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NovemberMike posted:What gives you the impression I haven't looked at those things? Because the thread has covered this, ad nauseum, sometimes multiple times with the same poster. When you post like this it comes off as the derailment tactic where you refuse to acknowledge prior conversation and pretend to not understand. And when people who are tired of repeating themselves refuse, you say they're not serious or not informed. It comes of like that because that exact thing has been done several times in this thread already.
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Apr 28, 2021 05:23
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NovemberMike posted:Are you saying that you're generally ok with the powers and duties of the police but you want to abolish the specific system? There should not be a class of people above the law that holds the power of life and death that also are the ones to respond to a snickers bar being taken off the shelf. There is no actual alternative to salvaging the current system that would work better than simply abolishing the police and replacing them. At a certain point a system has become so broken that it is simpler and faster to simply dismantle it and police certainly qualify.
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Apr 28, 2021 05:39
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Sedisp posted:There should not be a class of people above the law that holds the power of life and death that also are the ones to respond to a snickers bar being taken off the shelf. There is no actual alternative to salvaging the current system that would work better than simply abolishing the police and replacing them. At a certain point a system has become so broken that it is simpler and faster to simply dismantle it and police certainly qualify. Yeah, a lot of the things we accept as being part of the profession of policing make absolutely no sense and if you explained them to someone completely unfamiliar with "the police" they'd tell you, "wow, that's loving stupid!" We, collectively, only put up with that poo poo because that's the way we've always done it.
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Apr 28, 2021 13:59
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https://twitter.com/carterforva/status/1387367079372902405?s=20 Cops rolling around like the Taliban or Klansmen in the back of a pickup to come murder you. https://twitter.com/equalityAlec/status/1387427970843824130?s=20 CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 16:17
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I wonder how many people cops kill a year just this way. As a reminder the UK is a racist shithole and they still only kill 3 people a year there.
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Apr 29, 2021 17:48
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Jaxyon posted:I wonder how many people cops kill a year just this way. The cops might only shoot 3 people a year here but the statistic you want is "deaths in police custody" or "deaths following police contact" as it often includes things like "repeatedly falling down the stairs on the way to the cells which coincidentally are on the ground floor" and "death as a result of being hit on the head by a cop with a truncheon but the cop wasn't convicted of killing the guy" https://www.inquest.org.uk/iopc-stats-2020 OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Apr 29, 2021 |
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Apr 29, 2021 18:10
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Welp so much for any cops being less bastards.
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Apr 29, 2021 18:41
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Jaxyon posted:Welp so much for any cops being less bastards. Australia isn't too bad: https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/sr13_national_deaths_in_custody_program.pdf Proportion wise, still racist towards killing Indigenous people, but a much lower death rate by police/in police custody than US/UK. E: This article is mostly about deaths with custody in prison, but here's a snapshot of police custody/operations related deaths that I grabbed from that PDF: 
Kalit fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Apr 29, 2021 |
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Apr 29, 2021 18:47
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https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/1388040601896161283 As usual a bunch of data. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 17:37
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I actually do have a question regarding policing in the context of public health emergencies. I think it's obvious that the police as they exist now are supremely unsuited to actually enforcing public health orders, having multiple times throughout this pandemic failed to actually police white anti-maskers in remotely the same way they treat other movements. But theoretically, in a just society, there would still be a potential need to enforce a ban on gatherings due to a pandemic. What would the response to that look like in a world where the police were abolished?
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May 8, 2021 17:44
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I suspect the answer is the same as to every other "what about situation X" question - in an ideal world, you'd have people who possessed relevant training instead of guns do it. The big impossible gap in the plan is still just the transition period between present day and ideal world.
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May 8, 2021 17:59
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“He seems like he’s tweaking, but he’s not doing anything wrong,” he says. “He’s just scaring my wife.” 
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May 8, 2021 22:00
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I had a weird day out at a rural rangeland research site yesterday, where some hillbilly ran away from a sheriff's deputy who had stopped him walking down a nearby road just for looking suspicious. ~16 cops then spent the next several hours surrounding our site while combing the sagebrush with dogs, drones and automatic rifles looking for this guy who ostensibly did nothing wrong and who--in the deputy's own words--"isn't dangerous, just stupid." I'd have felt a lot more comfortable with shirtless tweakers emerging from the brush around me than with these cops buzzing drones right over our heads for fun and watching us through binoculars from 3 different angles for half the day. Somehow this experience made me feel more unsafe than a time I had an ornery landowner accost me with a rifle in his hands. They came over to ask questions and search my truck and I realized my hands were shaking when I handed them my ID, having that sort of stress response to these assholes despite having absolutely nothing to hide or anything tangible to worry about should be a pretty big sign that something about this whole situation is hosed up. They didn't find him, bless his tenacious spirit. Sometimes there are happy endings, at least until a swat team kicks down his front door and shoots his dog in a couple days time.
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May 25, 2021 16:38
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https://twitter.com/sciam/status/1397235140313616390?s=20
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May 25, 2021 18:03
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well its good that cops are scared to gently caress around and find out now.
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May 26, 2021 02:22
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Someone pointed out to me that if George Floyd hadn't been murdered, nobody would have even heard of him. He very likely would have been jailed, bullied into a bullshit plea deal, and locked away for decades, all for a loving bounced check. Just like so many other black people who are imprisoned on bullshit charges. Which is definitely not to say that he's better off dead. But realizing that should highlight how horrendously cruel our criminal justice system is to black people even when it isn't murdering them.
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May 26, 2021 02:48
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Fister Roboto posted:Someone pointed out to me that if George Floyd hadn't been murdered, nobody would have even heard of him. He very likely would have been jailed, bullied into a bullshit plea deal, and locked away for decades, all for a loving bounced check. Just like so many other black people who are imprisoned on bullshit charges. pretty much. all because some store manager got loving weird and pissy about it. like rear end in a top hat. pretty sure george didnt know it was fake money. like a man is dead and alinements changed because some manager was a massive dipshit and inadvertently got a man murdered by cops. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 02:54 on May 26, 2021 |
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May 26, 2021 02:51
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Dapper_Swindler posted:pretty much. all because some store manager got loving weird and pissy about it. like rear end in a top hat. pretty sure george didnt know it was fake money. like a man is dead and alinements changed because some manager was a massive dipshit and inadvertently got a man murdered by cops. A lot of people who work in retail get any dodgy notes they accept taken out of their wages.
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May 26, 2021 08:27
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Morningwoodpecker posted:A lot of people who work in retail get any dodgy notes they accept taken out of their wages. Yeah so you just don't accept anything questionable. I worked in retail for like a decade and never saw the cops get called over a counterfeit bill, ever. I doubt the bill was even counterfeit. Also not only do white people not give a poo poo about black lives, George Floyd made us care even less: https://www.theroot.com/it-turns-out-all-those-woke-white-allies-were-lying-1846959017 quote:Recent polling numbers show that the support for Black Lives Matter has severely declined. Despite the litany of evidence, a May 21 PBS NewsHour/NPR/Marist poll insinuates that most white people still don’t believe Black people are treated differently by law enforcement officers. But when analysts examine the data, it shows that ethnic minorities’ support for the movement and for other key indicators for racial justice are higher than they were before George Floyd’s death. However, white people’s support has declined to levels lower than they were a year ago. 
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May 26, 2021 08:44
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Jaxyon posted:Yeah so you just don't accept anything questionable. I worked in retail for like a decade and never saw the cops get called over a counterfeit bill, ever. Dodgy notes can be hard to spot, that's sort of the idea.
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May 28, 2021 15:47
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Jaxyon posted:Yeah so you just don't accept anything questionable. I worked in retail for like a decade and never saw the cops get called over a counterfeit bill, ever. This isnt terribly surprising as the amount of "Crimes are skyrocketing!" headlines are kind of everywhere in response to defunding police departments getting any sort of traction. Im sure that the crime stats are completely legit though, in no way are the police cooking the books.
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May 28, 2021 16:48
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Police are too stupid to cook the books to that scale. It's probably happening but yes the media playing it up is causing a response. And it doesn't have anything at all to do with defunding the police, which almost completely did not happen.
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May 28, 2021 20:03
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Replying from USPol:VitalSigns posted:What I find fascinating about all the people posting polling data saying that defunding the police is popular, but the slogan "defund the police" is not, and wailing that we could make cuts to police funding happen if only those dastardly protestors would stop calling it that, is that none of yall ever seem to ask yourselves this simple question: Minneapolis did do exactly that. They shifted some money that was supposed to go to MPD and moved it to violence prevention measures. This was in addition to the initial proposed budget reduction because of the pandemic: https://www.minnpost.com/metro/2020...ng-in-the-city/. quote:The key point of contention between Frey and the council was the mayor’s proposed $176 million allotment to the Minneapolis Police Department. Granted, I don't think it's a meaningful enough amount to actually change anything. But it's not like they weren't following that polling, like you're claiming Kalit fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jun 2, 2021 |
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Jun 2, 2021 13:36
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Bringing this thread to the first page, because it appears people have opinions on the police in USPol. Lets see how much that translates to in depth posting here.
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Jul 9, 2021 19:07
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Relevant to content:FCKGW posted:https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/1410831313704304641?s=20
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Jul 9, 2021 19:09
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Yeah, it's not that there does not exist some theoretical set of reforms that could make police tolerable. It's that they're effectively impossible to implement; police are too thoroughly entrenched in existing power structures and too thoroughly encultured with antagonistic white supremacy to accept minor, tepid reforms, much less anything substantial. The only way to force them them to bargain is to hold their funding hostage. The entire line of complaints about bad slogans and unreasonable activists is just a smokescreen for the lack of political will to oppose the cop political machine. I don't think that's going to change until and unless the people poisoned with 80s/90s crime wave rhetoric either are disabused of that worldview, or are replaced by younger voters who aren't.
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Jul 9, 2021 20:02
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fool of sound posted:Yeah, it's not that there does not exist some theoretical set of reforms that could make police tolerable. It's that they're effectively impossible to implement; police are too thoroughly entrenched in existing power structures and too thoroughly encultured with antagonistic white supremacy to accept minor, tepid reforms, much less anything substantial. The only way to force them them to bargain is to hold their funding hostage. The other half of that is making their outright criminal behavior actually hurt them. The biggest problem is that anytime they kill someones dog, or murder a suspect, they never pay. Its the city that pays. It should be coming out of their skin. But no they are largely protected from actual consequences.
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Jul 9, 2021 20:08
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fool of sound posted:Yeah, it's not that there does not exist some theoretical set of reforms that could make police tolerable. It's that they're effectively impossible to implement; police are too thoroughly entrenched in existing power structures and too thoroughly encultured with antagonistic white supremacy to accept minor, tepid reforms, much less anything substantial. The only way to force them them to bargain is to hold their funding hostage. Yeah it's a very hard battle and people need to be pretty serious about it. That's why the constant whining about slogans bothers me. Are you about this work, or are you just talking poo poo? If the slogan doesn't work, fine, workshop another. This is stuff that needs to be done, complaining about slogans does nothing. Los Angeles passed Measure J and elected Gascon, sure. Result: the LA County supervisors are trying to overrule the measure and the sheriff is trying to recall the DA. These are very powerful interests, but they haven't won yet and there is popular support for reform/abolition. People have to do more than talk about how they don't like slogans. That's why, almost every single time, nobody who was involved in the "but my slogans!" discussion goes anywhere past that point or ventures into this thread.
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Jul 9, 2021 20:13
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Jaxyon posted:Yeah it's a very hard battle and people need to be pretty serious about it. That's why the constant whining about slogans bothers me. I think this happens because it becomes a proxy for arguing over whether it's acceptable for politicians to play the political games in re: "law and order" and saying nice things about cops. I feel like the argument always starts the exact same way: 1) Twitter link to some Democrat saying we need to reform the police or saying we shouldn't defund them. 2) Commentary on how that den is evil/bootlicker/whatever 3) Pushback that it's a bad/unpopular slogan so you can't expect politicians to use it if you want to get anything done 4) Argument over the slogan. I personally think it's a bad slogan, but I have no interest in complaining about people using it. My only motivation to complain about it is countering people demanding everyone must use it
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Jul 10, 2021 14:32
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Jarmak posted:1) Twitter link to some Democrat saying we need to reform the police or saying we shouldn't defund them. Then everyone goes on to talk about defund scares people and reform will never happen if we keep talking about defund, missing the entire point that reform doesn't work. Defund needs to happen, lets call it like it is. That dem politician isn't an evil bootlicker, but someone that needs to be educated on the ideas of defund vs reform and that isn't going to happen if we shy away from the argument. Defund is also a solution just as much as its a slogan. For years the goal has t=been to reduce the size of police forces and promote social services. Or even just to promote social services, and the pushback is always "Oh yea, those are good ideas, but how? Where will the money for social services come from?" Defund address that. Defund is the "fiscally conservative socially liberal" stance, people need to be convinced of that.
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Jul 10, 2021 17:30
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gently caress the police, etc. but saying "we already tried reform!" strikes me as a really weird take when basically everything actually done concerning law enforcement has been the OPPOSITE of reforms. Some of these overlap, but just off the top of my head: Qualified immunity being given to police War on drugs Mass use of wiretapping Police militarization, including literally giving military equipment to police Mass proliferation of no-knock warrants Mandatory minimum sentencing/3 strikes laws "Broken windows" policing 1994 Crime Bill Explosion of for-profit prison industry (including for children) Wide application of "Killology" style EVERYTHING MURDERS COPS training methods Like I don't think it's enough to just fiddle around the edges now because the state we're in with policing is a total shitshow, but we haven't "tried reform" seriously only for it to fail, the overwhelming trend since at least Nixon has been rushing headlong towards making everything even worse in all directions on purpose. Some people have been demanding reforms forever, sure (and it's sincerely great that they've been trying!), but they almost never got them.
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Jul 10, 2021 20:04
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sean10mm posted:gently caress the police, etc. but saying "we already tried reform!" strikes me as a really weird take when basically everything actually done concerning law enforcement has been the OPPOSITE of reforms. Basically this. It confuses me when people say "reform doesn't work" when reform has rarely happened. The few instances that are substantial enough for me to consider them "reform" would be Camden's police department, maybe CAHOOTS/STAR in Eugene/Denver, and possibly mandating/enforcing body cameras. Those have actually made substantial impacts, even if it's still far from the point that it's needed. These reforms didn't "not work". If someone could please clarify what specific reforms they are talking about when they say "reform doesn't work", that would be helpful (such as your post, eSporks). But I interpret that as policy/training changes, which I would argue is much different than actual reform. Attempted change that has no/minimal impact by definition is not reform. Kalit fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Jul 10, 2021 |
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Jul 10, 2021 23:04
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eSporks posted:I think its a little disingenuous to say everyone is coming at this from step 2, that's just twitter rabble. Step two is often "We've tried reform, reform doesn't work, it often results in increased budgets and disasters like the militarization of police. The goal is not to reform police, but to radically alter their role in our justice system and prop up human centered social programs and treatments. We live in a a society where money drives everything, police departments will only get smaller and have less power if we reduce their budgets. That's why it has to be defund and not reform" To be clear, I was commenting specifically on how the argument usually gets started on this forum.
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Jul 11, 2021 00:09
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Politicians who say "reform" do not do the things you are now defining as reform, but they have been patting themselves on the back for their "incremental improvements" for decades. That is what is meant by "we already tried that"
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Jul 11, 2021 03:09
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Harold Fjord posted:Politicians who say "reform" do not do the things you are now defining as reform, but they have been patting themselves on the back for their "incremental improvements" for decades. That is what is meant by "we already tried that" Who are these politicians? Please link specific examples with them claiming they’ve reformed the police.
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Jul 11, 2021 05:53
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The question you should be asking, Kalit, isn't "has reform been tried?". It should be "what has prevented reform from being tried?" and more importantly "what has to change to make reform viable?".
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Jul 11, 2021 06:40
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fool of sound posted:The question you should be asking, Kalit, isn't "has reform been tried?". It should be "what has prevented reform from being tried?" and more importantly "what has to change to make reform viable?". I mean, I guess that is the underlying question for sure. Unfortunately, when people say “we have tried reform and it doesn’t work” it makes me roll my eyes. And that’s because true reform hasn’t actually been tried yet for most places Kalit fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Jul 11, 2021 |
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Jul 11, 2021 07:10
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I think the difference is kinda immaterial since any earnest, good faith reform of american policing would be essentially the destruction of american policing as we presently know it. It's so rotten top to bottom, from the petty court system to beat cops to private prisons to detectives and swat teams to public defenders meant to defend people in capital cases. Probably the only branch of law enforcement I'd be fine with keeping in a recognisable form are parking enforcement officers, who I think are properly armed and equipped for their job.
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Jul 11, 2021 07:20
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Kalit posted:I mean, I guess that is the underlying question for sure. Unfortunately, when people say “we have tried reform and it doesn’t work” it makes me roll my eyes. And that’s because true reform hasn’t actually been tried yet for most places It's an extremely important question because, like Herstory says, the police require a level of reform that would render them almost unrecognizable, but because they're so deeply entrenched in power structures that level of reform is effectively impossible. Reform and defund and abolish are all non-viable to a very similar degree.
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Jul 11, 2021 16:52
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Kalit posted:I mean, I guess that is the underlying question for sure. Unfortunately, when people say “we have tried reform and it doesn’t work” it makes me roll my eyes. And that’s because true reform hasn’t actually been tried yet for most places You're correct that "true reform" hasn't been tried yet. But then what you should be asking is, given how often people have been lied to that we're going to reform the police, why should they be satisfied once again with "we're going to reform the police THIS TIME, just trust us dude"?
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Jul 11, 2021 17:11
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