Beefeater1980 posted:

I learned to drink a fuckton in my 20s because that was what City Lawyers Did. I kept it up in my 30s even after leaving the profession because it was what I did. Now I don’t really want to do it any more but it’s pretty ingrained.

Borrovan posted:

If that works for you, great. What it doesn't do though is address the absurd. A lot of people who try to leave the world a better place struggle with the concept that all of their efforts will ultimately come to nothing, and become depressed. Absurdism gets around that. Others might not acknowledge that at all, and always feel that they need to be doing more, and become depressed because there's such a strict limit on exactly what one person can do. Or, struggling to come to terms with the absurd might cause people so much anguish that they ultimately don't have the emotional wherewithal to really do much to make the world better, so they might see their life as lacking meaning. Embracing the absurd means acknowledging that actually that's not the case, do or don't, your life still has meaning - which, ultimately, can help people to do more good regardless.

Another trap that some people (hi) fall into with deriving meaning from doing good is that it's hard to justify the stuff that you do just for you. To my mind, you've basically got four choices: just ignore the problem (then become miserable because your life lacks meaning by your own measure); just don't do stuff for yourself (then become miserable, burn out, ultimately do less good, become more miserable); justify it on the basis that you've done your part so you're entitled to it (the danger here is that, if you're the reflective type, you might recognise the potential for motivated reasoning and so err on the side of not seeing value in doing things for you, become miserable, burn out, &c); or, justify it on the basis that it's essential maintenance in order to make it so you are capable of doing good at other times. The problem with the last one (in my extensive experience thinking like that) is that it's bad for your self esteem to just see yourself as a "tool" to be "maintained", rather than having intrinsic value anyway & doing stuff just for you to have intrinsic worth. Then, that lack of self-esteem makes you miserable, &c.

These problems become especially hard if you just can't do much good for whatever reason. Maybe you just get old, & regardless of what you've done in the past it's hard to see your continued life as meaningful. Or some people might have disabilities and just be incapable of interacting in the world much at all, for good or bad. Absurdism allows them to find meaning in just spending months building a kickass dwarf fortress settlement or w/e. To take a less extreme example, you agreed that the kind ditch-digger's life has meaning - but, what if that person was generally kind-hearted, but just antisocial, so didn't particularly do any good? Or, if they saw value in doing good, they might feel that their life lacks meaning as compared to the activist, because they just aren't able to do that kind of (more far-reaching) stuff. I don't think any reasonable system of morality would judge any of these people harshly, but it's an easy pitfall in judging your own actions by reference to whether or not you make the world better, because of the core problem in judging your own moral worth:

That's not actually a problem in absurdism, because it involves recognising that all action is ultimately futile so who cares. If you're judging yourself by your moral worth though, then drat right you should be thinking about that - people who don't even question whether their moral assessment might be wrong are, ime, the kind of people who tend to be wrong. And if you are questioning it, then you ultimately have to conclude that you have no idea whether you're right or not, which, if you view your life having purpose as being contingent on "doing right", means you've just got to live with not knowing whether your life has meaning or not. Separating "meaning" from "virtue" allows you to just be, your existence stops being contingent on fundamentally unanswerable questions so those questions become much less urgent, so you can reflect on them much more clearly & impartially (imo).

Like I don't mean to poo poo on your worldview here, like I said, if it works for you, great. It definitely did not work for me though. I identify a lot with the kinds of examples that I've given here, so embracing absurdity and finding meaning in obviously pointless activities makes me much happier, and, therefore, much more able to actually do good things.

hello it is me the theistic absurdist, I'd say ama but honestly please don't because

Beefeater1980 posted:

AA creeps me out. Either I win this on my own terms or I lose it.

Beefeater1980 posted:

I learned to drink a fuckton in my 20s because that was what City Lawyers Did. I kept it up in my 30s even after leaving the profession because it was what I did. Now I don’t really want to do it any more but it’s pretty ingrained.

Beefeater1980 posted:

Yes to both? I’m religious enough to believe in God but not irreligious enough to believe that He would be terribly exercised about my relationship with the vine. AA creeps me out. Either I win this on my own terms or I lose it.

Xeno posted:

The Monster Munch chat is much more interesting than this philosophical one, and also contributes more to our existence.

Barry Foster posted:

Excellent post

Jakabite posted:

I’ve recently had to cut down my (also pretty habitual) drinking recently and I’ve found a few things have helped:

- Taking a solid break of at least a week without any booze just to sort of break the cycle.

- Only drinking on social occasions that are already planned around drinking. If going to meet a friend I’ll go for coffee, but for the something like an England game I know I’ll want to drink and resent the whole thing if I miss it or sit there with a lemonade the whole time.

- When drinking only drink standard strength lager, always have a pint of water sat there (a lot of my issue is I’m just a fast drinker of anything, I get thirsty, so if I have something else to sup I don’t drink as fast), and intersperse drinking beer with non-alcie beer.

- if you fancy a drink at home have a non-alcoholic version. I was surprised at how much of my desire to drink was the ritual of, for instance, popping the cap off a green glass bottle and swigging back the taste of a beer, as opposed to just ‘being drunk’.

Obviously this is just what’s worked for me and might not be of any use at all for you but thought I’d share in case any of it is helpful.

Barry Foster posted:

Jakabite posted:

Becks Blue is decent for replicating swill, Moretti weirdly has quite an ipa vibe to it, and nanny state is well regarded. Not tried to Stella one. You can get alcohol free wine now too tho I don’t know how good it is, and alcohol free gin is real nice.

Barry Foster posted:

Thanks for the input but it seems like most people seem to have gotten quite a lot out of it so maybe just check back with the thread in a few days and see if it's more to your taste.

Xeno posted:

The Monster Munch chat is much more interesting than this philosophical one, and also contributes more to our existence.

knox_harrington posted:

The one I like best is Erdinger Alkoholfrei which it looks like you can get in Tescos

https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/263042455

Tarnop posted:

It really was! Thank you, Borrovan, for all the effort

Bobby Deluxe posted:

Username / post paradox.

Jakabite posted:

I’ve recently had to cut down my (also pretty habitual) drinking recently and I’ve found a few things have helped:

- Taking a solid break of at least a week without any booze just to sort of break the cycle.

- Only drinking on social occasions that are already planned around drinking. If going to meet a friend I’ll go for coffee, but for the something like an England game I know I’ll want to drink and resent the whole thing if I miss it or sit there with a lemonade the whole time.

- When drinking only drink standard strength lager, always have a pint of water sat there (a lot of my issue is I’m just a fast drinker of anything, I get thirsty, so if I have something else to sup I don’t drink as fast), and intersperse drinking beer with non-alcie beer.

- if you fancy a drink at home have a non-alcoholic version. I was surprised at how much of my desire to drink was the ritual of, for instance, popping the cap off a green glass bottle and swigging back the taste of a beer, as opposed to just ‘being drunk’.

Obviously this is just what’s worked for me and might not be of any use at all for you but thought I’d share in case any of it is helpful.

Guavanaut posted:

SMART (Self-Management and Recovery Training) and LifeRing have similar recovery rates but without all the 12 step badness or trying to convince you that the moment you leave you'll take one sip of beer and then drink yourself to death. Because more often than not that's not true.

Barry Foster posted:

I'm a bit younger than you but my historical alcohol abuse (which still continues, though far less than before) was also environmentally mediated, at least to start with (then it became a coping strategy). If it's not just habit, but a coping strategy, then you need to get to the bottom of what's bothering you. Addiction is environmental, end of story. It gets worse with anxiety and stress and gets really bad when the despair kicks in.

I am finding therapy immensely helpful, although it's a long, hard, slow process.

I also found that substitution with a less deletrious habit was a decent stop gap - in my case weed - but I can understand that if you're in your 40s with a wife and kids that may not fly.

Good luck, though. I wish I never started. It's been a ball and chain my whole life

EDIT

If you really want to win it you're not going to be able to do it on your own. I know that's not exactly synonymous with "on my own terms", but still, worth bearing in mind

JollyBoyJohn posted:

partly because my parents were quite open about it so there was almost zero mystery or naughtiness or whatever

Bobby Deluxe posted:

I sort of feel like that should be a qualifier for most psychological treatments, accepting that a lot of the time it's not you that's wrong, it's that you can't handle the awful bullshit going on around you.

sinky posted:

Exciting Brexit Benefit: Getting crushed by an HGV after the driver falls asleep at the wheel

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1412777926211289099?s=20

quote:

...

A confidential survey of road hauliers and HGV drivers has found that 29 per cent admit to having fallen asleep at the wheel while driving.

The study, conducted by the Unite workers’ union, questioned over 4,000 lorry drivers and found the shocking number who admit to having fallen asleep on the road. Of those who admitted to nodding off, 64.4 per cent blamed their work for their fatigue, citing long days and insufficient provision for rest.

....

falling asleep at the wheel accounts for around 20 per cent of serious collisions on motorways and similar roads – rising to almost 50 per cent of collisions on UK motorways between 2am and 6am.

...

Angrymog posted:

Didn't there used to be real problems with drivers falling asleep at the wheel and ploughing across several lanes of motorway?

goddamnedtwisto posted:

Serious talk for a second, the main reason I keep going back to do shifts at vaccination centres (and why I'll have to find something similar to replace it when it ends) is I've discovered, to my utter surprise considering I've had almost half a century of considering myself an antisocial misanthrope, that I actually like helping people.

When I did my first shifts I felt a bit pointless as often the work is stuff you could literally do with some raffle tickets and a couple of bits of cardboard but I've realised that just the human connection of someone pointing you to the right chair rather than having to find it yourself, the occasional little bit of light banter and dad-jokes, or even just being there and looking like you know what's going on takes the edge off of what is even for the most self-reliant person a discomfiting and unpleasant experience. Just little stuff like finding an extra chair if someone has a friend/partner/relative with them for moral support, or taking the all-important pic of them getting the jab - in a tiny, tiny way I've just made that person's life a little bit better, and I get to do that for sometimes hundreds of people at a time. It's an addictive feeling, I've got to say.

The thing is though - there's a tiny bit of me that worries I'm sort of negating the altruism there. It's a really weird thing, and possibly some strange suppressed Protestant Work Ethic complex, but I do actually feel a tiny bit of guilt if I have too much fun doing it, like somehow - if there is a Good Place - I'm knocking something off my score because I'm having a good time. I wonder if the RVS have a special model hi-vis that can fit over a hair shirt to counteract it?

Jakabite posted:

I think the way that ‘dealing with an unhealthy relationship with alcohol’ is so often made into ‘quitting altogether, right now’ probably leads to a lot of people never bothering to deal with it at all. Some people need to quit this second, and some people will need to quit soon, but I think the majority of people with issues with alcohol (which let’s face it is probably upwards of 50% of adults in the U.K.) would benefit from a more moderating approach. I know I tried to quite entirely a few times and every times it’s not only made me miserable, it’s failed and resulted in no progress whatsoever. I’ve recently accepted that I do want to continue drinking but in a far healthier and more moderated way and it’s already working our way, way better. That’s not to say that quitting entirely isn’t a great thing to do for a ton of people like.

Jakabite posted:

I’d also second what Barry said about underlying issues. People don’t tend to throw themselves to the dogs of booze when they’re feeling good about life and themselves. Underlying issues usually take at least months if not many years to really sort though so getting control of your drinking in the meantime is pretty essential.

Borrovan posted:

Conversely, my parents were quite open about it so I was brought up on the assumption that getting shitfaced every night is just what you do

Bobstar posted:

This is a very important thing, which links back to a wider concept which is kind of e/n-like; the massive imbalance of importance of a thing. Vaccination being the perfect example. For the person being jabbed, this is an enormous deal, the Big Day after months and months of waiting, their part in a way out of the pandemic (maybe). For the jabber, they're just arm number 97 of the day, out of thousands of arms they've jabbed so far.

Having someone there to bridge that gap between import and routine is vital to stop the experience being alienating for the jabbee, but also to keep the line moving - a purely robotic and austere system would jam up with confused patients, while the jabbers get increasingly frustrated because it's obvious where to stand, it's obvious what to do, it's obvious how to sit, because they've been seeing it every day.

And this applies more widely, the skill of keeping up that empathy, of remembering that (for the first dose at least) this is the first time most of these people have seen/done anything like this. And that's hard to do, but it would improve most "customer service" type experiences immeasurably more than forcing people to smile, or wear a certain hat, or whatever.

goddamnedtwisto posted:

Almost every job I've done has - ultimately - boiled down effectively to sales or customer service... and I hate that I'm good at it. It feels so insincere when I'm schmoozing a client or flattering colleagues to get what I want done, done. To be able to use those skills for an undoubted good is massively liberating.

minema posted:

This is why I went into physiotherapy - I basically convince people that Exercise Is Good for a living. I'm sure there'd be plenty of other similar jobs with a similar vibe