(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's hard to explain to people who aren't American that America really is a purely ideological project with no real basis in national identity. You can't just slot in socialism as a genuine alternative for how the country should be run because "America" is a liberal idea. What nation has a "basis" of any kind?
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 08:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 23:07 |
|
|
Yossarian-22 posted:What nation has a "basis" of any kind? SERBIAN CLAY
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 08:23
|
|
|
Albanian autochthony.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 08:33
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:Albanian autochthony. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 09:07
|
|
|
Yossarian-22 posted:What nation has a "basis" of any kind? 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 09:12
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's hard to explain to people who aren't American that America really is a purely ideological project with no real basis in national identity. You can't just slot in socialism as a genuine alternative for how the country should be run because "America" is a liberal idea.  eventually they become americans tho
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 09:18
|
|
|
The Magna Carta foreshadows proletarian rule. Socialism is the birthright of every Englishman.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 10:53
|
|
|
"How are we going to spoonfeed socialism to Americans" was a thought I had when I still thought socialism could be voted in, when in the States at least I don't see it being remotely viable outside of a large-scale disaster and infrastructure failing for months on end. I agree with whoever said that making socialism more appealing to Americans is basically just throwing those people under the bus who should be making up our vanguard. I don't know what there is to salvage. A name and a flag maybe, but nothing else that even superficially resembles the country we once were.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 14:12
|
|
|
I think we should call it turtle island again that's a killer loving name
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 14:16
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's hard to explain to people who aren't American that America really is a purely ideological project with no real basis in national identity. You can't just slot in socialism as a genuine alternative for how the country should be run because "America" is a liberal idea. We have a saying here, a quip by one of our foremost thinkers: "Brazilians are foreigners in their own homeland". What country in America isn't an ideological construct?
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 15:21
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:You can definitely frame leftist ideology in American rhetoric. Talk about the "independence" to own control your workplace and own your home, the "rights" that are trampled by employers, etc. There is a deep, deep hatred of "bankers" on the right, and if you focus on them as the source of all evils you will find them happy to poo poo on Bill Gates. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 15:29
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 15:42
|
|
|
MSDOS KAPITAL posted:hold on a sec did lenin speak the russian revolution into existence? wild if true lmao, come on, you are a sharp poster, slotting that hyperbole in is just too cheap BUT we can use that. One of the things the man did was to speak and speak really loving well. Lenin alone stood for the peasantry in the bolshevik leadership and again, went to talk to them. What I am trying to get at is that we need to talk to people to build socialism, and to use whatever resources are available to make that point. Such as So... Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, the Irish revolutionaries, Latin American and African socialists used "the nation" as a basic argument. Are Americans that much exceptional in that regard that is impossible to seize upon that? I don't think so. Maybe I should bring another example that might be more in sentiment: why not Eugene Debs? He used the Fourth of July to make a point for internationalist socialism, blasting the stars and stripes, the American government, the faults of the constitution and yet took the words from liberal figures, seizing a date that is very liberal, to help signify what he meant: Eugene Debs, 4th of July Speech posted:I am a patriot, but in the sense that I love all countries. I love the sentiment of William L. Garrison: “All the world is my country and all mankind are my countrymen.” Thomas Jefferson once said: “Where liberty is, is my country.” That is good. Thomas Paine said: “Where liberty is honored, that is my country.” That is better. Where liberty is not, Socialism has a mission, and, therefore, the mission of Socialism is as wide as the world.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 15:50
|
|
|
dead gay comedy forums posted:lmao, come on, you are a sharp poster, slotting that hyperbole in is just too cheap 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 15:54
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 16:03
|
|
|
Yossarian-22 posted:We need to start calling the U.S. post-Civil War the "second republic" and try our best to throw out everything before 1865 yeah we are in the death throes of the 1965 republic
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 16:33
|
|
|
I’d say the second republic died in 68 when Dems opened the floodgates for corporate donations/lobbyists
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 16:41
|
|
|
I go with 1965 because it ended the civil war. sort of.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 16:43
|
|
|
I wish I could go back to the time before I knew who this was
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 16:45
|
|
|
dead gay comedy forums posted:We have a saying here, a quip by one of our foremost thinkers: "Brazilians are foreigners in their own homeland". drat it's almost like all the countries in this hemisphere are colonial projects 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 16:50
|
|
|
Ho Chi Minh himself literally invoked American values for Vietnam more than I'd be comfortable with doing for America. Poor guy got swindled by Woodrow Wilson's "self-determination" nonsense
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 17:08
|
|
|
OK baizuo posted:Yeah, it's this. If, in the broadest sense, leftists are those who identify and seek to eliminate systems of oppression, like taxes and bras and feudal rights sometimes quote:it should not come as a surprise for leftists to seek the destruction of American society as it currently exists. It has always been rotten, hypocritical, and a farse ever since Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence while owning hundreds of slaves. destruction of society is def a liberal psychosis since liberalism is a gnostic philosophy rooted in the negation of "evil" humanity and nature into ideal mathematical abstraction and solipsism leftism without Communist analysis is the logical end result of gnostic liberalism at its peak: nihilism of all social institutions all social order and civilization for a tabula rasa that cannot exist without nuclear fire the current society has reached its limits and the role of "the left" is to provide not just a puritanical scold analysis of how horrible everything is but also what is possible for the future its time to face reality would you like fries with your order?
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 17:20
|
|
|
euphronius posted:I go with 1965 because it ended the civil war. sort of. history's real weird in your universe ain't it
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 17:33
|
|
|
euphronius posted:it kind of made sense to me but the idea that the primary stage of socialism in China is going to last another 100 years seems strange to me on two fronts china already has everything it needs to run a planned economy but its planned economy is based on commanding heights only this was Stalin's original contribution not many know this for some reason, but Stalin had central balanced planning only for technological innovation, infrastructure, education and means of production. He did not want to touch consumer goods too much. Consumer goods were created by artels (producer cooperatives) which employed 10% of the population and were only bound to an indicative plan but mostly were given broad governmental support for growth and technological innovation alongside collective farming. The goal was to grow the free association of producers not the state enterprises Khrushchev for some reason thought that the state also has to plan how socks are manufactured and liquidated the artels in 1956 alongside most of the planning apparatus into an anarchist paradise of planning from below (it was a disaster) Due to the rapid pace of technological innovation, new means of production have become prominent, specifically data and information management. China is still growing the state planning apparatus because data is a means of production and it has to control that before trying to go for other transformations that;s my take
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 17:40
|
|
|
Yossarian-22 posted:What nation has a "basis" of any kind? mostly its a shared history, economy, language and proximity a national spirit is an unconscious thing but in general you know it when you see it
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 17:52
|
|
|
Yossarian-22 posted:What nation has a "basis" of any kind? https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03.htm
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 17:55
|
|
|
well aside from giving Hawaii and Native Americans full autonomy within USian borders I don’t see how that stuff doesn’t apply to the United States
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 17:56
|
|
|
Top City Homo posted:china already has everything it needs to run a planned economy but its planned economy is based on commanding heights only that's interesting, i didn't know that
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 17:56
|
|
|
Stalin posted:A nation is formed only as a result of lengthy and systematic intercourse 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 18:00
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:that's interesting, i didn't know that i've been reading GOSPLAN and GOELPLAN literature as created by the central planning officials themselves. This stuff was classified before but its incredible stuff. It's literally applied marxist economics
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 18:11
|
|
|
Top City Homo posted:i've been reading GOSPLAN and GOELPLAN literature as created by the central planning officials themselves. This stuff was classified before but its incredible stuff. It's literally applied marxist economics can't up this post enough. imo it is amazingly interesting and I only skimmed the surface to complement what you said, "planning for socks" is the correct idea (in terms of benefitting from planned economics) as the advantages of economies of scale compound in a much greater rate than a pulverized low density production. The problem in this scenario is figuring out the logistics, and this was the Big loving Issue of planning that made a lot of things very difficult for the USSR (had Lenin or Stalin been with the access to the logistical organization that Amazon and Wal-Mart have nowadays, the USSR would have completely and utterly destroyed the entire question of domestic consumption)
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 18:30
|
|
|
Top City Homo posted:mostly its a shared history, economy, language and proximity If you look at family histories of any country they mostly involve a lot of moving around. Moreover, "national consciousness" is an incredibly novel thing in most of the world as people used to feel loyal to their monarchs. The U.S. is actually one of the older "nation-states" as such despite being such an unusual amalgamation of peoples. And then of course language becomes an issue when it becomes a way of excluding or denigrating people who speak other languages in the respective country. Even people who speak different dialects of the dominant language are forced to assimilate in the process of nation-state formation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 18:36
|
|
|
One of the issues in (but not necessarily unique to) an American take on socialism is that it would probably work better if it weren't called socialism, due to the lifelong conditioning of more than half a century's worth of Americans to see socialism as a nightmare dystopian dictatorship that hates you, yes you, little Charlie and Susie, personally. (To the point where, even knowing better, it's hard for me not to knee-jerk see it that way sometimes.) I suspect we're starting to see that go away but it'll be a few decades before it's gone completely. (Obviously rebranding everything as, I dunno, Americans Coming Together or something would be a dealbreaker for a lot of people in much the same way that using nationalist rhetoric at all would be.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 18:44
|
|
|
Universal Self Employment. BYOB: Be Your Own Boss. Democratic Workplaces. Guns 4 All.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 18:48
|
|
|
Bullets are cheaper than rent
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 18:49
|
|
|
Yossarian-22 posted:Ho Chi Minh himself literally invoked American values for Vietnam more than I'd be comfortable with doing for America. Poor guy got swindled by Woodrow Wilson's "self-determination" nonsense You can blame the French for teaching things like the Rights of Man in Vietnamese schools, even though Vietnamese people under colonial rule had none of the rights of French citizens.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 19:32
|
|
|
1965 was the first time political rights were available to all Americans more or less so it seems like a good demarcation for a “new republic”
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 20:21
|
|
|
euphronius posted:1965 was the first time political rights were available to all Americans more or less so it seems like a good demarcation for a “new republic” 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 20:24
|
|
|
euphronius posted:1965 was the first time political rights were available to all Americans more or less so it seems like a good demarcation for a “new republic” of course once the franchise was established universally the goal became to make it worthless
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 20:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 23:07 |
|
|
Brain Candy posted:of course once the franchise was established universally the goal became to make it worthless yeah exactly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2021 20:30
|
|