[Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

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Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

comedyblissoption posted:

the dictatorships failed in the sense they were no longer nominal dictatorships, but they are a success by the metrics of class war

Victories of the bourgeois are not victories for Fascism, which defines victory in terms of a revolutionary transformation of the bourgeois state into eternal fascism. Most reactionary latin american governments don't even count as fascist, even if they were dictatorships of one form or another.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 19:55

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# ? May 23, 2024 11:35

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

it's no coincidence that the liberal and socdem endorsed candidate hindenberg after winning the presidential election essentially outlawed the rising communist party shortly before hitler's ascent to dictator

fascism and threat to bougies are intrinsically linked and any analysis omitting this is hopelessly liberal

# ? Jul 10, 2021 19:58

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I would describe new deal America as fascist as well.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 19:58

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Victories of the bourgeois are not victories for Fascism, which defines victory in terms of a revolutionary transformation of the bourgeois state into eternal fascism. Most reactionary latin american governments don't even count as fascist, even if they were dictatorships of one form or another.

we agree except that my definition of fascism is more expansive to include the bougies as a class dispensing with liberal parliamentary farces to enforce their control

# ? Jul 10, 2021 19:59

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

comedyblissoption posted:

we agree except that my definition of fascism is more expansive to include the bougies as a class dispensing with liberal parliamentary farces to enforce their control

yeah your definition of fascism sucks, I agree

# ? Jul 10, 2021 20:00

Falstaff: Apr 27, 2008; I have a kind of alacrity in sinking.

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Victories of the bourgeois are not victories for Fascism, which defines victory in terms of a revolutionary transformation of the bourgeois state into eternal fascism. Most reactionary latin american governments don't even count as fascist, even if they were dictatorships of one form or another.

Would you consider Franco a fascist? This isn't intended as a gotcha, I'm genuinely curious because I know it's a point of debate among academics.

eta: to be clear, I'm asking about your opinion of Franco's Spain, not Franco the dude himself.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 20:00

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

we could try to tie the idea of fascism rigidly to world war 2 ideologies as espoused by those claiming proudly they are fascists, but the fascist movement as far as im concerned was really about capitalists being uncomfortable with liberalism being able to hold the system together for them and so it was discarded

european bougies were fearful of the specter of 1917, had to keep stamping out socialist movements, and they got fed up and threw away the mask for "listen here you little shits"

the heirs of mercedes benz, which had literal execution chambers in their nazi factories to enforce worker obedience, are today among the richest people on the planet

of course there's an analogy with cuba and socialist movements in latin america and the forces of reaction installing dictatorships

# ? Jul 10, 2021 20:05

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Falstaff posted:

Would you consider Franco a fascist? This isn't intended as a gotcha, I'm genuinely curious because I know it's a point of debate among academics.

eta: to be clear, I'm asking about your opinion of Franco's Spain, not Franco the dude himself.

Yeah I would say Franco's Spain was fascist even if it didn't fit every definition of it to a T, and even if the FET government was much less radical about it than the original Falangists. The Francoists could not overcome the material realities they inherited from the civil war, the ongoing insurgency and agitation against their government, or how those conditions prevented Spain from being able to join the Axis. Franco himself definitely wanted to join the Axis crusade against Bolshevism, but couldn't because of Spain's dependence on British food imports - and could only send "volunteers."

I don't think the FET deference to the Catholic church is as disqualifying as some suppose. The observance of Catholicism is just another aspect of the essential national character of Spain. You could even call it "fascism with Spanish characteristics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHBSev-6hVc&t=1036s

# ? Jul 10, 2021 20:13

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

The Voice of Labor posted:

the outsider/foreign/undesirable thing is also problematic. the identity of the outsider is purely one of opportunism and convenience. the proudboys will gladly take on token minorities because it "proves they aren't racist". modern fascism has no problem with gays because the machismo ideology unsurprisingly is also deeply homoerotic. they have no problem with south/central american immigrants of legal status because they a:prove the system works, b: tend towards conservative beliefs and c: work as a wedge against others immigrating over . I mean, if you want say the outsider is always organized labor, maybe

If modern fascism does incorporate racism, it will probably focus on Asian populations because the boogeyman appears to be China right now.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 20:19

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

comedyblissoption posted:

we could try to tie the idea of fascism rigidly to world war 2 ideologies as espoused by those claiming proudly they are fascists, but the fascist movement as far as im concerned was really about capitalists being uncomfortable with liberalism being able to hold the system together for them and so it was discarded

european bougies were fearful of the specter of 1917, had to keep stamping out socialist movements, and they got fed up and threw away the mask for "listen here you little shits"

the heirs of mercedes benz, which had literal execution chambers in their nazi factories to enforce worker obedience, are today among the richest people on the planet

of course there's an analogy with cuba and socialist movements in latin america and the forces of reaction installing dictatorships

It's unscientific to redefine fascism as being merely any kind of vulgar bourgeois dictatorship, which is part of how it devolved into being something that baby leftists use to describe anything they don't like. We should allow fascism to be defined in the terms of its own ideology, and view it as a genuine third position of 20th century politics. The fact that this third position plays into the hands of bourgeois interests only proves its conceptual and ideological failure, it doesn't mean that it was some kind of bourgeois conspiracy. The intellectual roots of fascism reach down to "socialism" and syndicalism as much as it does anything else.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 20:25

Elephant Ambush: Nov 13, 2012; ...We sholde spenden more time together. What sayest thou?; Nap Ghost

The Voice of Labor posted:

this downplays the emergent fasc. writing them off as proto/crypto whatever ignores the fact that the only difference between a fascist proper and a cryptofascist is that the cypto hasn't yet had two of his fasc friends say "hey, you know, tonight we're going to burn down that apartment building on the other side of town and maybe stomp on a homeless person or two on the way back. it's gonna be a blast, you coming?"

there's no innocent, clownyness there, they may just be edgy libs but they're also an opportunistic death squad that are missing only their activation codes and marching orders. in 'merica they're already armed.

the outsider/foreign/undesirable thing is also problematic. the identity of the outsider is purely one of opportunism and convenience. the proudboys will gladly take on token minorities because it "proves they aren't racist". modern fascism has no problem with gays because the machismo ideology unsurprisingly is also deeply homoerotic. they have no problem with south/central american immigrants of legal status because they a:prove the system works, b: tend towards conservative beliefs and c: work as a wedge against others immigrating over . I mean, if you want say the outsider is always organized labor, maybe

Lurker here.

Thanks for this post because after reading the last few pages of fascism talk I didn't see much about racism, which in my obviously ignorant head has always been a core concept of fascism. I guess that's because most people don't use the word "fascism" correctly?

# ? Jul 10, 2021 20:54

The Voice of Labor: Apr 8, 2020

Cpt_Obvious posted:

If modern fascism does incorporate racism, it will probably focus on Asian populations because the boogeyman appears to be China right now.

there's no objectivity to the hate though. if chinese end up being the boogeyman, tawainese will be regarded as brave freedom fighters holding back international communism

# ? Jul 10, 2021 20:57

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

It's unscientific to redefine fascism as being merely any kind of vulgar bourgeois dictatorship, which is part of how it devolved into being something that baby leftists use to describe anything they don't like. We should allow fascism to be defined in the terms of its own ideology, and view it as a genuine third position of 20th century politics. The fact that this third position plays into the hands of bourgeois interests only proves its conceptual and ideological failure, it doesn't mean that it was some kind of bourgeois conspiracy. The intellectual roots of fascism reach down to "socialism" and syndicalism as much as it does anything else.

all valid points but it's really funny to call obama and npr fascists

# ? Jul 10, 2021 21:38

emTme3: Nov 7, 2012; by Hand Knit

The Voice of Labor posted:

this downplays the emergent fasc. writing them off as proto/crypto whatever ignores the fact that the only difference between a fascist proper and a cryptofascist is that the cypto hasn't yet had two of his fasc friends say "hey, you know, tonight we're going to burn down that apartment building on the other side of town and maybe stomp on a homeless person or two on the way back. it's gonna be a blast, you coming?"

there's no innocent, clownyness there, they may just be edgy libs but they're also an opportunistic death squad that are missing only their activation codes and marching orders. in 'merica they're already armed.

you're right, but my point was they don't get their activation codes and marching orders unless they have an organized red tide to mobilize against. they're clowns because we are, at the current historical juncture, also clowns. if we stop being clowns, they get their marching orders. randomly stomping on the houseless makes them bullies and thugs, but it doesn't make them a seriously organized political force.

there's a whole spectrum of fascist thought that's just kind of inert before it gets politicized. Like, there's a ton of people who relate to their ethnic heritage in the same univocal, essentialist way that fascists do, but they don't go out of their way to act on it or build a political programme out of it. are they fascists? they could be, if the conditions pushed them in that direction. they could also be peacefully convinced that relating to a universalist horizon of human emancipation is a better way to live - and then when the conditions come acalling they'd activate towards us.

quote:

the outsider/foreign/undesirable thing is also problematic. the identity of the outsider is purely one of opportunism and convenience. the proudboys will gladly take on token minorities because it "proves they aren't racist". modern fascism has no problem with gays because the machismo ideology unsurprisingly is also deeply homoerotic. they have no problem with south/central american immigrants of legal status because they a:prove the system works, b: tend towards conservative beliefs and c: work as a wedge against others immigrating over . I mean, if you want say the outsider is always organized labor, maybe

the outsider is The Jew, 9 times out of 10. you're right, it's totally opportunistic, but there are structural reasons for social antagonism to appear primarily The Figure Of The Jew to fascists.

admitting contradictions within the social body is tantamount to admitting the possibility of contradictions within the presumed natural whole of their racial identity. to do this would be for the basis of their perspective and analysis to fall apart. it can't be structural antagonisms because all white people share the same harmonious interests and identity, so then it has to be these external forces, and the top of that list is gonna be The Jew. their will be other poo poo too, but it has to be stuff that is a priori excluded from their own holistic identity, and it can't be social antagonisms, only static transhistorical essences.

Then they go and fight the proactive revolutionary orgs and interpret it as fighting a vast jewy conspiracy against whiteness or whatever.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 22:06

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

It's unscientific to redefine fascism as being merely any kind of vulgar bourgeois dictatorship, which is part of how it devolved into being something that baby leftists use to describe anything they don't like. We should allow fascism to be defined in the terms of its own ideology, and view it as a genuine third position of 20th century politics. The fact that this third position plays into the hands of bourgeois interests only proves its conceptual and ideological failure, it doesn't mean that it was some kind of bourgeois conspiracy. The intellectual roots of fascism reach down to "socialism" and syndicalism as much as it does anything else.

that�s a good point . would you include avowed white supremacists as avowed fascists in America ?

# ? Jul 10, 2021 22:08

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Elephant Ambush posted:

Lurker here.

Thanks for this post because after reading the last few pages of fascism talk I didn't see much about racism, which in my obviously ignorant head has always been a core concept of fascism. I guess that's because most people don't use the word "fascism" correctly?

The race question depends on the fascism, and they're not all using "race" in the same way to describe the same things. Like, the Falange in Spain believed in "races" but it was an unscientific view of races being like a culture. Spaniards intermixing with other races was good because it spread around the national in-group in a literal ethnic sense. The Nazis viewed race "scientifically," with a rigidly ordered tier of races according to their supposed relation to Aryanism. To Nazis race mixing was bad, because it diluted the superior essence of Aryanism. For Italian fascists race was a civilizational issue; with each race defined by its barbarity contrary to Italian supremacy. Italians had the least consistent view on race, with Mussolini waffling back and forth over the years between saying race was real and race was fake, with many Italian fascists ignoring him altogether. In Italy it wasn't really a settled question, but generally the contrast between Italians and barbarian races remained consistent.

If we look at the question broadly, "race" is used by fascists to describe the competition between cultures. It's because of this competition that fascists are keenly aware of the "dysgenic" problem of declining birthrates and what have you. The issue of how race is decided is flexible. At the scientific end of things, race is an essential biological quality and is immutable. At the cultural end of things race is a mutable quality which can be shaped by the national will. There's also a third "spiritual" form of racism put forward by esotericists like Evola. But the New Age tradition of spiritual Aryanism was useless as an ordering principle of society, so the vast majority of fascists just ignored him.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 22:17

emTme3: Nov 7, 2012; by Hand Knit

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

It's unscientific to redefine fascism as being merely any kind of vulgar bourgeois dictatorship, which is part of how it devolved into being something that baby leftists use to describe anything they don't like. We should allow fascism to be defined in the terms of its own ideology, and view it as a genuine third position of 20th century politics. The fact that this third position plays into the hands of bourgeois interests only proves its conceptual and ideological failure, it doesn't mean that it was some kind of bourgeois conspiracy. The intellectual roots of fascism reach down to "socialism" and syndicalism as much as it does anything else.

ya I'm definitely arguing that there's a qualitative distinction to be made between most bourgeois governments and fascism proper. it doesn't have to be a boog conspiracy either and I don't think it ever was - fascism is just the hammer that's there when the hammer is reached for.

I'm also arguing that there is a qualitative distinction between modes of analysis that treat their concepts as atomized univocal essences, and modes of analysis that attempt to grapple with interdependent ensembles of conceptual relations that can include relations internal to the concepts themselves. the former will inevitably lean right, and the latter leads towards historical materialism.

There's plenty of leftist analysis that's just as essentialist and univocal as fascist analysis is, but even the smartest fascists are still self-consciously battling histmat's diagnoses of antagonisms internal to the body socius. these splits cut across the cultural/racial/national identities reified by fascists and used in their analysis, which is why histmat is so traumatizing and disturbing.

emTme3 has issued a correction as of 22:26 on Jul 10, 2021

# ? Jul 10, 2021 22:22

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

euphronius posted:

that�s a good point . would you include avowed white supremacists as avowed fascists in America ?

White supremacy in America is colored (lol) by its relationship to Americanism. It can never be much more than an in-group within liberalism, where whites simply get to be at the top of the social ladder as they used to be in the 19th century. That's a pre-fascist conception of the world, and their ideology is perfectly in line with the white liberation tradition in American politics. One where freedom is a privilege reserved exclusively for whites.

If you ask a fascist what they think about "freedom," then they'll spit on the ground and start talking about how freedom is a liberal concept and individuals must surrender themselves to the national will.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 22:22

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

White supremacy in America is colored (lol) by its relationship to Americanism. It can never be much more than an in-group within liberalism, where whites simply get to be at the top of the social ladder as they used to be in the 19th century. That's a pre-fascist conception of the world, and their ideology is perfectly in line with the white liberation tradition in American politics. One where freedom is a privilege reserved exclusively for whites.

If you ask a fascist what they think about "freedom," then they'll spit on the ground and start talking about how freedom is a liberal concept and individuals must surrender themselves to the national will.

that makes sense and neatly cuts out the new deal which was racist but not fascist on that understanding

# ? Jul 10, 2021 22:26

The Voice of Labor: Apr 8, 2020

splifyphus posted:

you're right, but my point was they don't get their activation codes and marching orders unless they have an organized red tide to mobilize against.

the fascism is purely reactionary/only exists as opposition to communism criteria doesn't fly for me.

the united states has never produced, and is possibly incapable of producing, its own communist party.

fascism only exists to combat communism.

ergo 'merica is not and has never been fascist

the conclusion is contradictory, the united states of america is one of the most fascist nations in the world by any metric, protection of capital, oppression of labor, ethnic cleansing, we have it all

# ? Jul 10, 2021 22:35

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

The Voice of Labor posted:

the conclusion is contradictory, the united states of america is one of the most fascist nations in the world by any metric, protection of capital, oppression of labor, ethnic cleansing, we have it all

None of those are essentially fascist. Really, everybody has done it. If we follow your logic then all capitalist states are fascist.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 22:37

The Voice of Labor: Apr 8, 2020

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

If you ask a fascist what they think about "freedom," then they'll spit on the ground and start talking about how freedom is a liberal concept and individuals must surrender themselves to the national will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hFMSy-nLL0

# ? Jul 10, 2021 22:43

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

The Voice of Labor posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hFMSy-nLL0

That's a lot of freedom.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 22:45

The Voice of Labor: Apr 8, 2020

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

None of those are essentially fascist. Really, everybody has done it. If we follow your logic then all capitalist states are fascist.

if you want to admit of degrees of or tendencies in or whatever for fascism, and if you accept the thesis that capitalism is the condition that allows for fascism then all capitalist states are fascist and the more unbridled their capitalism, the more fascist they are. if there's some qualitative shift that occurs after an accumulation of x amount of fascism that labels a state as fascist the united states has hit that water mark

# ? Jul 10, 2021 23:03

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I fee mike legit fascists would not be anti vaccine and anti mask

maybe I�m wrong. just thinking about it

# ? Jul 10, 2021 23:13

The Voice of Labor: Apr 8, 2020

antivax antimask is prodeath

# ? Jul 10, 2021 23:20

Zmej: Nov 6, 2005

https://twitter.com/isaiah_bb/status/1413905341813862402?s=20

# ? Jul 10, 2021 23:29

namesake: Jun 19, 2006; "When I was a girl, around 12 or 13, I had a fantasy that I'd grow up to marry Captain Scarlet, but he'd be busy fighting the Mysterons so I'd cuckold him with the sexiest people I could think of - Nigel Mansell, Pat Sharp and Mr. Blobby."

The Voice of Labor posted:

if you want to admit of degrees of or tendencies in or whatever for fascism, and if you accept the thesis that capitalism is the condition that allows for fascism then all capitalist states are fascist and the more unbridled their capitalism, the more fascist they are. if there's some qualitative shift that occurs after an accumulation of x amount of fascism that labels a state as fascist the united states has hit that water mark

But that's why it's not a matter of degrees. Liberalism completely permits racism, segregation, banning of worker organisation, electoral disenfranchisement, etc. For centuries before fascism existed they were the norm of liberalism. Fascism is a state of reaction to the failures of liberalism but isn't a liberal philosophy - it's not just a bad form of liberalism, it's a bad form of illiberalism. Many elements of liberalism can be transposed into fascist society but it's a complete transformation of the meaning of those elements, not just a qualitative shift.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 23:30

Elephant Ambush: Nov 13, 2012; ...We sholde spenden more time together. What sayest thou?; Nap Ghost

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The race question depends on the fascism, and they're not all using "race" in the same way to describe the same things. Like, the Falange in Spain believed in "races" but it was an unscientific view of races being like a culture. Spaniards intermixing with other races was good because it spread around the national in-group in a literal ethnic sense. The Nazis viewed race "scientifically," with a rigidly ordered tier of races according to their supposed relation to Aryanism. To Nazis race mixing was bad, because it diluted the superior essence of Aryanism. For Italian fascists race was a civilizational issue; with each race defined by its barbarity contrary to Italian supremacy. Italians had the least consistent view on race, with Mussolini waffling back and forth over the years between saying race was real and race was fake, with many Italian fascists ignoring him altogether. In Italy it wasn't really a settled question, but generally the contrast between Italians and barbarian races remained consistent.

If we look at the question broadly, "race" is used by fascists to describe the competition between cultures. It's because of this competition that fascists are keenly aware of the "dysgenic" problem of declining birthrates and what have you. The issue of how race is decided is flexible. At the scientific end of things, race is an essential biological quality and is immutable. At the cultural end of things race is a mutable quality which can be shaped by the national will. There's also a third "spiritual" form of racism put forward by esotericists like Evola. But the New Age tradition of spiritual Aryanism was useless as an ordering principle of society, so the vast majority of fascists just ignored him.

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. :tipshat:

# ? Jul 10, 2021 23:33

The Voice of Labor: Apr 8, 2020

namesake posted:

Fascism is a state of reaction to the failures of liberalism but isn't a liberal philosophy - it's not just a bad form of liberalism, it's a bad form of illiberalism. Many elements of liberalism can be transposed into fascist society but it's a complete transformation of the meaning of those elements, not just a qualitative shift.

yet we have the problem that for historical analysis or reasoning we're left with actual material things to look at, violence, treatment of labor, movement of wealth, things that have observable nonsubjective effects. so if the essence of fascism is some shift in attitude among the citizenship that removes any kind of evidence for it that can be pointed at and makes room for no true fascman fallacies where the evidence is purely speculation and conjecture. if it walks like a fasc and quacks like a fasc it's a fasc. if fascism has to be one of those words that's retroactively applied after it's meaning has been established, so be it.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 23:44

namesake: Jun 19, 2006; "When I was a girl, around 12 or 13, I had a fantasy that I'd grow up to marry Captain Scarlet, but he'd be busy fighting the Mysterons so I'd cuckold him with the sexiest people I could think of - Nigel Mansell, Pat Sharp and Mr. Blobby."

The Voice of Labor posted:

yet we have the problem that for historical analysis or reasoning we're left with actual material things to look at, violence, treatment of labor, movement of wealth, things that have observable nonsubjective effects. so if the essence of fascism is some shift in attitude among the citizenship that removes any kind of evidence for it that can be pointed at and makes room for no true fascman fallacies where the evidence is purely speculation and conjecture. if it walks like a fasc and quacks like a fasc it's a fasc. if fascism has to be one of those words that's retroactively applied after it's meaning has been established, so be it.

That's not true. Value in a capitalist system has no inherent material qualities at all and yet is the central component of capitalism as it pulls all the social and material forces around it. Fascism doesn't have, or at least hasn't been theorised yet, such a concept to anchor analysis around but that's the problem with the defining of fascism up to this point.

# ? Jul 10, 2021 23:50

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Fascism doesn't because it isn't independent of capitalism, it just isn't a liberal version of capitalism. In addition, fascism is more than simply a "pile of bad things", you can have a regime that is nationalist with state racism and militarism but it doesn't necessarily mean it is fascist. Fascism is the evolution of the bourgeoise-liberal state into a politically centralized structure that is designed to protect and further the interests of capitalists.This regime is at its core nationalist because it is built on the top of a nation-state.

As for the United States, I would say there are certain "fascistic qualities" about it but at the same time it has still retained its historical character as a relatively decentralized state since it is was built on top of the model of an oligarchical republic. It isn't that the US couldn't be fascist but it would have to finally give up the ghost on the republic to move on toward a principate.

I would say Franco state was fascist but that there were certain fundamental limitations of how far Spain could realistically push itself.

Ardennes has issued a correction as of 00:18 on Jul 11, 2021

# ? Jul 11, 2021 00:15

Yossarian-22: Oct 26, 2014

The Voice of Labor posted:

the fascism is purely reactionary/only exists as opposition to communism criteria doesn't fly for me.

the united states has never produced, and is possibly incapable of producing, its own communist party.

fascism only exists to combat communism.

ergo 'merica is not and has never been fascist

the conclusion is contradictory, the united states of america is one of the most fascist nations in the world by any metric, protection of capital, oppression of labor, ethnic cleansing, we have it all

I feel like fascism is a matter of form more than content. It is the most grotesque out in the open form of capitalism and all its ills. Liberal democracy is capitalism with its best possible facade, and fascism is when the capitalist state rips the mask off.

# ? Jul 11, 2021 00:21

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Zmej posted:

https://twitter.com/isaiah_bb/status/1413905341813862402?s=20

posting my fave camille paglia meltdown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFgYcVbAaNs

# ? Jul 11, 2021 00:23

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Yossarian-22 posted:

I feel like fascism is a matter of form more than content. It is the most grotesque out in the open form of capitalism and all its ills. Liberal democracy is capitalism with its best possible facade, and fascism is when the capitalist state rips the mask off.

Also, it isn't simply communism itself that forces a liberal state to evolve, it simply needs to be under enough internal pressure that the "mask being taken off" seems like an appealing alternative. (A liberal state under external pressure may move to total war but usually the state structure itself doesn't evolve too much.)

Btw, I don't have a problem with someone saying something is "fash/fascistic/fascist" in terms of an every day descriptor, that is just language evolution.

Ardennes has issued a correction as of 00:52 on Jul 11, 2021

# ? Jul 11, 2021 00:43

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

Ardennes posted:

Btw, I don't have a problem with someone saying something is "fash/fascistic/fascist" in terms of an every day descriptor, that is just language evolution.

yeah this is important

# ? Jul 11, 2021 01:42

emTme3: Nov 7, 2012; by Hand Knit

The Voice of Labor posted:

yet we have the problem that for historical analysis or reasoning we're left with actual material things to look at, violence, treatment of labor, movement of wealth, things that have observable nonsubjective effects. so if the essence of fascism is some shift in attitude among the citizenship that removes any kind of evidence for it that can be pointed at and makes room for no true fascman fallacies where the evidence is purely speculation and conjecture. if it walks like a fasc and quacks like a fasc it's a fasc. if fascism has to be one of those words that's retroactively applied after it's meaning has been established, so be it.

The whole drat point is that fascism isn't just 'a pile of bad things', it's that historical materialism is uniquely capable of defining and making sense of fascism.

Fascism is a qualitative shift in the class relations and state structure of a capitalist society. Finance and industrial capital temporarily relinquish power to state goals, which will inevitably be re-structured towards some form of ethnic identity project. This move has only happened historically as a result of a workers movement being crushed and absorbed by counter-revolution. Fascism is inherently less capitalist than bourgeois democracies.

So, no the USA isn't fascist, even though it was kinda established by a counter-revolution - because it is the quintessential example of the unrestrained rule of capital. Maybe it was fascist during WW2 kinda? For it to be fascist we would need to see a mobilized national/ethnic project overturning/mediating the rule of capital and that's never happened. There's also never been a real communist presence in NA. A histmat analysis suggests these two things are connected.

I do think fascism is purely reactionary. because I think fascism is stupid and incapable of being the project it wants to be. I also think we're going to get a lot more of it, but it's gonna be eco-reaction instead of revolution-reaction.

# ? Jul 11, 2021 02:01

The Voice of Labor: Apr 8, 2020

splifyphus posted:

Fascism is a qualitative shift in the class relations and state structure of a capitalist society. Finance and industrial capital temporarily relinquish power to state goals, which will inevitably be re-structured towards some form of ethnic identity project. This move has only happened historically as a result of a workers movement being crushed and absorbed by counter-revolution. Fascism is inherently less capitalist than bourgeois democracies.

what about when the goals of capital and the goals of the state are indistinguishable? what about the previously raised example of krupps running the nazi economy? the phrase military industrial complex is often invoked for a reason.

# ? Jul 11, 2021 02:19

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

george jackson wholeheartedly called the us a fascist state. he wrote that fascism came in three stages, each with its own mores that often got discarded in the next: a nascent stage where it's one movement among many, an ascendant stage in which it consumed society in an orgy of violence, and a resplendent stage where it thoroughly dominated and had already reorganized society. in his view, nazi germany represented the second stage and post-ww2 the third; characteristic of the third stage was the illusion of a mass culture created through racism and economic reform (workers felt like their desires were being responded to but capitalists were ultimately still in charge)

i've heard it said that a "classical" fash movement can't really get a lot of traction in the us because the us government is already sucking up all the fascist oxygen and basically executing on every fascist policy, such as racial apartheid, imperialist war, etc. obviously jackson was writing from inside a prison and measuring his remaining lifespan in weeks, but, then, most of us aren't, and who's to say his isn't the clearer view of modern american society?

# ? Jul 11, 2021 06:39

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# ? May 23, 2024 11:35

Diqnol: May 10, 2010