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Rutibex posted:I just don't want a loving boss, I want to run my own workshop and decide how I work and when and what I work on. I also don't want employees so don't call me a capitalist. You want to be fully funded and provided for in a commercial-grade space to do self directed work, regardless of productive labor contributed back? Do I have that right?
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Jul 3, 2021 15:52
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like if you want to run your own little farm, the good news is the NEP happened. the bad news is it didn't last. these policies are based on extenuating circumstances, not good intentions
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Jul 3, 2021 15:56
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AnimeIsTrash posted:but then everyone is your boss xd You're also partially everyone else's boss though too
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Jul 3, 2021 15:58
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writing the menu of the bistro of the future etc
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Jul 3, 2021 15:59
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Dr. Poz posted:You want to be fully funded and provided for in a commercial-grade space to do self directed work, regardless of productive labor contributed back? Do I have that right? lmfao yeah. socialism is not where everyone gets to be rich basically. i mean in an ideal world, yes, but there's probably barely enough to provide everyone my current standard of living, which is loving low. im basically a step or two above homeless. would be if not for a big family so i always have somewhere to stay lol. i make just enough money to comfortably enjoy my Xbox and that's about it. probably we could provide this level of comfort to everyone combined with a lot less work though.
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Jul 3, 2021 16:01
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Dr. Poz posted:You want to be fully funded and provided for in a commercial-grade space to do self directed work, regardless of productive labor contributed back? Do I have that right? I want to control my portion of the means of production, yes. thats what owning something means and i will use that space for a more productive purpose than the central committee would have
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Jul 3, 2021 16:02
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Hatebag posted:You're also partially everyone else's boss though too Yeah but I want to be my own boss OP. With my own private land.
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Jul 3, 2021 16:02
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Rutibex posted:I just don't want a loving boss, I want to run my own workshop and decide how I work and when and what I work on. I also don't want employees so don't call me a capitalist. Everyone must be part of something larger than themselves to survive, everyone answers to others, and if that means you're a "cog" well... Sorry.
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Jul 3, 2021 16:03
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Jul 3, 2021 16:06
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Rutibex posted:I want to control my portion of the means of production, yes. thats what owning something means "workers own the means of production" doesn't mean that the steel workers own the steel factory and the bread makers own the bakery. it means that all of these things are owned collectively by society. it sounds like you just want a rich dad. edit: in whatever hypothetical post-revolution scenario we come up with there's doubtlessly room for individuals to apply for space and support for self-directed work (thinking pure research, with the output being made available still) but i don't know why you would think this is something that should just be granted if you contribute nothing back. Dr. Poz has issued a correction as of 16:16 on Jul 3, 2021 |
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Jul 3, 2021 16:13
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Epic High Five posted:Absolutely, which is why one of my big criticisms of the CCP, Dengist though it may be, is its tepid support of the Naxalites because of the contradictions of trade and revolution I mean at this point, we only have China and Vietnam. They are both successes. i don't think its our role to decide that the CCP should declare a war against the world (that's what open support for the Nexalites or the Philippine Communist Party would do) for our personal zeal for world revolution. The Chinese are not ammunition to be spent on personal fantasies about world revolution. They are taking care of their own country and at some point the failures in both the Philippines and India will multiply to the point of crisis and they will have their own revolution. China would be a world power and could influence the outcome much better than turning into an armed camp against the world.
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Jul 3, 2021 16:14
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Rutibex posted:I want to control my portion of the means of production, yes. thats what owning something means You want your rebate cheque so you can gently caress off and everyone can leave you alone. No, that's not the way it works. So if that's the 1% remaining for you, you aren't going to make it all the way.
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Jul 3, 2021 16:14
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Dr. Poz posted:"workers own the means of production" doesn't mean that the steel workers own the steel factory wrong  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_furnace
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Jul 3, 2021 16:15
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i can't tell if he's just insanely uneducated or is trolling at this point tbh
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Jul 3, 2021 16:18
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it doesn't really matter. this is good inoculation against libcom.org crocodile tears about dekulakization
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Jul 3, 2021 16:20
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yes yes, anarchists just want pre-capitalism without the kings and landlords. just looms and butter churns and cobblers nails or w/e the gently caress for everyone. you can think its preferable, you can even fight for it, but at no point could you consider yourself a "marxist".
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Jul 3, 2021 16:31
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engels never considered that utopian socialism and reactionary socialism are just the same thing
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Jul 3, 2021 16:40
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:yes yes, anarchists just want pre-capitalism without the kings and landlords. just looms and butter churns and cobblers nails or w/e the gently caress for everyone. you can think its preferable, you can even fight for it, but at no point could you consider yourself a "marxist". The revolution is actually a pirate's raid, and when we're done we just split up the loot and go our separate ways. Bing bong, so simple.
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Jul 3, 2021 16:52
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in reality, the revolution is an mmo raid, and we all have to execute our mechanics on the dot and then do it consistently from week to week until we've maxed out all our gear
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Jul 3, 2021 16:55
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I'm pretty sure I remember reading that people in East Germany were guaranteed a job. So east germans talk about people going for lunch for hours, not showing up for work for days, etc. Because of worker protections it was difficult to fire workers. If they fired you were guaranteed a new job. My advice would be to move to a rural place with strong unions, get a guaranteed job and don't show up to work and do your gardening or whatever instead.
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Jul 3, 2021 16:55
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PhilippAchtel posted:The revolution is actually a pirate's raid, and when we're done we just split up the loot and go our separate ways. it worked for the sea people 
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Jul 3, 2021 16:55
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Rutibex posted:it worked for the sea people I wouldn't worry too much about the revolution OP, it sounds like you'd be gulag'd right after.
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Jul 3, 2021 17:32
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Jul 3, 2021 17:35
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AnimeIsTrash posted:I wouldn't worry too much about the revolution OP, it sounds like you'd be gulag'd right after. there is a lot more chance of rural chuds doing a libertarian revolution than anything else, if i had to bet on something happening to the current hell system
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Jul 3, 2021 17:38
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not true, because libertarianism is fake, has never existed, and will never exist in any credible sense
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Jul 3, 2021 17:40
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Ferrinus posted:not true, because libertarianism is fake, has never existed, and will never exist in any credible sense
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Jul 3, 2021 17:41
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Rutibex posted:you guys are really lovely at selling socialism. i'm like 99% there and all you can do is call me an idiot You’re loving stupid though
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Jul 3, 2021 18:20
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Demon Semen posted:You’re loving stupid though how are you going to have a revolution if you cant convince stupid people to join you
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Jul 3, 2021 18:22
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I found rutibex
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Jul 3, 2021 18:34
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Rutibex posted:there is a lot more chance of rural chuds doing a libertarian revolution than anything else, if i had to bet on something happening to the current hell system Rural chuds want to believe this but without city infrastructure the state would make quick work of them
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Jul 3, 2021 19:16
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Rutibex posted:how are you going to have a revolution if you cant convince stupid people to join you you've already named your price. maybe the party will be able to deliver and maybe it won't, but what concern is it of ours? you're clearly not going to become an organizer of any kind so your support counts for little
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Jul 3, 2021 19:20
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Top City Homo posted:I mean at this point, we only have China and Vietnam. They are both successes. Oh I'm not saying its realistic or it's the duty of China to do so, I just really wish the circumstances of those revolutionary orgs weren't so dire and the contradictions not working against them so horribly, and that China was able to support foreign militias opposing capitalism as freely and without consequence as the west is able to (assuming they wanted to branch out beyond belt and road stuff) Rutibex posted:there is a lot more chance of rural chuds doing a libertarian revolution than anything else, if i had to bet on something happening to the current hell system Lol libertarians cant even take over the city council of an already long established and stable community without destroying it completely within 2 years. If you want big things you dont want anything libertarian, left or right, like it says right on the tin that it's not doing anything like that
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Jul 3, 2021 19:25
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Epic High Five posted:Lol libertarians cant even take over the city council of an already long established and stable community without destroying it completely within 2 years. If you want big things you dont want anything libertarian, left or right, like it says right on the tin that it's not doing anything like that The virgin libertarians versus the Chad proletarian bears
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Jul 3, 2021 19:32
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i can't believe how much he wants a farm but doesn't have the first idea of what farming actually looks like up close. farming, even when done by a single family, is as industrialized as steel production and letting some libertarian dipshit fence off a section so he can live out some hippy agrarian fantasy makes as much sense as letting someone own an iron deposit and foundry so they can mine what they need for nails whatnot to build their house arable land is a highly valuable and limited resource and all his whining is because he doesn't understand, or willfully refuses to understand, this basic fact. he wants to take a resource that the community can use and intentionally squader its sustainable potential because he's got a dipshit libertarian UR NOT MY REAL DAD understanding of societal interactions
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Jul 3, 2021 20:25
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Azathoth posted:i can't believe how much he wants a farm but doesn't have the first idea of what farming actually looks like up close. farming, even when done by a single family, is as industrialized as steel production and letting some libertarian dipshit fence off a section so he can live out some hippy agrarian fantasy makes as much sense as letting someone own an iron deposit and foundry so they can mine what they need for nails whatnot to build their house i don't want a piece of currently existing farmland i want a piece of unclaimed wilderness so i can make it valuable with my own efforts. don't tell me there isn't enough of that to go around, because i know thats horseshit. i don't want anything except for society to stop paying cops to come and smash up my theoretical cabin
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Jul 3, 2021 20:34
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Rutibex posted:i don't want a piece of currently existing farmland i want a piece of unclaimed wilderness so i can make it valuable with my own efforts. alright john locke
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Jul 3, 2021 20:39
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Rutibex posted:i don't want a piece of currently existing farmland i want a piece of unclaimed wilderness so i can make it valuable with my own efforts. don't tell me there isn't enough of that to go around, because i know thats horseshit. You may be surprised to find out that those wilderness youtubers have lots of support and it doesn't represent a realistic lifestyle, and the imagined ideal of the homesteader is a false one because american settlers weren't rugged individualists striking it out on their own, they had enormous amounts of state support because the settling of the west by white americans was an enormous political project from the start. More to the point though, what you want is possible under all systems. Just disappear into the woods and live rough. People do it now and people did it in the USSR. I dont know what your hangup is, do you want significant state support or approval to do so? Wouldn't the state saying you have permission aggress upon your natural human rights or whatever? Or do you just want them to fund this venture whose entire purpose is to put public commons to private venture, and if so why on earth would they? Theres a lot of "wilderness" but anything suitable to what you want is indeed already claimed, unless you're saying that you support the state expropriation of land in some cases but not others. There isnt enough to go around for even half of our current lifestyles most likely, and there definitely isnt enough "wilderness" for 7 billion homesteaders even leaving aside how much currently arable land stops being so without huge public works projects aka like half of this country
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Jul 3, 2021 20:47
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Rutibex posted:i don't want a piece of currently existing farmland i want a piece of unclaimed wilderness so i can make it valuable with my own efforts "valuable" meaning you want to become a mushroom magnate lol Making land valuable was basically the justification for robbing indigenous people of their lands you know. Turning common property into private property is the whole story of how this nation was built
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Jul 3, 2021 20:48
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also insofar as the labor you're doing on your own land has already been superseded by advanced industrial processes requiring cooperation, machinery, etc the value you are adding to your land working it by hand is minuscule to the point of nonexistent compared to what it would gain if the collective put it to use in a rational manner
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Jul 3, 2021 20:58
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Epic High Five posted:You may be surprised to find out that those wilderness youtubers have lots of support and it doesn't represent a realistic lifestyle, and the imagined ideal of the homesteader is a false one because american settlers weren't rugged individualists striking it out on their own, they had enormous amounts of state support because the settling of the west by white americans was an enormous political project from the start. its illegal to just build a cabin in the woods off an old abandoned logging road. once they see your camp fire from the air they will send rangers to chase you off and burn down your cabin i don't want everyone to live in the woods. i just want the theoretical revolutionary ideal society to give me that option. i'm sure most people will be fine with the central plan and their 30 hour per week job, efficient apartment and nice TV or whatever
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Jul 3, 2021 21:00
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