|
Love to turn my imperialism inward and become fascistic
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 20:29 |
|
|
# ? Jun 5, 2024 05:50 |
|
Sergg posted:Generalplan Ost, Nazi Germany's long-term plan for colonizing Eastern Europe, lists the percentage of each ethnic group to be exterminated and subsequently all surviving Slavic peoples were to be turned into illiterate chattel slaves circa the Antebellum South. Simple road signs and pictographs would be used to communicate to the slaves where bars, taverns, stores, etc. were. The land would be settled by agrarian German farmers using slave labor of the locals. But there’s a difference in a social and economic structure based on slavery/racial caste system and a political system that finds a use for undesirable populations in slave labor. I know, it’s a fine distribution. But fascism is a political philosophy and everything flows from that philosophy. The early United States (mostly the South but also defacto in the North) had sectors of the economy based upon the labor of enslaved peoples. And the political system of the early US didn’t mandate slavery (though it was allowed via the 3/5ths compromise and the slave trade clause). The US outgrew it eventually (though it took a civil war to settle it).
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 20:30 |
|
FrozenVent posted:While it doesn’t meet the exact dictionary of fascism, a system where the economy relies on part of the population being enslaved on the basis of their race certainly shares some characteristics. Just because it's bad doesn't mean it's fascism. If fascism is going to mean anything other than "vaguely authoritarian leanings which I don't like," we need to be precise in our language. When conservatives call Democrats "the real fascists" it would be better to have a counterargument beyond NO U. Fascism isn't a synonym for authoritarianism - and not all authoritarianism is the same. Stalin, Mao, Castro, Amin, Gaddafi - all authoritarians and none were fascist, or identical to each other. Hitler was a facist. Mussolini was a fascist. Franco was a fascist. Trump is a fascist. BUG JUG posted:yeah you're definitely wrong. fascism is an ideology born out of modernity and pluralist culture -- mainly as a reaction against it. the founders were (generally) -- despite their many, MANY issues -- Enlightenment idealists who believed that a democratic, open system was better than t he quasi-feudal one they were living under at the time. fascism would be completely foreign to them, and once it was explained to them they'd find it abhorrent. This is a key part. Fascism basically couldn't exist in the 18th century. Read Robert Paxton, the most definitive scholar studying the precise nature and history of fascist movements. This is his summary of what makes for fascism, though you really should read his writing for context and explanation: quote:- a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of traditional solutions The Founders were absolutely not fascist. Trumpism is the most successful genuine American fascism movement in the country's history and it still has a good chance of winning. Stultus Maximus fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Jul 13, 2021 |
# ? Jul 13, 2021 20:40 |
I don’t think slavery is “vaguely” authoritarian.
|
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 20:41 |
|
boop the snoot posted:I don’t think slavery is “vaguely” authoritarian. Freedom for me, not for thee.
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 21:08 |
|
Stultus Maximus posted:If fascism is going to mean anything other than "vaguely authoritarian leanings which I don't like," we need to be precise in our language. When conservatives call Democrats "the real fascists" it would be better to have a counterargument beyond NO U. Herein lies the rub; Who is going to listen to our counterargument? What is the arguments use? What is the value of not letting fascism be the word for "authoritarian unequal government who purposefully oppress select outgroups to the point of enslavement and elimination"? You already know it's going to be used that way whether you like it or not because there's a popular need for a word like it. (Also we all know this linguistic shift happened entirely because there were less letters in "fascism" than "authoritarianistic {[x]-subtype political system}", and that's ok.) ThisIsJohnWayne fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jul 13, 2021 |
# ? Jul 13, 2021 21:11 |
|
ThisIsJohnWayne posted:Herein lies the rub; Who is going to listen to our counterargument? What is the arguments use? Sartre posted:
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 21:21 |
BUG JUG posted:The founders were (generally) -- despite their many, MANY issues -- Enlightenment idealists who believed that a democratic, open system was better than t he quasi-feudal one they were living under at the time. Well I guess since they said that while owning slaves…
|
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 21:24 |
|
It’s important to understand the difference between different kinds of bad ideologies because they behave and react in different ways. That being said for the sake of rhetoric sometimes it’s easy to simplify. Trump isn’t really a fascist, he’s more like Franco in just being a right wing autocrat that’s friendly with them, but it’s close enough for the sake of rhetoric. A lot of his supporters, much like Franco are fascists. But he won’t behave like a Hitler.
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 21:27 |
“Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.” I know we are far removed from it but that sounds exactly like the world slaves were living in. I think people are looking at it from the slave owners perspective instead of the slave.
|
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 21:28 |
|
Saying something isn’t fascist doesn’t mean it wasn’t equally bad or worse.
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 21:32 |
|
Actual I think Von Hindenburg is a better analogy for Trump than Franco. I just don’t have a guess yet how the Hitler will be
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 21:36 |
|
I dipped into the Hell of Presidents podcast and got my mind blown by the idea that to the founders, 'liberty' = 'property' Went a long way to clearing up the contradictions that have always bugged me
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 21:57 |
|
Best Friends posted:I dipped into the Hell of Presidents podcast and got my mind blown by the idea that to the founders, 'liberty' = 'property' John Locke says "hi."
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 21:58 |
|
If defining Fascism is really this important to anyone, go to the library (or just buy a copy online or something) and pick up Fascism: A Very Short Introduction by Kevin Passmore. The book up front -- among other things -- lays out how genuinely difficult and troublesome it is to actually pin down a useful definition of fascism (or capital-F Fascism). It's genuinely interesting, not long, not expensive, and it is laid out in a way that makes it easy to zero in on the elements that are useful or interesting to the reader, and equally easy to skim or skip the more academic elements that might not be.
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 21:59 |
|
The Eyes Have It posted:If defining Fascism is really this important to anyone, go to the library (or just buy a copy online or something) and pick up Fascism: A Very Short Introduction by Kevin Passmore. The book up front -- among other things -- lays out how genuinely difficult and troublesome it is to actually pin down a useful definition of fascism (or capital-F Fascism). Umberto Eco's essay "Ur-Fascism" also goes into this difficulty, and offers a set of signifiers of fascist movements in history that can be useful as sort of like a clinical diagnostic scale: "if you said yes to more than nine of these symptoms..."
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 22:15 |
|
Lemniscate Blue posted:Umberto Eco's essay "Ur-Fascism" also goes into this difficulty, and offers a set of signifiers of fascist movements in history that can be useful as sort of like a clinical diagnostic scale: "if you said yes to more than nine of these symptoms..."
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 22:36 |
|
Some follow-ups! 1) This is about a day too late in the space conversation: https://twitter.com/PoorlyAgedStuff/status/1414945726338060291 2) I don't really know what Democrats can do when Republicans are doing poo poo like this in red states and now popularizing anti-vaxx at the top of their governments. I don't know how you penetrate that level of stupid. https://twitter.com/BGrueskin/status/1414765736447430657 https://twitter.com/BrettKelman/status/1415023788777934850 As this is the dude that's currently Tennessee's governor: https://twitter.com/samstein/status/1415035317413949441 quote:“I believe in choice,” Stitt said, “And we’ve got six children and we don’t vaccinate, we don’t do vaccinations on all of our children. So we definitely pick and choose which ones we’re gonna do. It’s gotta be up to the parents, we can never mandate that. I think there’s legislation right now that are trying to mandate that to go to public schools, it’s absolutely wrong. My wife was home schooled, I went to public schools, our kids go to Christian school, and that’s back to a parent’s choice.”
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 22:37 |
|
Ha, I'd forgotten we had that smilie or I'd have mentioned it. Yeah, it did get over-referenced in D&D (I think?) for a while.
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 22:42 |
|
My brother and his wife's family that he lives with are all solidly antivax even though they all got the rona bad in november and her died died. They love the "it's a personal choice" line and I made it clear in no uncertain terms over the course of a tense weeklong visit that I will remind them of that and then laugh at them if it works out poorly.
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 22:56 |
|
Public health is not a personal choice, spreading a loving plague doesn't stop at red state/blue state boundaries and it will kill people who had nothing to do with your god drat "choice".
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 23:33 |
|
The overuse of the word fascism to define "thing I don't like" nowadays makes me think maybe prescriptivists were right all along
|
# ? Jul 13, 2021 23:59 |
|
Eej posted:The overuse of the word fascism to define "thing I don't like" nowadays makes me think maybe prescriptivists were right all along Awfully fascistic of you
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 00:21 |
|
unfortunately, many of the people I don't like these days are actual literal fascists
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 00:23 |
|
The Eyes Have It posted:If defining Fascism is really this important to anyone, go to the library (or just buy a copy online or something) and pick up Fascism: A Very Short Introduction by Kevin Passmore. The book up front -- among other things -- lays out how genuinely difficult and troublesome it is to actually pin down a useful definition of fascism (or capital-F Fascism). Its based on philosophical tenets and isn't necessarily objective, particularly since political systems are based on a spectrum. Creating the illusion that these systems can be classified with black and white definitions is just a tool to vilify or white wash as necessary.
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 01:13 |
|
The Russian agency that developed Novichok and probably poisoned Navalny apparently got some equipment from a New Hampshire-based company with the same name as a Russian company that got on a US sanctions list this March. https://www.thedailybeast.com/new-hampshire-firm-intertech-corporation-shipped-wmd-tech-to-russian-spies-feds-say quote:Feds: New Hampshire Firm Shipped WMD Tech to Russian Spies
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 01:20 |
|
Sounds like a bunch of disruptophobes at the FBI
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 01:34 |
|
Trump isn't paid up on his fascism membership dues and never read any of their zines anyway
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 04:04 |
|
Seems like a bunch of poo poo going down in South Africa. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-14/south-africa-riots-stampede/100291104
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 04:09 |
I just saw 72 dead, it's big
|
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 04:22 |
|
facialimpediment posted:As this is the dude that's currently Tennessee's governor: Yeah just write, "I believe in choice..."
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 04:26 |
|
Eej posted:The overuse of the word fascism to define "thing I don't like" nowadays makes me think maybe prescriptivists were right all along I bolded the part that everyone likes, but the whole thing is worth reading. Orwell, 1944 posted:OF ALL the unanswered questions of our time, perhaps the most important is: ‘What is Fascism?’
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 06:23 |
https://twitter.com/Laurie_Garrett/status/1415065461562167296?s=20 I'll take the pornography definition for fascism since it's a huge semantics can of worms.
|
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 11:20 |
|
Right now, we've been lucky that the hypercontagious Delta variant has outcompeted all of the other variants, including some that had higher-than-expected vaccine evasion. The Israel study on Delta's evasion properties pretty much seems like an outlier at this point possibly due to numerator/denominator stuff (a lot are vaccinated!): https://twitter.com/C_Barraud/status/1413744552066834436?s=19 So if you're travelling or living in the southern states where covid is a hoax and vaccination rates are poo poo, probably wouldn't be a bad idea to wear a mask. It'll definitely be a terrible fall, but we'll see if it's a bad summer too when the heat sends everyone inside. facialimpediment fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Jul 14, 2021 |
# ? Jul 14, 2021 13:05 |
|
gently caress. I’ve got in-laws in GA and, aside from my two brothers-in-law, the rest are all unvaccinated. Most are just like apathetic to the vaccination but my father-in-law is very “come what may” (not in a negative way. He’s approaching 70, had a tough life, and found spirituality about 15 years ago). It’s infuriating, especially for my wife. She just wants to see her family and wants them to be safe but most of them are being ridiculous.
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 13:23 |
I still wear a mask in my heavily vaccinated area. I’ve started letting myself go without it outdoors sometimes but indoors it’s still mandatory for me. and you have a better chance of seeing Donald Trump do a sit-up than you do seeing me go to a red state right now.
|
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 13:25 |
|
Thwomp posted:gently caress. The good news is, the delta variant doesn't really seem to have mRNA vaccine resistance. Essentially 100% of cases and deaths right now are people who refuse to get the shot. It sucks having family that won't get the shot, though. My step-mom, despite watching my father nearly die, is a skeptic and is unvaccinated.
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 13:35 |
|
Mr. Nice! posted:The good news is, the delta variant doesn't really seem to have mRNA vaccine resistance. The Lambda variant, though... =/
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 13:54 |
|
BIG HEADLINE posted:The Lambda variant, though... =/ Isn't spreading because of how prevalent the delta spread is.
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 14:08 |
|
|
# ? Jun 5, 2024 05:50 |
|
facialimpediment posted:Right now, we've been lucky that the hypercontagious Delta variant has outcompeted all of the other variants, including some that had higher-than-expected vaccine evasion. The Israel study on Delta's evasion properties pretty much seems like an outlier at this point possibly due to numerator/denominator stuff (a lot are vaccinated!): I'm seeing this play out locally. One county has hit their vaccination goal, the county bordering to the north has not. The northern county elevated their 'rona tracker risk level within 2 weeks of detecting the delta variant. It's going to be really interesting come election time when a significant portion of one party is either dead or in some COVID death ward because they refused to take a vaccine.
|
# ? Jul 14, 2021 14:25 |