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Timeless Appeal posted:Look, I think it's fair to say the show which included creators who felt it was very important to mention that Loki is queer weren't blind to the parallels that could be made between Silvie, a female version of a traditionally male character--who the show labels as gender fluid--who as a child was taken away from her life by authoritarians because she is wrong parallels a trans reading. this is where I'm at. I think I mentioned upthread that I figured this would just be a wasted opportunity, and yeah. Personally I just want this comic to be canon to the MCU, is that really so much to ask: 
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Jul 1, 2021 20:02
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So youd all be down to kiss you alternate dimension selfs. Got it
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Jul 1, 2021 20:04
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if loki impregnates loki is the baby also loki?
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Jul 1, 2021 20:06
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MCU TV: CIVIL WAR (OVER TRANS TERMINOLOGY)
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Jul 1, 2021 20:11
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Its a komodoki
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Jul 1, 2021 20:12
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Firebert posted:if loki impregnates loki is the baby also loki? Who do you think is holding the alligator?
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Jul 1, 2021 20:13
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pik_d posted:I am Loki. mutata posted:No, I am Loki.
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Jul 1, 2021 20:25
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Mmhh...suspicious cartoon clock lady. https://twitter.com/LokiOfficial/status/1410674573171781632 It took them a long to bring the retro looking posters. I guess they didn't want to feel as they were copying Wandavision, but come on! Do the retro-future designs, it's right there!
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Jul 1, 2021 20:27
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Open Source Idiom posted:At the end of the day, my heart goes out to your position, particularly given some of the dumb poo poo arguments on this page. But you're also asking for scrupulousness and moral culpability from an organisation that doesn't care about either of these things if it means getting in the way of money. Let me ask this: how many MCU characters can you name that have had lines to specifically establish the sex or gender they were born as? You can certainly argue the intent of this, whether it was meanspirited or not, whatever, but it's not nonsense. They made an unprecedented effort to establish "this character was born as a girl". biracial bear for uncut posted:Was that a monitor lizard Loki that kid Loki was holding? I read an article from some buzzfeed/screenrant/whatever site, they actually contacted several herpetologists who all concurred it was a baby alligator. Neat!
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Jul 1, 2021 20:32
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Desperado Bones posted:Mmhh...suspicious cartoon clock lady. Tara Strong being the ultimate threat to the universe was not a swerve I saw coming.
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Jul 1, 2021 20:39
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Frankenstyle posted:See I think it's doing the exact same thing Tenet did. Being super vague and non-committal about the internal rules of the universe, and settling for that being a smokescreen inferring that there's more going on than what you can see. That way the writers don't have to do any real work to justify how they choose to kick the plot down the road. 100% Squidster posted:It does feel a little unclear what exactly a Variant is. Originally it was portrayed as anyone who made an unexpected choice that transgressed against the Sacred Timeline. Under that model, things supported the reading that Sylvie was trans. But if she's afab...? Right? That's my biggest problem with the show. It all undermines what could be a theme like "You can become anyone you want to be", like Mobius told Loki, and brings it around into something more like, "You can be anyone you want to be.... as long as that's the person you were born as." During this last episode I just felt like I had so little reason to care about anything that happens. There's little thematic or emotional foundation, and even any plot events will just be immediately reversed with no attempt at an explanation, sometimes even within the same episode. Compare WandaVision, which was all about Wanda's grief & trauma. It set things up well enough that people were able to make very specific guesses many episodes in advance, like the TV sitcoms being a relic of Wanda's childhood in a post soviet-collapse state. It's not a GOOD thing when plot developments are happening so arbitrarily that people aren't able to guess them. That just means those developments weren't really tied to anything that came before. It's writing calvinball. That's what I mean when I say it has very little stakes. No event is necessarily going to lead into anything else in any meaningful way. There's little reason to care about anything that's happening at any given moment when you know that they're immediately going to contradict what they just told you (i.e., apocalypses are invisible) and do the exact opposite as soon as it's convenient. I wouldn't be as disappointed, cause hey, it's MCU, it's silly fun. But the first two D+ shows set a very different standard, and at first Loki seemed to be going for something similar. Sentient Data posted:I think I figured out a thing. The redline? It's Loki's death. That's why it spiked so suddenly when they accepted Armageddon, and that's why pruning isn't erasure from existence If they do this I'll rescind my complaints, though. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jul 1, 2021 |
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Jul 1, 2021 20:41
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XboxPants posted:Let me ask this: how many MCU characters can you name that have had lines to specifically establish the sex or gender they were born as? I kind of took that line as more of a slightly limp Marvel attempt at a moment of feminist girlboss triumph, a bit like that scene in Avengers where they had all the female heroes fight alongside each other. Just triumphantly/smugly drawing attention to her womanhood rather than clarifying it." I mean, I see the frustration in the sense that any form of representation in these things is pure rainbow capitalism and about increasing market share without also alienating people. Which sucks! For me it's in the same camp as when a big game studio establishes a character as gay in a tweet or buried in a biog or supplementary comic somewhere, but doesn't go any further or have that character meaningfully intersect with the gay experience, or even worse - and Blizzard does this with Overwatch - they'll kind of hand-wave away their lack of ambition by suggesting that the fictional world they've created is so progressive that nobody cares about peoples sexualities or gender identities and are just cool about it, which is why it never impacts the interactions characters have with one another or on the plot.
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Jul 1, 2021 20:51
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One of the great things about sci-fi is that it can allude to important issues in society without touching the proverbial poop. Sylvie doesn't have to explicitly be trans for the story to be an allegory for being queer/trans in a society that tries to force people down a path of a particular sexuality or gender role. By telling a story in allegory they avoid dating it to the 2021 popular culture understanding of trans people. This is why Star Trek episodes about various hot button issues that society has since evolved on age much better than contemporary shows that tried to tackle them head on for a mass audience.
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Jul 1, 2021 20:58
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Gangringo posted:One of the great things about sci-fi is that it can allude to important issues in society without touching the proverbial poop. I mean yeah there's some allegorical stuff there about how you identify/present yourself to the world for sure, but this conversation was more about explicit representation in media, which is slightly different. I don't know if Star Trek is the best example though because it's still arguably incredibly dated in so many of its sensibilities on the issues of its time - which if anything are more obvious because the show is trying to present itself as this future utopia. I mean, Star Trek has always been progressive in certain very specific ways for its time, but the gender politics in the original series (and a fair chunk of TNG) are pretty bad. And a lot of its utopian politics are from the whole 'end of history' Fukuyama era of thinking that never really lasted beyond the 90's. Allegory can make certain topics more palatable and accessible to a contemporary audience, but it doesn't stop the politics of your show from dating poorly.
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Jul 1, 2021 21:08
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The Grumbles posted:I kind of took that line as more of a slightly limp Marvel attempt at a moment of feminist girlboss triumph, a bit like that scene in Avengers where they had all the female heroes fight alongside each other. Just triumphantly/smugly drawing attention to her womanhood rather than clarifying it." Yeah, that's fair, it's pretty much what they did in this case as well. Disney put out a tweet with the file with "Fluid" on it, the people behind the show all said it was important to them but then it just doesn't appear in the show, really. I can't say I'm surprised. The team behind the show definitely had this issue in mind, though, if that's still in debate- quote:For Loki head writer Michael Waldron, (the fluid) reveal was a long time coming. We're not reading things into the show that weren't meant when we say there were trans parallels in this show. It was very intentional and part of the marketing from before the show even started airing.
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Jul 1, 2021 21:11
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The Grumbles posted:I don't know if Star Trek is the best example though because it's still arguably incredibly dated in so many of its sensibilities on the issues of its time - which if anything are more obvious because the show is trying to present itself as this future utopia. I mean, Star Trek has always been progressive in certain very specific ways for its time, but the gender politics in the original series (and a fair chunk of TNG) are pretty bad. And a lot of its utopian politics are from the whole 'end of history' Fukuyama era of thinking that never really lasted beyond the 90's. Allegory can make certain topics more palatable and accessible to a contemporary audience, but it doesn't stop the politics of your show from dating poorly. There is definitely some stuff in Star Trek that didn't age well, it just aged better than other shows of the era that tried to play those issues straight.
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Jul 1, 2021 21:17
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Robohitler and Cowboy Planet are timeless tales.
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Jul 1, 2021 21:19
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Man the ultra-strong casting and production design are saving this... but holy gently caress you can really tell the writers grew up on a hard diet of new Doctor Who and it is not working out for them.
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Jul 1, 2021 21:26
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mind the walrus posted:Man the ultra-strong casting and production design are saving this... but holy gently caress you can really tell the writers grew up on a hard diet of new Doctor Who and it is not working out for them. I just totally don't agree. New doctor who is so rulesless and hard to watch for me where I feel like this has a ruleset they're working from and it all makes sense within that.
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Jul 1, 2021 21:43
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Its a comic book show. I can suspend my disbelief of multi verses, time travel laws, biological erase nukes, and kissing my girl self. Go crazy! Im really enjoying loki the most so far
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Jul 1, 2021 21:48
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Swap out "Loki" for "The Doctor" and add some [tech tech] babble to explain the few uses of enchantment and what have you, and this entire show-- the entirety of it-- works as straight-up Doctor Who fanfic that could exist 100% independently from the MCU. And that's not even a bad thing. Part of the non-continuity appeal to the entire show's pitch was "Loki gets dropped into some Doctor Who bullshit and causes chaos" and I was down for that, but we're 2/3rds of the way through and structurally this thing is a mess. The first two episodes were perfectly good set-up, but much like Doctor Who we're now being informed of what the writers thought the emotional anchor of the story was while also rushing through plot beats after a detour that feels like it was meant to fill in some character gaps but just plain forgot, and unfortunately the emotional anchor they thought they had is some real Doctor Who fan-fic bullshit that both doesn't land and doesn't have the space to get salvaged because they also just introduced a whole new host of new characters and complications for the finale blowout. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jul 1, 2021 |
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Jul 1, 2021 21:51
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One thing I wish they would do is establish that TVA operates within all time and space. Because up to this point, everything has been very human-centric, mostly on Earth, with bits of Asgard thrown in, and even the people on that one dying planet (Lumentis-1?) were human. Mobius did explicitly mention that they have brought in variants of other species though (even Titans). It would be cool to have a scene where the elevator stops on the wrong floor, the door opens and it's the lobby area where TVA agents are handling and processing variants of other species, for example. Just a quick 15 second thing would go a long way.
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Jul 1, 2021 21:58
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mind the walrus posted:Swap out "Loki" for "The Doctor" and add some [tech tech] babble to explain the few uses of enchantment and what have you, and this entire show-- the entirety of it-- works as straight-up Doctor Who fanfic that could exist 100% independently from the MCU. No, see, don't you get it? The core is that Loki grows as a person and learns that he's not the center of the universe, and also simultaneously literally falls in love with himself because he's such a narcissist and the only person he'll ever care about or who would ever care about him is himself. Totally works.
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Jul 1, 2021 21:58
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ShortyMR.CAT posted:Its a comic book show. I can suspend my disbelief of multi verses, time travel laws, biological erase nukes, and kissing my girl self. Yeah, same. The rules are surface-level but simple enough, and I'm complicit in going along with the ride. This one is easy and fun to play along with.
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Jul 1, 2021 22:03
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According to the internet my favorite Doctor Who episodes are the worst Doctor Who episodes. So this show is for me!! 
Desperado Bones fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jul 1, 2021 |
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Jul 1, 2021 22:06
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Loki being too vain to love anyone but another version of himself works for me, so I'd be a pretty bad media critic since I tend to enjoy most of the stuff I watch or at least mock it enough to find the experience enjoyable.
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Jul 1, 2021 22:11
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mind the walrus posted:Swap out "Loki" for "The Doctor" and add some [tech tech] babble to explain the few uses of enchantment and what have you, and this entire show-- the entirety of it-- works as straight-up Doctor Who fanfic that could exist 100% independently from the MCU. You don't even have to stretch as far as Dr Who. The setup and premise is completely identical to the DC show Legends of Tomorrow. That is what pulled me into the first two episodes of Loki, but I don't know if I'm going to finish this season out or not after episode 4. Edit: Wait if I slogged through whatever the bad one was, was it Season 3 of Legends of Tomorrow? I shouldn't have a problem finishing Loki.
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Jul 1, 2021 22:20
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The amount of money they’ve put into the live action shows is staggering and I wonder if they will keep it up. I mean Disney has more money than god but they’re still a corporation.
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Jul 1, 2021 22:24
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Disney+ has over 100 million subscribers so it's worth the price to keep those people interested.
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Jul 1, 2021 22:28
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Loki being too vain to love anyone but another version of himself works for me, so I'd be a pretty bad media critic since I tend to enjoy most of the stuff I watch or at least mock it enough to find the experience enjoyable. I still enjoy it, the flash and dazzle is fun, the actors are top notch across the board, and taken individually most scenes range from passable to fantastic. Loki singing, Mobius stripping down Loki as little more than a petty rear end in a top hat, Sylvie getting completely fed up with Loki being an incompetent idiot who thinks he's a wizard (basically GOB now that I think about it), Wunmi Mosaku's internal breakdown, the Loki Corps, the silly/propoganda cartoons, all great. It just hasn't tied together well imo. But, there's only two episodes left, so even though I'm not that hopeful I'll give it a chance. They could still make it all work. Like, if the nexus spike on Lamentis was really because of Lokiis accepting their death, and Loki dying would break the timeline.... then that means Loki really IS the center of the universe! At least, the TVA's sacred timeline version. Especially if he really is central to the TVA's formation, somehow. So then, if Loki were to reject that, realize that his life's dream of "winning" still leaves him selfish & alone and isn't what he wants after all, it all ties back around. Cut to restoring all the TVA variant agents to their lives and Owen Wilson & young Silvie on a jetski.
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Jul 1, 2021 22:53
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ShortyMR.CAT posted:So youd all be down to kiss you alternate dimension selfs. Got it If my alternate self was sexy and into it then why not?
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Jul 1, 2021 22:59
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Chainclaw posted:You don't even have to stretch as far as Dr Who. The setup and premise is completely identical to the DC show Legends of Tomorrow. That is what pulled me into the first two episodes of Loki, but I don't know if I'm going to finish this season out or not after episode 4. It really hasn't clicked for me at all.
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Jul 1, 2021 23:01
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I've seen like 2 episodes ever of Dr Who, because a cute girl invited me over and wanted to watch it, and i thought it was terrible. Loki has been phenomenally fun and interesting from the start.
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Jul 1, 2021 23:02
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How are u posted:If my alternate self was sexy and into it then why not? From the scene it looked like only one of them was into it
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Jul 1, 2021 23:02
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Gangringo posted:There is definitely some stuff in Star Trek that didn't age well, it just aged better than other shows of the era that tried to play those issues straight. Do you remember that episode of TNG where Riker had a relationship with a person from a non-gendered species and their government gave them the ol’ brain zap for being attracted to a gendered person? I need to rewatch that and see if it holds up.
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Jul 1, 2021 23:03
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Chainclaw posted:You don't even have to stretch as far as Dr Who. The setup and premise is completely identical to the DC show Legends of Tomorrow. That is what pulled me into the first two episodes of Loki, but I don't know if I'm going to finish this season out or not after episode 4. This has got me wondering if this version of Loki is, in fact, weird enough to roll with the Legends. It's too bad a crossover could NEVER happen. Although, the Legends aren't big fans of crossovers to begin with, so that would be one problem. And season 1 was the bad one.
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Jul 1, 2021 23:04
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Sentient Data posted:I think I figured out a thing. The redline? It's Loki's death. That's why it spiked so suddenly when they accepted Armageddon, and that's why pruning isn't erasure from existence I hope it's not that, because that's a bit inconsistent. Whether Loki lives or dies will not change the timeline they're currently in, so why would it suddenly start to diverge?
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Jul 1, 2021 23:12
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Hot off my successful guess that the Time-Keepers weren't real, I'm making another: Kang will not be part of the show. We're at 4 out of 6 episodes and there's been no hint of his existence. Dropping him in now would be jarring. I could see him being in some post-credits scene at the end of episode 6, but that's it.
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Jul 1, 2021 23:40
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Marsupial Ape posted:Do you remember that episode of TNG where Riker had a relationship with a person from a non-gendered species and their government gave them the ol’ brain zap for being attracted to a gendered person? I need to rewatch that and see if it holds up. It, uh, does not. Sadly. Probably a little too daring a premise even for its time. My favorite part of the thread so far is honestly people decrying a half-completed series as unable to stick the landing when all saying that does is prove you're not imaginative enough to see how it could work. Like, I get it, cool detached irony, must hate yadda yadda but come on, at least let the rest of the sentence finish before deciding it's maliciously aimed directly at you. And, before you ask, yes, I would totally get down with my bad self. Who else would know what I like better?
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Jul 1, 2021 23:44
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ymgve posted:I hope it's not that, because that's a bit inconsistent. Whether Loki lives or dies will not change the timeline they're currently in, so why would it suddenly start to diverge? I wouldn't really be that happy if this is the case, but who's to say that "our" Loki is the one that matters? Maybe the other one actually forms the TVA in their subjective future, and their death at this point would create a major paradox
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