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The Ring responds to calls but so does a dog. (Not a cat though).
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Jul 13, 2021 20:48
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euphronius posted:The Ring responds to calls but so does a dog. (Not a cat though). A cat would respond to Tevildo's calls, but probably not Sauron's.
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Jul 13, 2021 21:00
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euphronius posted:If you include culture if your conception of what a hobbit is then yes Deagol was not a hobbit. Deagol was ethnically a hobbit.
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Jul 13, 2021 21:50
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Maybe. It’s not clear from the text and I don’t know why we need to jump to that conclusion.
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Jul 13, 2021 23:00
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The Red Book was written from a Shire perspective, where there's something just off about Brandybucks and those degens from Bree-country are barely Hobbits at all. Anyone who had to cross a mountain to get to Frogmorton is technically some kind of beardless Dwarf.
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Jul 13, 2021 23:13
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It's definitely not clear whether outsiders were considered hobbits proper. And even the most distantly related of the outsiders was probably closer related to the Hobbits of the Shire and Bree than the river folk were.
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Jul 13, 2021 23:23
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There are places where the ring tempts Frodo in ways that make it seem like it has some sort of sensory faculty and agency. Several times in the story Frodo has an intrusive thought that he should put on the ring and use its invisibility to flee from danger, and it is repeatedly reinforced that these thoughts are not his own but come from the ring. It seems like the ring is capable of sensing something (Frodo's fear, perhaps) and responding accordingly. And Frodo being tempted to put on the ring in the house of Tom Bombadil seems to show that it's not just fear that triggers it (although you can also argue that incident is just Frodo being colossally stupid, rather than a ring-thought). There's also the incident in the common room of the Prancing Pony, and the aforementioned slipping from Isildur and Gollum, that make it seem like it can do more than just emit temptations. Gandalf's thinking that the ring has agency is more evidence, since he studied ring-lore and possibly has reasons to think that which we don't know about explicitly. It's not a slam-dunk case, I'll admit, but I think it's at least fair to say that from the text it seems the ring probably has some level of agency/intent, even if we don't know for sure. It's definitely not "stuff the movies made up for more drama."
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Jul 13, 2021 23:35
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euphronius posted:The Ring responds to calls but so does a dog. (Not a cat though). To be fair, you’re the only one that mentioned sentience. You also said the ring does not have intent, which it clearly does based on the text. Even non-sentient beings can have intent.
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Jul 13, 2021 23:42
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What is an example of the Ring having intent from The text.
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Jul 13, 2021 23:43
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euphronius posted:What is an example of the Ring having intent from One was already posted. You can choose to spin that any way you want (you already have) but it’s right there. The ring “betrayed”, “devoured”, and “abandoned”. You can say “well he didn’t mean it that way” but we’re talking about a magical ring infused with the spirit of an angelic being, it’s not exactly a stretch to say the ring has intent.
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Jul 13, 2021 23:53
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Fair enough. If you believe Gandalf that is certainly a fair interpretation
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Jul 13, 2021 23:58
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Gandalf believing something doesn’t make it so, he’s no expert and is explaining to someone who also isn’t an expert. The ring contains a part of the power, will, spirit of Sauron and behaves in ways that reflect this. I don’t think it’s losing the plot to say that the ring intends so and so or that it takes such and such an action: it’s not like the ring has a little mind that makes little choices about what to do, but people talk about objects which are not agents as if they were agents all the time; remember trees and rocks are ensouled in Middle-earth, but even today people will talk about their computer or car misbehaving and everyone knows what they mean. But I think it would be a stretch to say from that that it’s a being or that it is sentient or “has a will of its own” as the movies put it. It’s not a person or a natural object given a soul by God, it’s a subcreation made by hosed-up evil magic. It’s a technology, a kind of power.
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Jul 14, 2021 00:17
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skasion posted:Gandalf believing something doesn’t make it so, he’s no expert I mean, he literally spent years studying ring-lore. He's the closest thing Middle-Earth has to an expert on the One Ring, other than perhaps Saruman (and of course Sauron himself).
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Jul 14, 2021 00:22
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sweet geek swag posted:It's definitely not clear whether outsiders were considered hobbits proper. And even the most distantly related of the outsiders was probably closer related to the Hobbits of the Shire and Bree than the river folk were. quote:Your alternative (2) would be possible; but since the recorder says on p. 35 Hobbits (which he uses whatever its origin, as the name for the whole race), and not the Hobbits of the Shire, or Shirefolk, it must be supposed that he means that the custom of giving presents was in some form common to all varieties, including Stoors. But since your (3) is naturally true, we might expect even so deep-rooted a custom to be exhibited in rather different ways in different branches. With the remigration of the Stoors back to Wilderland in TA 1356, all contact between this retrograde group and the ancestors of the Shirefolk was broken. More than 1100 years elapsed before the Déagol- Sméagol incident (c. 2463). At the time of the Party in TA 3001, when the customs of the Shire-folk are cursorily alluded to insofar as they affect the story, the gap of time was nearly 1650 years. All Hobbits were slow to change, but the remigrant Stoors were going back to a wilder and more primitive life of small and dwindling* communities; while the Shire-folk in the 1400 years of their occupation had developed a more settled and elaborate social life, in which the importance of kinship to their sentiment and customs was assisted by detailed traditions, written and oral. Though I omitted any discourse on this curious but characteristic fact of their behaviour, the facts concerning the Shire could be set out in some detail. The riverside Stoors must, naturally, remain more conjectural. Letters, letter 214 (draft, unsent).
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Jul 14, 2021 00:23
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skasion posted:Gandalf believing something doesn’t make it so, he’s no expert and is explaining to someone who also isn’t an expert. The ring contains a part of the power, will, spirit of Sauron and behaves in ways that reflect this. I don’t think it’s losing the plot to say that the ring intends so and so or that it takes such and such an action: it’s not like the ring has a little mind that makes little choices about what to do, but people talk about objects which are not agents as if they were agents all the time; remember trees and rocks are ensouled in Middle-earth, but even today people will talk about their computer or car misbehaving and everyone knows what they mean. It's not a person but it is made out of a person.
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Jul 14, 2021 00:27
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If a mountain can sense the fellowship and intentionally throw a snowstorm at them explicitly designed only to impede forward progress and not retreating then I don’t see why it’s impossible for a ring imbued with the essence of a god to have some ability to sense things and be proactive, even if it’s not sentient.
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Jul 14, 2021 00:27
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skasion posted:Gandalf believing something doesn’t make it so, he’s no expert and is explaining to someone who also isn’t an expert. The ring contains a part of the power, will, spirit of Sauron and behaves in ways that reflect this. I don’t think it’s losing the plot to say that the ring intends so and so or that it takes such and such an action: it’s not like the ring has a little mind that makes little choices about what to do, but people talk about objects which are not agents as if they were agents all the time; remember trees and rocks are ensouled in Middle-earth, but even today people will talk about their computer or car misbehaving and everyone knows what they mean. I mean this whole discussion started by saying that the movies strayed from the books by portraying some sort of will or intent to the ring. But the movies do nearly the same thing as the books: have a wise character (or two) describe the ring as having intent.
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Jul 14, 2021 00:30
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DontMockMySmock posted:I mean, he literally spent years studying ring-lore. He's the closest thing Middle-Earth has to an expert on the One Ring, other than perhaps Saruman (and of course Sauron himself). Saruman and Sauron are the ring experts, yeah. Gandalf is an expert at blowing poo poo up. he’s definitely made a dedicated study of the One and is not completely talking out of his rear end about it, and we would expect he knows a thing or two about less powerful rings just as part of getting his wizard degree (ignoring the fact that he actually has a ring of power, since the text mostly ignores this anyway), but he doesn’t know everything about the ring and is deeply concerned to impress upon Frodo that this poo poo is Serious Business and he shouldn’t get too fond of the Ring, because it’s about to seriously threaten his life.
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Jul 14, 2021 00:31
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skasion posted:Saruman and Sauron are the ring experts, yeah. Gandalf is an expert at blowing poo poo up. he’s definitely made a dedicated study of the One and is not completely talking out of his rear end about it, and we would expect he knows a thing or two about less powerful rings just as part of getting his wizard degree (ignoring the fact that he actually has a ring of power, since the text mostly ignores this anyway), but he doesn’t know everything about the ring and is deeply concerned to impress upon Frodo that this poo poo is Serious Business and he shouldn’t get too fond of the Ring, because it’s about to seriously threaten his life. He knows more about the ring than you do though so I'm more inclined to listen to him than i am to listen to you 
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Jul 14, 2021 00:42
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Action George posted:If a mountain can sense the fellowship and intentionally throw a snowstorm at them explicitly designed only to impede forward progress and not retreating then I don’t see why it’s impossible for a ring imbued with the essence of a god to have some ability to sense things and be proactive, even if it’s not sentient. It's ambiguous in the book whether the snowstorm is caused by Caradhras itself or whether it's being sent by Sauron. "His arm has grown long" vs. "Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name, long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands."
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Jul 14, 2021 00:46
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reignonyourparade posted:He knows more about the ring than you do though so I'm more inclined to listen to him than i am to listen to you It’s true, I flunked wizard school
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Jul 14, 2021 00:46
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Mahoning posted:I mean this whole discussion started by saying that the movies strayed from the books by portraying some sort of will or intent to the ring. But the movies do nearly the same thing as the books: have a wise character (or two) describe the ring as having intent. This post has blown my mind because we’re both attributing intent and/or agency to books and movies, which are powerful works of technical art created by individuals or groups and are commonly implied to convey some of their spirit, but which are not, in fact, so far as we can determine, conscious or alive.
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Jul 14, 2021 00:48
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skasion posted:Saruman and Sauron are the ring experts, yeah. Gandalf is an expert at blowing poo poo up. he’s definitely made a dedicated study of the One and is not completely talking out of his rear end about it, and we would expect he knows a thing or two about less powerful rings just as part of getting his wizard degree (ignoring the fact that he actually has a ring of power, since the text mostly ignores this anyway), but he doesn’t know everything about the ring and is deeply concerned to impress upon Frodo that this poo poo is Serious Business and he shouldn’t get too fond of the Ring, because it’s about to seriously threaten his life. I don't think it matters anyways that Gandalf has a ring of power. His wasn't made by Sauron and doesn't behave like one of Sauron's rings would. It's made to preserve things whereas the other rings were made to dominate. So him having one wouldn't give him any special insight into how the rings behave anyways I don't think. He'd have to have owned a ring made by Sauron to get that kind of knowledge. Anyways I love how many of these questions are ambiguous. Speculating on them is one of the many things that brings me back to these books over and over again. I hate having everything explained and I love that Tolkien saw fit to leave a lot of mystery in his books.
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Jul 14, 2021 07:29
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are you peeps talking about sentience or sapience?
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Jul 14, 2021 11:27
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ChubbyChecker posted:are you peeps talking about sentience or sapience? Yeah I felt that was getting conflated upthread as well. Non-sapient beings can have intent, not so sure about non-sentient ...
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Jul 14, 2021 11:59
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Surely there can be dozens of post about whether or not sapience was implied with that one fox in Fellowship.
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Jul 14, 2021 21:59
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YaketySass posted:Surely there can be dozens of post about whether or not sapience was implied with that one fox in Fellowship. wouldn't be the only sapient animal in the books the real question is if it was a ring bearer because it was a pov character
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Jul 14, 2021 22:48
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the ring is at least sapient, because it can sense if its on one of sauron's fingers, and it can also sense the the size of the finger it's on and it can change its size like a sphincter to fit on a finger or to drop from one but it's not necessarily sapient
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Jul 14, 2021 22:54
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Whose will or command was it obeying when it abandoned Isildur to the orc ambush? Sauron had basically no power at that point.
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Jul 14, 2021 23:00
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Imagined posted:Whose will or command was it obeying when it abandoned Isildur to the orc ambush? Sauron had basically no power at that point. perhaps it could sense sauron in some way, and was just like trying to get closer
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Jul 14, 2021 23:04
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Maybe it's just an rear end in a top hat. e: hmmm 'anus' means 'ring' 
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Jul 14, 2021 23:20
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Omnomnomnivore posted:Maybe it's just an rear end in a top hat. 
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Jul 14, 2021 23:24
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Imagined posted:Whose will or command was it obeying when it abandoned Isildur to the orc ambush? Sauron had basically no power at that point. No one knows what happened then . Gandalf was making things up. Ok he was I think fairly inferring what maybe happened but he doesn’t know He has much better direct knowledge of bilbos experiences
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Jul 14, 2021 23:48
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Gandalf is probably extrapolating from what happened to Bilbo when he had just picked up the ring. It played a trick on him and let him walk right into the middle of a bunch of goblins. I’d guess Tolkien was thinking of that precedent when he came up with the idea.
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Jul 15, 2021 00:03
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Imagined posted:Whose will or command was it obeying when it abandoned Isildur to the orc ambush? Sauron had basically no power at that point. the ring is not sentient. if anything it could tell servants of the dark lord were nearby, and thus managed to fall off isildurs finger, hoping one of them would then retrieve it. being not sentient, it instead sank to the bottom of a river for thousands of years
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Jul 15, 2021 00:08
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Ginette Reno posted:I don't think it matters anyways that Gandalf has a ring of power. His wasn't made by Sauron and doesn't behave like one of Sauron's rings would. It's made to preserve things whereas the other rings were made to dominate. So him having one wouldn't give him any special insight into how the rings behave anyways I don't think. He'd have to have owned a ring made by Sauron to get that kind of knowledge. I don't think I'd dismiss it that much. It was made using Sauron's knowledge and had some mechanism binding it to the One Ring.
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Jul 15, 2021 00:14
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Indeed the 3 could not be used when sauron had the Ring.
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Jul 15, 2021 00:15
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euphronius posted:Indeed the 3 could not be used when sauron had the Ring. You probably could use them, but the consequences would probably be pretty severe.
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Jul 15, 2021 00:24
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When Sauron made the ring and as soon as he put it on the three elves heard the Ring verse in their head . Yeah that’s probably not good . It’s a dire poem Gandalf reports that and he obviously spoke to cirdan Galadriel and Elrond so the knowledge is pretty good
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Jul 15, 2021 00:46
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WoodrowSkillson posted:the ring is not sentient. if anything it could tell servants of the dark lord were nearby, and thus managed to fall off isildurs finger, hoping one of them would then retrieve it. being not sentient, it instead sank to the bottom of a river for thousands of years Stimulus, sensation, response. This is pretty drat indicative of sentience. It’s not very sapient, but I don’t think anyone is claiming that the ring is especially smart. It can detect servants of evil and do basic things like change size to try and fall off a hand, like when a plant senses a change in the weather and drops its seed, or manipulate anyone who has already been subject to its influence into putting it on so that they will be easier to find. Real brainstem stuff. The ring is sentient, but also stupid as gently caress.
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Jul 15, 2021 05:16
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