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super sweet best pal posted:
Codependent Poster posted:Spaceballs still rules. Ok, maybe I've overstated how badly it's aged, but I don't think it holds up nearly as well as Blazing Saddles or anything. I remember liking it a lot when I was a kid and not being very impressed when I watched it again as a teenager, and I think the cultural opinion of it dropped off in about the same way. Plus there was that inexplicable animated series in the 2000s...
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Jul 7, 2021 21:51
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Spaceballs is still pretty great.
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SpaceBalls is still a fun ride (we got the creeps, the bleeps and the sweeps), but it still has all those Dru-ish princess jokes which are pretty fuckin yikes in TYOOL 2021, plus whatever I'm not remembering off the top of my head.
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Jul 8, 2021 03:49
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Dalris Othaine posted:SpaceBalls is still a fun ride (we got the creeps, the bleeps and the sweeps), but it still has all those Dru-ish princess jokes which are pretty fuckin yikes in TYOOL 2021, plus whatever I'm not remembering off the top of my head. Mel Brooks can get a pass on those jokes, I think. And sure it's not a classic like Blazing Saddles, but few movies are. It's still got Rick Moranis at his best and so it's always gonna hold up thanks to his performance. But anyway, yeah, the joke with Sandurz seeing the camera moving in and getting out of the way isn't something that people miss.
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Jul 8, 2021 04:28
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best part of that scene was Michael Winslow trying not to laugh during his next line following Moranis ripping out the PA handset
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Jul 8, 2021 04:48
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zombie alive
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Jul 8, 2021 04:59
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Chapter 20: The Shadow of Sigfried Part 1 Mookie starts out strong in his misogyany with a stealth PMS joke, that he then conveniently explains away with more nonsense Callanian politics. Though I love that both Luna and Dominic agree that his punishment was unfair, really underlining how vastly different Mookie's understanding of snowsong was compared to his reader base. I also feel like this cutaway as punchline thing would work a lot better in a TV show, which I feel is where he stole it from. As it is, in a silent comic format, I don't think it reads as clever so much as disjointed in the narrative. Also, since were going to be in hell, you know that there's going to be a lot of extremely unnecessary bloodshed and over-the-top gore  And again, nice undercutting of the somber tone with stupid puns. I will say that I find Mookie's gore almost comical because his demons don't really feel like I'm in a flash, more like they're blood filled gummies. It didn't really feel like there's bones or anything for Siggy to be cutting through, just lumps of jiggly tissue  Here's another case oh Mookie's lack of creativity, where a bunch of pagan spell wielding werewolves still operate their school more or less exactly like an American College. I just hate that he says lecture here, it's just so boring.  Also, underlining Milov's status as a protagonist, of course his lecture is all about how awesome he is. It's hard not to read something into it when every time Mookie is writing a protagonist, the narrative bends around them to point out how special and unique that character is.  I don't hate this interaction, or the wink wink set up to it. I think it's kind of cute, and of the characters were in a better comic I would like it  Be prepared for a lot of this! Illusions and fake outs, and quick reversals of what appeared to have just happened! As bad as Mookie was about this before, it's this arc and subsequent ones where really revs into high gear, and every impressive set pieces almost universally some psycho cleaner nonsense or an illusion happening, because Mookie can never think his way out of the corners he writes himself into.  It's only in reading this arc now that I realize that the whole irrational natives hating on the well-meaning colonizers motif actually applies to the winter archipelago as well as Maltak. The vagueness of Mookie's world means that it's hard to tell what exactly is implied by the Luanian request to build a church in this land. Are the Luanians evangelical? If so, how do they relate to the temporal powers in the lands they spread to? What's the association of the church with the kingdom of Callan, who seemed to be the main practitioners of the religion, and at least have some ties between the government and the church given that the cathedral takes on rehabilitation cases for criminals. Does the fact that the kingdom of Callan, within living memory, waged an apparent expansionist war with the help of literally infernal powers matter at all to thw Werewolves? Were there Luanian churches in Maltak prior to the invasion? They actually sound like Jesuits, who absolutely were out to shift power structures and convert people to Christianity even as they learned the language and customs of the lands they went to. That's not even supposed to be a moral judgement on the Jesuits, I'm just saying that there's no reason to believe that the Luanians are purely neutral in their interest here. All of this is left as an exercise for the reader to guess. Instead we are given the information that Boris is dumb in so goddamn crazy. So of course his position is wrong.  See this is actually the potential seed for good conflict. Milov is torn between the world he now inhabits and his homeland, which is hostile to a nation that they have good reason to be sceptical of. This is in a lot of layers of tradition, culture, politics and history. So course movies and ignore all that and focus instead on that adulturous whore, Jayden.  Jokey strip, and given the strip that immediately follows it, incredibly out of place as well. Also, Mookie realize way too much on the barf humour. And we haven't even gotten to the strip where Dominic throwing up is what causes Szark to fall out of love with him, because Szark is a prissy homosexual  Everybody needed a quick reminder that one of Dominic's students is totally hot for him, but he's too good to sleep with her.  So yes, the punishment was only for a week, and Dominic and Luna were still bitching about it as if it was a great abuse of power. And yes, this is going to be a Nimmel heavy arc, and the set up for the absolutely execrable "A Nimmel House" arc. Taste that pun. Roll it around in your mouth. That's what we had to look forward to.  It's actually incredibly inconsistent that Nimmel would even be able to go to the coldfire Academy if the werewolves are so isolationist normally. It just undercuts the whole drama that Mookie is setting up. It actually feels like a weird American privilege blindness, like he can't conceive of the fact that there might be a place where his protagonist would literally not be welcome, like legally barred from entering. I'm just saying, even in the modern world if you aren't from the right country your passport can be worth a lot less in terms of the travel privileges it brings you, so it's funny that even in this medieval system with no overarching global organizations, there still apparently a functioning transnational University system, across different fantasy races even?  See, then we have stuff like this! It would be good to know exactly what sort of danger and what sort of culture our protagonists are sailing to.  ehhh, I'm willing to concede to Mookie that his is some lighthearted fun, even if the song is a little lame. I don't hate it as a one off thing  So course Mookie has to make it weird. Why does everything have to be about sex? That's actually something that's really standing out to me in the second read through. So many major or incidental plot points revolve around sex, or kink/"perversion", or infidelity, and so many of the jokes centre around giggling about genitalia and boobs, that it really just saturates the whole comic in a way that I didn't pick up on as a kid. Even here, the other was apparently nudist werewolves, still apparently have some sort of taboo against non furry uncovered breasts. So there still this taboo sexual angle to it even in a culture that Mookie is establishing doesn't seem to have any nudity taboos! It's all Mookie can think of!  Jayden pulling a Luna here. Now I'm going to spoil the arc here a bit and say that Jayden is actually mistaken in believing that she is the reason that Siegfried went to hell. Her sin, she is going to realize, was not recognizing that Siegfried was a bad person in the first place. That's right, her sin is was sleeping with the jock. Here's where we start seeing the misogyny come through, since this arc is entirely going to be about the fact that Jayden stuck with Siegfried once, and how unforgivable that is.  Wordy but otherwise innocous filler strip. Katya is a hosed up character though, just you wait and see.  Okay, I understand that the Deeganverse isn't really an analog to medieval Europe, and that fantasy settings can have whatever rules their author wants. But age restricted drinking laws are all a product of prohibition, or similar movements around that time. Even though the UK didn't have full prohibition ever, it was in the 20s that they instituted a minimum age for the sale of alcohol because no one cared about alcohol consumption until it became a serious problem in industrial settings and industrial cities. I hate it so much that this is basically a fantasy American coming to fantasy Russia, and in fantasy Russia the joke is that the kids drink vodka. Russia has the same prohibitions on selling to the young that most of the world adopted. This is basically Mookie is dealing in lazy stereotypes.  Here again Mookie does the weird thing of calling out a behaviour from the previous trip that I'm assuming people in the forms commented on, and trying to excuse it away by saying that the character was stressed. I think you're really starting to see the "Mookie directly response to his fan base"feedback loop start to take hold here.  Filler Strip. Nothing wrong with it except I've long since lost my patience with the magibabble and I'm annoyed every time Dominic explains something like this. Of course Lunar divination allows him to see everything like Dominic does, that just what it does! What do you mean, I haven't said what specifically makes it different from other kinds of divitination! That doesn't matter! You just need to know that Milov is special.  again, this could be compelling drama, and it could be Dominic finally getting his comeuppance for just manipulating people and not being honest with them. But no, this isn't even going to register at all is a betrayal in exactly 2 strips!  Dominic can never be chastened in any way, he can never be humble or apologetic. He's always smug, and always has a hook or explanation as to why he did what he did.  So important it got a full page spread in color: the true, important betrayal at the heart of this arc, and the one that "shatters the pack" forever. Love that extremely natural pose too.  It would be useful if we knew what the Luanian religion said about sex. As it stands, it seems like this supposedly neutral and enlightened religion is just as prudish and sex-negative as real-life Christianity. Ditto, it would be good if we understood anything about the spellwold culture, or how they might view infidelity. I mean, Jayden doesn't appear to even be living with Milov, they don't appear to be married, so what sort of promise did they make to each other? I bring this up, because I don't think that there's anything necessarily wrong with making infidelity plot point in your story. Relationships and monogamy means different things to different people so you can have it be a legitimate betrayal for someone to sleep with someone who is in their significant other. But the ramifications of this act are going to be extreme, and I don't like that Mookie takes it for granted that this culture he's presenting must automatically have these social norms built into it. Just like with the church, Mookie's laziness is copy patient from our world means that he's presenting the site is that I think are more evil and bad then what he is was intending, at least from his reader's perspective.  Milov proves himself to be a rational individual and goes on a crazy rampage. He'll apologize for this later of course, but I can't help but feel that Mookie was catharticly raging along with Milov at this point.  And here's the first instance of the really gristly misoginist imagery of this arc. There's something about the viciousness in the way that Mookie drew Milov literally tearing Jayden's throat open, and her dead on the ground, that is gross. Not because it's a woman being killed either, but because this is explicitly the immediate reaction of the man who has been cheated on. It's this enacting of violence towards the significant other that is just too reminiscent of real-life, and given how Jayden is going to lay the blame for all this squarely on herself, and that she will actually be physically assaulted later in this arc, I don't give Mookie a pass just because it's an "illusion" or Milov apologizing later for "losing control". Mookie is the author is in total control of everything that we see and read, and he chose to draw Jayden dying this violently immediately after revealing her infidelity. That is symbolic punishment. That is misogyny. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 08:47
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Jesus loving Christ. God drat is this gross as gently caress. I wish there was commentary to break that up but I mean... what is there to say, really?
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Jul 8, 2021 08:59
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I can't believe Milov killed oh wait nevermind it's an illusion because nothing bad can happen to designated good guys (which is to say Milov can't accidentally become a murderer, Jayden has to suffer for being an evil witch who sends men to hell through sex).
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Jul 8, 2021 09:19
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This arc is just really loving vile.
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Jul 8, 2021 09:21
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Sorry i meant to do a preview post but hit post instead. commentary is now up. But yes, it's real gross, and it gets worse. YF-23 posted:I can't believe Milov killed oh wait nevermind it's an illusion because nothing bad can happen to designated good guys (which is to say Milov can't accidentally become a murderer, Jayden has to suffer for being an evil witch who sends men to hell through sex). That's the thing that gets me, reading it now. Milov is going to have the chance to apologize to Jayden for his violence, and she's going to say no no it's understandable. If it wasn't for the fact that Luna could generate perfectly realistic holograms, Jayden would be dead. For Mookie, the stupid contrivance of illusion magic is enough to make his characters blameless of their actions, , even if the intent in that moment was real. Beelzebufo fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 09:46
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Regarding Dominic and Tara, I don't get that she has the hots for him. I get that she's just sexually free and active. In Mookie-speak; she's a slut. Like it's not that Dominic is better than loving one of his students; a low bar to clear but at least something we all agree would be bad. It's that Dominic is better than being distracted/attracted to conventionally attractive women. Because he's not some dumb jock who likes big boobs. Also LOL like the illusion absolves Milov of anything. Like this is ancient poo poo people talk about WRT the Binding of Isaac and part of why Attempted Murder is a crime; and this is an example even more egregious and unambiguous than even those two things! Milov is a murderer! Not in a literal or consequential context, sure, but by any sort of reasonable moral framework that isn't absurdly solely consequentialist, Milov just killed Jayden. If you are willing and able to do something and attempt to do it and only fail because an external force stops you at the eleventh hour, you're morally responsible for having done that thing. Like this isn't hard to grasp. It's why we consider it heroic if someone runs into a burning building to pull out survivors, but either finds none or when they get the person out they're already dead or die within moments anyway. The intent and the action were all centered around risking your own life to try and help other people. Like this is extremely basic stuff.
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Jul 8, 2021 09:57
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Jul 8, 2021 10:00
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Beelzebufo posted:Milov proves himself to be a rational individual and goes on a crazy rampage. He'll apologize for this later court, but I can't help but feel that Mookie was catharticly raging along with Milov at this point. Considering this is literally the first arc he starts after a breakup it's impossible to not read this as the case.
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Jul 8, 2021 10:12
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that's a very interesting analysis. I'd never actually thought that deeply about this part before, and well, daaaaaamn
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Jul 8, 2021 11:22
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Beelzebufo posted:
I don't think mookie is responding to fan criticism here because he loves to have characters react in anger that is perfectly justified by circumstances and then apologise for it. He has a very specific idea of what it is to be a good person (in the case of anger, it must never break a calm demeanour, because angry shouting is a jock thing), and so when his designated good characters fail to meet that standard they have to apologise for the transgression.
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Jul 8, 2021 12:16
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This joke doesn't work when it's spoken! Argh! And well, now I know the full context behind the "Milov kills Jayden" strip, which I'd seen before (since Jayden comes up again when Dominc and Luna get married). And it's pretty awful!
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Jul 8, 2021 13:43
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TheHan posted:
Check out how long his torso gets in the book carrying panel, it's incredible.
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Jul 8, 2021 13:46
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Mookie's idea of catharsis is to draw DBZ poses and then murder his ex-girlfriend in effigy.
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Jul 8, 2021 16:08
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It's worse than I remembered. The misogyny stands on its own, but another somewhat prominent aspect that is lost in the shuffle of greater issues is that stupid mask. What is the point of Siegfried wearing a mask that covers his whole face (and he's wearing different clothes and isn't speaking) if everyone who he encounters "somehow knows" that it's him? I know metatextually it's for Mookie to dehumanize Siegfried for the crime of being a filthy JOCK/sexhaver but there is no useful in-story reason for this. There's no fakeout where the mask gets ripped off and it's 3 short demons standing on each others' shoulders or anything, so it's just pointless and dumb.
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Jul 8, 2021 16:20
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I know I posted this before, but by this point Mookie has been hired and fired as a burlesque emcee. The same person who wrote the above that feels so misogynistic and sex negative (also like it was written by a boy half his age)
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Jul 8, 2021 16:29
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Beelzebufo posted:
And this begs the question of why Dominic didn't just use this illusion strategy on Snowsong and Gregory instead of putting people's lives at risk. Billy Gnosis posted:I know I posted this before, but by this point Mookie has been hired and fired as a burlesque emcee. The same person who wrote the above that feels so misogynistic and sex negative (also like it was written by a boy half his age) Not true, he was still doing it as late as 2014 - if you can handle the cringe, here's the (seemingly) only known recording of Mookie-as-MC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWG2csfQ77M I have no idea if it's true, but I assume he wrote the intro as well. It feels a lot like his bad Legacy poetry. Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 17:13
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Invisible Clergy posted:It's worse than I remembered. I feel like he was trying to go for something like Silent Hill’s Pyramid Head (who was an abstract manifestation of the protagonist’s guilt), but that worked as well as it did because of just how much of an unknown quantity he is for the player; pretty much the whole game, the driving questions surrounding him are “what the hell is this thing, and what did James do to make him so enraged at him?” But here, you already know exactly who Siegfried is, and it barely takes any time for the big mystery of why he’s appearing again to be revealed, so all you have left in the comparison is the hyperviolence… and even that’s done so cartoonishly over the top that it’s almost impossible to see him as menacing.
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Jul 8, 2021 17:26
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The mask motif is so funny, how many of them is he wearing? The little chest mask is my favorite.
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Jul 8, 2021 17:37
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So I'm new to mocking DD. I have been aware for a long while that the comic is bad and roughly why it's bad - reading Beelzebufo's posts covering the original comic has been very entertaining and educational, so thanks for that! I probably won't read through all of Snout's stuff cus boy is it boring, but I have skimmed through some of the early stuff and the recent stuff. I'm sure this has been talked about before here, but wow for a comic with no dialogue there sure is a lot of loving words. Like, the idea of a deaf protagonist as a justification for a comic with no dialogue is an interesting idea! But it's obvious Mookie has no idea WHY it's an interesting idea. Like, it's interesting to have a story told fully through its art and character acting. But like a dozen strips in we have signs explaining everything that could very easily be intuited, and then of course the full page of words that is Snout's diary, just explicitly telling us what Snout is thinking. A comic without words should be the ideal of "show don't tell" but instead Mookie is just using it as an excuse to explicitly tell while almost never showing. It truly is baffling.
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Jul 8, 2021 17:48
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Yeah it's not actually a comic without dialogue because there has literally been dialogue between characters. It's obvious that what Mookie actually meant was "no speech/thought bubbles" which I guess can be an interesting limitation, but in practice he's still just using those, but they're diegetically written on paper.
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Jul 8, 2021 18:56
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Mookie is very easily distracted by new ideas or new hobbies and gets bored quickly- he thought a silent comic was interesting for a month or so, but unlike his usual new hobby or thing of the month he can't just drop this one since he used it to sell it to his patrons.
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Jul 8, 2021 19:00
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Rotten Red Rod posted:. If I cared more, I'd track down when he complained about being ousted on the Deegan website. But that feels like way too webdoggy for my tastes. But good? to know that maybe he grew up a bit I'm sure as hell not watching that video but I'm happy? it exists. Maybe.
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Jul 8, 2021 19:02
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God, the Jayden/Milov thing bothers me so much, though I want to say that knowing the full context makes it worse, not better. Like, I get that cheating is bad, and that Jayden did actually cheat on Milov, but he doesn't, not even even for a second, consider that it might be Hell/demons/infernomancy loving with him, that the vision could be wrong, or that there could be information he doesn't have - he leaps directly to brutally murdering her. A dude that desperate to murder women was probably not a great guy in the first place. It 100% reminds me of those dudes who are like, 'So if women are our equals, we're allowed to beat the poo poo out of them, right? I can beat women, right? If you're my equal I get to loving kick the poo poo out of you, don't I?'
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Jul 8, 2021 19:13
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It gets race sciencey soon, too.
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Jul 8, 2021 19:43
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Billy Gnosis posted:If I cared more, I'd track down when he complained about being ousted on the Deegan website. But that feels like way too webdoggy for my tastes. Maybe this is a different group that he was with later? That he also was ousted from? Dunno, it's possible.
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Jul 8, 2021 19:59
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this arc gets another mark against it for advancing the b-plot surrounding nimmel, the worst character
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Jul 8, 2021 20:14
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we all know it's creepy to psychoanalyze someone based on their amateur art, but man if this poo poo isn't dripping with some raw id
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Jul 8, 2021 20:22
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I have this terrible feeling that no one is going to be particularly phazed or upset with him that he just tried to murder his girlfriend, are they?
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Jul 8, 2021 20:29
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Beelzebufo posted:Sorry i meant to do a preview post but hit post instead. commentary is now up. Oh.  I'm just not used to mainlining DD, it is amazing how much easier it is to read with something to break up the wall of Deegan-ness. Especially when it gets real bad like this. I don't know how it could really get much worse, but it's Mookie so I guess I'll see.
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Jul 8, 2021 20:29
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Love that it’s jaydens fault that the affair happened and that Siegfried is blameless I guess?? Her wicked lust tempted him and sent him to hell, he has no agency whatsoever in that regard it seems
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Jul 8, 2021 20:45
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Fister Roboto posted:Yeah it's not actually a comic without dialogue because there has literally been dialogue between characters. It's obvious that what Mookie actually meant was "no speech/thought bubbles" which I guess can be an interesting limitation, but in practice he's still just using those, but they're diegetically written on paper. It's funny cus Mookie really just can't NOT put text in. Even early on, when you'd think he'd be at maximum effort for this project, he just throws in tons of unnecessary text. We don't need a sign saying "Snout's house" in front of his house - we can figure out he lives there from context clues! We don't need the Ink Witch writing out HELP ME, FIND THE SHIP - she could have just drawn the picture and Snout could have figured out "hey this is the thing I saw earlier, I should try and find it." I would just think that he would have put forth more effort to really sell the idea of it being silent before eventually giving up and going for not-speech-bubbles, but nah he just gave up right off the bat.
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Jul 8, 2021 20:46
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GlyphGryph posted:I have this terrible feeling that no one is going to be particularly phazed or upset with him that he just tried to murder his girlfriend, are they? from what i remember they tut tut him, but the narrative in general treats cheating on someone and attempted murder as equally immoral acts, while putting way more emphasis on the cheating part. not that that's surprising given in dominic deegan, being a monogamy disrespecter is generally considered worse than the cool crime of mass murder. see also: the maltak library talking about jacob deegan like he's the coolest and smartest guy because he got a quick redemption arc so being a serial killer isn't even worth being a historical footnote anymore
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Jul 8, 2021 20:47
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Dominic's logic for not telling Sigfried's closest friends that he's suffering in hell is so busted. What could anyone do? We don't know! You never explained how the afterlife works and we never saw Dominic even pretend to try and research a way to redeem Sigfried's soul. And what the gently caress is up with Luna that her first idea to calm Milov down was to have him kill an illusion of Jayden? The Deegans are so consistently awful people that it makes it especially obvious how the universe bends over backwards to make them look righteous. What's really fun about this re-read is forcing yourself to actually read an entire page instead of skipping half the dialogue in embarrassment.
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Jul 8, 2021 20:50
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TheHan posted:Dominic's logic for not telling Sigfried's closest friends that he's suffering in hell is so busted. What could anyone do? We don't know! You never explained how the afterlife works and we never saw Dominic even pretend to try and research a way to redeem Sigfried's soul. And what the gently caress is up with Luna that her first idea to calm Milov down was to have him kill an illusion of Jayden? The Deegans are so consistently awful people that it makes it especially obvious how the universe bends over backwards to make them look righteous. All he had to do is have Dominic try to help him, have Sieg go "Look, there's no way out, I've seen it from this side and I know this. Don't tell anyone. I don't want their pity." That could even be made sorta ambiguous, like maybe he isn't a cartoon and still cares about the people he left behind and doesn't want them to hurt on his behalf. While still, at face value, reading like a selfish thing to say! the tiniest bit of nuance! but nah
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Jul 8, 2021 22:30
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DamnitGannet posted:Love that it’s jaydens fault that the affair happened and that Siegfried is blameless I guess?? Her wicked lust tempted him and sent him to hell, he has no agency whatsoever in that regard it seems Beelzebufo said that this isn't true, that Siegfried's soul was damned from the start (which would be a continuation of the character assassination of him when Mookie got upset that people liked Siggy), so it's just Jayden feeling incredibly guilty for cheating. Which, honestly, wouldn't actually be that bad in a vacuum. Guilt can really mess up people and cause them to blame themselves even in a situation where they aren't at fault, like how many times have you heard someone say "If only I had done this" when a loved one dies, they feel they're responsible for the person's death even if they aren't actually responsible. The problem is that Jayden, if not based on the woman Mookie was dating, seems to at least be serving as a representative of her in this arc, so it comes off feeling kind of gross, as if Mookie was like "This is how she should have acted for what she did!"
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Jul 8, 2021 22:38
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