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Bug Squash posted:You get your "you better have learned the mechanics" boss only a couple of hours into SMT4, and to be honest Minotaur is pretty good at his job. You might need to back track a little bit and collect demons with the right buffs and heals, but that only adds about half an hour to the playtime.
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Jul 8, 2021 10:59
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Jul 8, 2021 11:28
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Matador is not hard. Ame no uzumi, nozuchi, and nekomata counter him easily.
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Jul 8, 2021 12:13
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Also for Matador you don't have Compendium access yet so making whatever demon you need might take a while.
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Jul 8, 2021 12:40
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Matador jumps you and the trick to him is not immediately obvious (and is slightly? unintuitive.) You should get Fog Breath no matter what though because it's a ridiculously broken skill.
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Jul 8, 2021 12:41
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Brandfarlig posted:I guess I'm just surprised the game is that hateful to the player for how many fans the game seems to have. games that hate the player are the best games op
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Jul 8, 2021 12:43
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I threw two pokeballs at diglett and he broke out of both of them. I guess I’m just surprised how hatefull the game is towards the player for how many fans it seems to have.
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Jul 8, 2021 13:01
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Snake Maze posted:I threw two pokeballs at diglett and he broke out of both of them. I guess I’m just surprised how hatefull the game is towards the player for how many fans it seems to have. Except you get one chance per battle and you fail more often than not. Wasting my time with a low success rate just makes the game worse, not harder. It just makes me not want to recruit which isn't really an option.
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Jul 8, 2021 13:36
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yeah it owns
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Jul 8, 2021 13:42
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The trouble with demon conversation is that it's not properly explained to the player. It's fine for SMT veterans, but for anyone who's coming in for the first time it a lot of vagueness of it is just needlessly obtuse.
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Jul 8, 2021 13:59
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Negotiation in Nocturne is entirely bullshit (the questions don't matter, the RNG decides beforehand whether or not you answer right) and there's nothing the player can do that makes it not bullshit, P5 has the only good negotiation system.
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Jul 8, 2021 14:07
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nocturnes negotiation ftw
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Jul 8, 2021 14:14
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When you talk to humans you never know the correct thing to say to get the result you want, either.
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Jul 8, 2021 14:15
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Light Gun Man posted:When you talk to humans you never know the correct thing to say to get the result you want, either. It’s also based entirely on RNG as well
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Jul 8, 2021 14:31
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Funky Valentine posted:Negotiation in Nocturne is entirely bullshit (the questions don't matter, the RNG decides beforehand whether or not you answer right) and there's nothing the player can do that makes it not bullshit, P5 has the only good negotiation system. I didn't want to come into the smt thread talking about how much better persona is but 4 and 5 are infinitely better in that aspect. Hopefully smt v has a better system than just making you fail more than half the time.
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Jul 8, 2021 14:36
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Brandfarlig posted:I didn't want to come into the smt thread talking about how much better persona is but 4 and 5 are infinitely better in that aspect. Hopefully smt v has a better system than just making you fail more than half the time. Nah don't worry its not you, its just whenever anyone criticizes Nocturne in any way the SMT fanbase isn't generally very good at taking it.
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Jul 8, 2021 14:40
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The real kick in the balls with Nocturne's system is that the ones you do manage to catch don't even have the decency to give back the Macca and/or healing stuff.
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Jul 8, 2021 14:49
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Brandfarlig posted:I didn't want to come into the smt thread talking about how much better persona is but 4 and 5 are infinitely better in that aspect. Hopefully smt v has a better system than just making you fail more than half the time. i hope it makes you fail 66% of the time
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Jul 8, 2021 15:07
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We keep having the negotiation is bad / negotiation is good discussion and somehow it mostly also doesn't end how we wanted it to, really makes ya thonk Give me a life stone.
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Jul 8, 2021 15:13
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Light Gun Man posted:We keep having the negotiation is bad / negotiation is good discussion and somehow it mostly also doesn't end how we wanted it to, really makes ya thonk I mean the discussion doesn’t seem to be is the concept bad but that it’s not well implemented. Which is a different argument
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Jul 8, 2021 15:15
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At bare minimum players shouldn't have go through a negotiation the whole way only for the demon to go "I have to go".
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Jul 8, 2021 15:58
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why not
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Jul 8, 2021 16:01
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Golden Goat posted:At bare minimum players shouldn't have go through a negotiation the whole way only for the demon to go "I have to go". Its pretty funny at least
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Jul 8, 2021 16:03
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hatty posted:Its pretty funny at least Like first time and then any time after it's just wasting your time while you go hunt for that same demon again to finish the negotiation. There should be more stuff like status effects helping negotiation rates or something.
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Jul 8, 2021 16:06
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there are skills that help
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Jul 8, 2021 16:08
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They should add more to help with the Q&A section In apocalypse the scout skills that help primarily either add gifts or macca on recruting or reduce the demon's demands in the barter part of recruiting. The only other really good one is scout+ that lets the demon bring another demon with them which is a huge help. Which games had some demons that let you smooth over mistakes? E: I'm forgetting I have Demon Charmer to "increase chances of friendly conversation". Golden Goat fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 16:14
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Uh, I guess it's possible to kill Baal Avatar before she can summon the 2 helper demons. Certainly never knew that before
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Jul 8, 2021 16:18
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Golden Goat posted:Which games had some demons that let you smooth over mistakes? Nocturne has a bunch of skills but they are usually bad anyways. I think I have only had those actually lead to a successful negotiation literally once. Money is easy to come by in Nocturne though so demon negotiation is kind of pointless after Matador.
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Jul 8, 2021 16:22
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I think the great shame is that talking to the demons could be used to add a lot more character to them, but instead it's just so bland and interchangeable between them.
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Jul 8, 2021 16:24
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Funky Valentine posted:Negotiation in Nocturne is entirely bullshit (the questions don't matter, the RNG decides beforehand whether or not you answer right) and there's nothing the player can do that makes it not bullshit, P5 has the only good negotiation system. I wouldn't say 'only good system', because while it definitely has the BEST system there's still some decent ones. I remember that Strange Journey had a really smart approach to negotiation where the amount of 'right answers' to negotiation questions changed based on your alignments relative to the demon's. So if you're Law you're going to have a much easier time recruiting Law demons (which is good because SJ's team-up attacks rewarded like-aligned demons), while it also doesn't take away your ability to recruit Chaos demons if needed. There was also actual logic beyond RNG to which choices were right, but I don't remember exactly what. Also SJ's questions were BEFORE the item handover stage, so if you answered wrong you wouldn't already be out some items. Basically, the pieces of the negotiation system are fine, Nocturne just implemented every single piece wrong.
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Jul 8, 2021 16:45
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I remember reading at some point that people were convinced Nocturne's conversation system was bugged instead of trained wrong, as a joke
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Jul 8, 2021 17:13
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I did not have any issue with Matador or Hell Biker. Daisoujou wiped my party a couple of times as soon as he started phase 2 thoughFunky Valentine posted:Negotiation in Nocturne is entirely bullshit (the questions don't matter, the RNG decides beforehand whether or not you answer right) and there's nothing the player can do that makes it not bullshit, P5 has the only good negotiation system. wait what
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Jul 8, 2021 17:24
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The only fiends that gave me serious trouble were Matador and Mother Harlot
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Jul 8, 2021 17:25
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Daishoujou I beat first try because he's got no way to clear buffs or debuffs but Hell Biker I got walled on for like six attempts until he decided not to clear my defense buffs one run
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Jul 8, 2021 17:27
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Yeah, P5 has a great negotiation system.
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Jul 8, 2021 17:27
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SMT4's system is good once you realize that you can just refuse, refuse, end conversation, and a lot of the time they just join you anyway.
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Jul 8, 2021 17:37
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Jul 8, 2021 17:48
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Negotiation would be better if there were less shared dialogue between demons and they got more individuality about it, agreed. It is important, however, that they remain capricious dicks who will sometimes take your lifestone and then tell you to gently caress off.
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Jul 8, 2021 17:48
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Bug Squash posted:You get your "you better have learned the mechanics" boss only a couple of hours into SMT4, and to be honest Minotaur is pretty good at his job. You might need to back track a little bit and collect demons with the right buffs and heals, but that only adds about half an hour to the playtime. If you have access to fog breath by the matador fight you're extremely overleveled. Sukukaja and/or sukunda are the big things you want in that fight, along with rakukaja to survive the focus andalucia if it comes to that, all of which is fairly accessible at the level range for Matador
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Jul 8, 2021 18:23
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Just having wind resistance and wind resistant demons plus media will also basically you get there as well. Once he does his big physical attacks, you just need to go all in to finish him.
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Jul 8, 2021 18:27
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