperialist state apparatus that is trying to use the ongoing crisis in order to advance it's imperialist program
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Jul 1, 2021 01:00
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Duck Rodgers posted:I mean the people in this thread, who seem to be associating themselves with the Canadian state, as if the Canadian government is confronting China on their behalf. It is possible to condemn what China is doing, while also condemning the Canadian imperialist state apparatus that is trying to use the ongoing crisis in order to advance it's imperialist program In the last election I voted for someone who is now government. I would hope that the person I voted for that represents my riding would call out genocide.
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Jul 1, 2021 01:36
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Madkal posted:In the last election I voted for someone who is now government. I would hope that the person I voted for that represents my riding would call out genocide. Have they? Any genocide in particular?
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Jul 1, 2021 01:57
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infernal machines posted:Have they? My MP is Wilson-Raybould and she has spoken a bit about the recent unmarked graves and the treatment of first nation people in Canada but you know, evil politician who represents supremacy and doesn't care about genocide or whatever people think.
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Jul 1, 2021 02:02
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