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Ferrinus posted:also insofar as the labor you're doing on your own land has already been superseded by advanced industrial processes requiring cooperation, machinery, etc the value you are adding to your land working it by hand is minuscule to the point of nonexistent compared to what it would gain if the collective put it to use in a rational manner who gets to decide what is valuable to the collective? because I'm clearly not getting a say in this scenario
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Jul 3, 2021 21:10
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Rutibex posted:its illegal to just build a cabin in the woods off an old abandoned logging road. once they see your camp fire from the air they will send rangers to chase you off and burn down your cabin Well yeah if you're predicating it on easy access to the comforts and conveniences of the larger society, that larger society is going to have significant leverage to make sure you arent just siphoning off collectivized resources toward non-productive private profit ventures. If the man is still hassling you it means you are not in fact staking a claim on unclaimed wilderness.
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Jul 3, 2021 21:10
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Rutibex posted:how are you going to have a revolution if you cant convince stupid people to join you there's normal stupid and then there's rutibex stupid fellas he's loving with you, just ignore him because this is now a boring rear end discussion
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Jul 3, 2021 21:13
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Rutibex posted:who gets to decide what is valuable to the collective? because I'm clearly not getting a say in this scenario Youd have a say unless you're entirely non-participant, its just that your task of convincing enough people to give you some of the commons for your own private ownership and profit is probably not going to find much support lol. How do you respond to someone who instead proposes a community garden with pooled resources for tools that are commonly owned instead?
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Jul 3, 2021 21:13
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Epic High Five posted:If the man is still hassling you it means you are not in fact staking a claim on unclaimed wilderness.  ok if you want to be pedantic about it unutilized wilderness
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Jul 3, 2021 21:15
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Epic High Five posted:Youd have a say unless you're entirely non-participant, its just that your task of convincing enough people to give you some of the commons for your own private ownership and profit is probably not going to find much support lol. How do you respond to someone who instead proposes a community garden with pooled resources for tools that are commonly owned instead? i would propose that we have shared tools and large areas for shared fields, but also a significant portion of land set aside for private cultivation. i don't think its a good use of my time to justify everything i want to do to a wider committee for micromanagement. i don't like arguing with people and doing politics all the time, that sounds tedious and it sounds like the most popular people are just going to get what they want
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Jul 3, 2021 21:21
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Rutibex posted:
If theres infrastructure in place that you're planning on claiming as your own as you say, and is patrolled by rangers and subject to aerial surveys, it is being utilized. You just dont agree with how it is being utilized, as you dont see the land not having profit extracted from it as valid no matter the reason, the foundational assertion of manifest destiny in fact lol You want unutilized land, you need to go farther than the exburban periphery. Think like, "I can go into town once a year because it's such an onerous process"
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Jul 3, 2021 21:23
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eventually a postrevolutionary society might advance to the point where annoying dullards can gently caress off by themselves but it's gonna be all-hands for a while probably. just the cost of doing business
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Jul 3, 2021 21:25
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Attorney at Funk posted:eventually a postrevolutionary society might advance to the point where annoying dullards can gently caress off by themselves but it's gonna be all-hands for a while probably. just the cost of doing business
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Jul 3, 2021 21:27
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Rutibex posted:who gets to decide what is valuable to the collective? because I'm clearly not getting a say in this scenario i'm speaking in terms of marxist economics, here. something's value is equal to the socially necessary labor required to produce it. in biblical times, plowing and hoeing your little plot by hand is the prevailing mode of agriculture, so you're adding one full man-hour per hour of value to whatever you produce by farming. in modern times, however, such things as combine harvesters and other elements of mechanized agriculture mean that one man-hour of labor is expected to deliver vastly more goods than it used to, or, in other words, the value of individual agricultural goods has dropped precipitously capital vol 1 ch 1 posted:The introduction of power-looms into England probably reduced by one-half the labour required to weave a given quantity of yarn into cloth. The hand-loom weavers, as a matter of fact, continued to require the same time as before; but for all that, the product of one hour of their labour represented after the change only half an hour’s social labour, and consequently fell to one-half its former value. this is all to say that you will actually be adding very little value to whatever you work by hand, because technology has decreased the value of most goods by contriving ways to churn out masses of those goods via industry
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Jul 3, 2021 21:28
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Rutibex posted:i would propose that we have shared tools and large areas for shared fields, but also a significant portion of land set aside for private cultivation. i don't think its a good use of my time to justify everything i want to do to a wider committee for micromanagement. Do you, uh, know how community gardens work? Like I said I dont think "I like the part where I get to use all this stuff for free but its absolutely critical that I be allowed to be exempt from everything else" is a good argument, people will just assume you're wanting to grow drugs or have some sort of oppositional defiance disorder
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Jul 3, 2021 21:31
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Epic High Five posted:Do you, uh, know how community gardens work? Like I said I dont think "I like the part where I get to use all this stuff for free but its absolutely critical that I be allowed to be exempt from everything else" is a good argument, people will just assume you're wanting to grow drugs or have some sort of oppositional defiance disorder I just said i would be fine with big collective fields and i would also work on those fields because they are collective. i just want a portion for my own use, and yes i want to grow drugs and i want to share them with my community. whats wrong with that? is any individuality to be crushed? because i'm really trying to compromise here but your not giving me much to work with
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Jul 3, 2021 21:37
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Rutibex posted:I just said i would be fine with big collective fields and i would also work on those fields because they are collective. i just want a portion for my own use, and yes i want to grow drugs and i want to share them with my community. whats wrong with that? Uh, how do you think community gardens work?
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Jul 3, 2021 21:38
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Rutibex posted:is any individuality to be crushed? because i'm really trying to compromise here but your not giving me much to work with what has individuality done for you lately, anyway? I’d ask for my money back if I were you.
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Jul 3, 2021 21:46
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Epic High Five posted:Uh, how do you think community gardens work? i'm sure there are lots of ways community gardens can be organized. such as the way i just proposed
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Jul 3, 2021 21:46
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Rutibex posted:I just said i would be fine with big collective fields and i would also work on those fields because they are collective. i just want a portion for my own use, and yes i want to grow drugs and i want to share them with my community. whats wrong with that? you've had your answer for several pages now, and that answer amounts to "if circumstances allow for it". the reason you keep circling back to this point and responding to the most hostile or curt answers is that this has gone from a question about theory to a bid for attention. but, like i said, you're not actually important enough to be courted. there comes a time when one has to just make up their own drat mind
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Jul 3, 2021 22:04
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this whole conversation really illustrates how anarchism is liberalism in that the only thing it is concerned about are the specific freedoms of the totally atomic individual.
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Jul 3, 2021 22:09
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Ferrinus posted:you're not actually important enough to be courted that hurts. i promise if i figure out how to overthrow capitalism i'll totally share with you guys, but i understand if you dont feel the same way  Pentecoastal Elites posted:this whole conversation really illustrates how anarchism is liberalism in that the only thing it is concerned about are the specific freedoms of the totally atomic individual. people in america like individual freedoms, maybe there could be some kind of dialectic between marxist thought and liberalism to come to a synthesis that is superior to both?
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Jul 3, 2021 22:11
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Rutibex posted:i don't want a piece of currently existing farmland i want a piece of unclaimed wilderness so i can make it valuable with my own efforts. don't tell me there isn't enough of that to go around, because i know thats horseshit. Just because something is not being exploited in the manner you think it should does not mean it is "unclaimed wildness". Regulating how much land is used for crops and how much is left fallow or as wilderness is a critical governmental function, and your selfish desires definitely do not outweigh that. Wilderness has critical ecological functions beyond how much surplus value can be sucked from it. The type of settlement that you're describing is literally what led to the Dust Bowl, just let whoever chop up the land and do loving whatever. That was a social and ecological disaster. You have no right to be a Freeman on the Land, which is literally what I think you are now.
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Jul 3, 2021 22:12
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Rutibex posted:people in america like individual freedoms, maybe there could be some kind of dialectic between marxist thought and liberalism to come to a synthesis that is superior to both? the synthesis of liberal individual freedoms with preliberal communal life IS communism. Americans like a propagandized fantasy of “freedom”, the only real freedom we have is increasingly meaningless brand choice. you’re not free now in any way that matters. likewise “I should be able to run into the woods to be a self sustaining mountain man” is an equally puerile fantasy and it’s clear you have no idea what a life like that would entail. the idea that you think it represents some sort of “freedom” is a joke. providing for you and saving your rear end when you don’t grow enough potatoes to not starve impinges on the actual freedom of your fellow workers by creating a outrageously selfish labor sink.
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Jul 3, 2021 22:21
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I made this exact same point in the witchcraft thread: all political magic guys are anarchists because both ways of looking at the world are monomaniacally obsessed with personal individual freedoms and subjective individual experience and literally nothing else.
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Jul 3, 2021 22:24
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:the synthesis of liberal individual freedoms with preliberal communal life IS communism. i don't want to live in the wood i just want to run my own affairs. but everyone insisted that i would be a parasite for wanting that so i compromised and said i would be happy to just live in the woods and not be bothered by cops, but thats not acceptable either. it seems the only acceptable thing for me to do is whatever the committee wants. just like now where the only acceptable thing for me to do is what the capitalist wants.
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Jul 3, 2021 22:27
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I made this exact same point in the witchcraft thread: all political magic guys are anarchists because both ways of looking at the world are monomaniacally obsessed with personal individual freedoms and subjective individual experience and literally nothing else. I actually cast the spell to get rid of squizzle and consider myself a communist. 
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Jul 3, 2021 22:29
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Americans like a propagandized fantasy of “freedom”, the only real freedom we have is increasingly meaningless brand choice. you’re not free now in any way that matters. I can order a billion items from companies like INSMY, EBODA, LENRUE, Axloie, PRETTODAY, Bsubseach, OLRAIN, VIISHOW, Ckikiou, ROMWE, SCOZETR, GETIHU, BSSYO, and BENFISS on Amazon dot com what else do I need ??
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Jul 3, 2021 22:29
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I made this exact same point in the witchcraft thread: all political magic guys are anarchists because both ways of looking at the world are monomaniacally obsessed with personal individual freedoms and subjective individual experience and literally nothing else. ok lets get philosophical here. why should marxists (who all claim to be materialists) care about what happens after they die? what else is there but your finite existence on this planet? what is the point of building an ideal society you will never get to experience?
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Jul 3, 2021 22:32
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because you are a member of a class that you know beyond a reasonable doubt will continue to exist and hopefully might lead a better life with its future generations. being selfish and solipsistic is not a really huge part of communism.
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Jul 3, 2021 22:37
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Rutibex posted:i don't want to live in the wood i just want to run my own affairs. but everyone insisted that i would be a parasite for wanting that so i compromised and said i would be happy to just live in the woods and not be bothered by cops, but thats not acceptable either. In practice you would likely just die if you tried to completely just "run your own affairs."
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Jul 3, 2021 22:39
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Ytlaya posted:In practice you would likely just die if you tried to completely just "run your own affairs." i'm starting to come around to the idea of supporting them in this.
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Jul 3, 2021 22:46
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They're 99% of the way converted so probably just 10+ more pages of this should do it I think.
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Jul 3, 2021 22:47
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Dr. Poz posted:i'm starting to come around to the idea of supporting them in this. just ship me off to the wilderness, call it a gulag and say its a punishment. then everyone can be happy
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Jul 3, 2021 22:48
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Rutibex posted:i don't want a piece of currently existing farmland i want a piece of unclaimed wilderness so i can make it valuable with my own efforts. don't tell me there isn't enough of that to go around, because i know thats horseshit. Was a high wall there that tried to stop me A sign was painted said: Private Property, But on the back side it didn't say nothing — God blessed America for me. [This land was made for you and me.] One bright sunny morning in the shadow of the steeple By the Relief Office I saw my people — As they stood hungry, I stood there wondering if God blessed America for me. [This land was made for you and me.] also just the add clarification the tenet of modern anarchism is to like immediately sell out to and endorse fascist regimes
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Jul 3, 2021 22:52
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hobby farms already exist in america. whats to be done with the hobby farmers after the revolution? i know everyone says "we won't come for your personal property" but what about people that already own the land and tools they need for their personal work? will it be confiscated?
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Jul 3, 2021 22:54
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Rutibex posted:
there’s no way this is real
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Jul 3, 2021 22:57
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Rutibex posted:i don't want to live in the wood i just want to run my own affairs. but everyone insisted that i would be a parasite for wanting that so i compromised and said i would be happy to just live in the woods and not be bothered by cops, but thats not acceptable either. https://twitter.com/VoxPVoxD/status/1256078368568676352?s=20
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Jul 3, 2021 23:11
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You have a very vague and shifting idea of what constitutes your "personal affairs" and what a transgression upon them would entail As for the hobby farmers, well I doubt people in the desert doing xeriscaping or people doing productive things with their hobbies like breeding hardier or more productive hybrids are going to have the state knocking at their door because it's either marginal land in the first place or socially productive. Same as how nobody is gonna get gulaged for spending their weekend building a chair. If someone used a big trust fund to buy a bunch of land to start a lifestyle blog Instagram from, well yeah they're probably not coming out the other side of a left revolution with all that Socialism isnt everybody being assigned a politburo who dictates their every affair. You'll mostly be left to your own devices like in most other forms of government, only less precarious. What you seem to want is a community garden plot, which definitely will exist under socialism, so dont worry
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Jul 3, 2021 23:18
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the distribution of arable land, management of agriculture, and treatment of the peasantry has historically been a huge deal in like every existing socialist project, and a look at basically any one will be instructive because it reveals that - just like any other ruling class, including the bourgeoisie and the feudal monarchy - the proletariat need to be judicious in how they treat with (other) working classes, particularly the one that produces all the food, and the extent to which they can be generous vs. heavy-handed changes with circumstances the ussr started out under "war communism", a dictatorial planned economy in which resources were just brusquely requisitioned as needed because the bolsheviks were literally at war against both internal forces of reaction and foreign invaders war communism left the ussr in economic dire straits and severely strained relations with the peasantry, so the bolsheviks made what lenin called a tactical retreat with the New Economic Policy or "NEP", which basically backed off the peasants and allowed them to trade and enrich themselves in the traditional fashion in hopes that market relations would grow the country's economy while still being subordinate to the socialist government when grain prices and things started getting fucky under the NEP, and the nazis were visibly growing in power next door, the bolsheviks ended the NEP and began a program of farm collectivization in hopes of rationalizing national agriculture and using the increased output to fuel the heavy industrialization needed to be able to field tanks. they basically just loaned out tractors and things for free to any agricultural community willing to collectivize, but were also more aggressive in collecting proceeds, which in the long term ended the periodic famines that had previously afflicted the country but, in the short term, after a few years of collectivization that went much more violently and caused much more ill will than was initially planned or expected (it should be noted that this violence came "from below" as much as "from above"; there were a lot of feuds and contradictions within the peasantry that collectivization had basically given the go-ahead to break out into full warfare), the bolsheviks deliberately put out proclamations slowing farm collectivization down and tamp down on bloodshed and negative sentiment the takeaway here is that super-specific questions about whether you'll get your own bedroom or have to share a bunkbed are stupid and meaningless. the answer is always "it depends" because there is no actually-existing socialism which does not adapt to circumstances
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Jul 3, 2021 23:29
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Epic High Five posted:What you seem to want is a community garden plot, which definitely will exist under socialism, so dont worry alright sounds good. so whens the revolution comrades?
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Jul 3, 2021 23:30
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Ferrinus posted:the distribution of arable land, management of agriculture, and treatment of the peasantry has historically been a huge deal in like every existing socialist project, and a look at basically any one will be instructive because it reveals that - just like any other ruling class, including the bourgeoisie and the feudal monarchy - the proletariat need to be judicious in how they treat with (other) working classes, particularly the one that produces all the food, and the extent to which they can be generous vs. heavy-handed changes with circumstances and of course at every stage there was at least a small group of people who were like argh, the revolution has been betrayed, this change in tactics heralds the death of True Socialism, i can no longer be part of this foul charade, good day sir,
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Jul 3, 2021 23:32
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Rutibex posted:alright sounds good. so whens the revolution comrades? tomorrow
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Jul 3, 2021 23:39
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Ferrinus posted:the takeaway here is that super-specific questions about whether you'll get your own bedroom or have to share a bunkbed are stupid and meaningless. the answer is always "it depends" because there is no actually-existing socialism which does not adapt to circumstances thats entirely fair. but in principal under ideal circumstances i could have my mushroom farm? thats all i ask for. i like to have something to look forward to
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Jul 3, 2021 23:43
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