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Boxman posted:Did I miss an explanation for the fiction of the Timekeepers? Religion has some wacky ideas when you get down to it.
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Jul 14, 2021 15:45
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I really did not enjoy Wandavision or Falcon & Winter Solider and suffered through both and Loki is the only major MCU character I actively disliked....until this drat show knocked it out of the park. Simply wow. I like Loki now Fantastic show with an extremely satisfying ending. I cannot wait to see where they go with all of this.
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Jul 14, 2021 15:47
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live with fruit posted:I'm also hoping for an explanation as to how Mysterio knew about all of this. Far From Home takes place eight months after Endgame, while this is only a week or so after.
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Jul 14, 2021 15:49
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I didn't dislike the finale at all, but it doesn't really save the show for me. The worldbuilding is still incredibly wonky and breaks apart with a bit of prodding, and the "twist" behind everything falls into a serious case of being redundant. We are originally told that the TVA has to preserve the sacred timeline by pruning variant timelines, because otherwise we would end up with chaos and multiversal war. It sucks for the variants involved, but the ends justify these means. Halfway through the show, we're led to believe that oh drat, this is a lie! There's something going on behind the scenes that is being kept from everyone, and it's up to our plucky Lokis to find out what! ...and then it turns out that this great big secret is that...welp, the TVA has to preserve the sacred timeline by pruning variant timelines, because otherwise we would end up with chaos and multiversal war. It sucks for the variants involved, but the ends justify these means. .........okay cool, glad we discovered that the truth behind everything is functionally what we were told in the first episode anyway. That sure was a step...laterally.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:04
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I mean, the twist is that multiversal war isn’t some inevitable condition of existence, it’s literally one guy with an ego so immense that he thinks he is both the source of and solution to all of existence’s problems*. * So definitely Reed Richards. I liked this series. It was neat. Felt like the best bits of Doctor Who writ large.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:10
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I feel like that episode could’ve been 10 minutes and gotten the same things across.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:18
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Phylodox posted:I mean, the twist is that multiversal war isn’t some inevitable condition of existence, it’s literally one guy with an ego so immense that he thinks he is both the source of and solution to all of existence’s problems*. Not Reed Richards. Nathaniel Richards, and I'm not even joking.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:18
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A.o.D. posted:Not Reed Richards. I know you’re not joking, but it’s got to be Reed. Nobody else’s ego could compare.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:22
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Phylodox posted:I know you’re not joking, but it’s got to be Reed. Nobody else’s ego could compare. 
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Jul 14, 2021 16:23
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I guess I like this better than the WandaVision finale, but I hated that one. But God, so much exposition they could’ve been done visually, musically, through character development or choices… “The characters go to a place, then talk to somebody.” How is that 90% of the episode.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:25
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Phylodox posted:I mean, the twist is that [spoiler]multiversal war isn’t some inevitable condition of existence, it’s literally one guy with an ego so immense that he thinks he is both the source of and solution to all of existence’s problems*. As I was listening to the exposition, all I could think was "Sure, but all this would also be avoided much more simply just by killing every single version of you, baby Hitler style."
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Jul 14, 2021 16:35
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honestly i'm glad it did not end with sky laser battles
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Jul 14, 2021 16:38
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The exposition scene warped time for me, when it was over I was ready for the real meat of the finale and then it just sorta ended. Cool enough, I guess. Depends on how much you enjoy the character performance of Majors. It's strange that Disney is choosing to have finale episodes be shorter than the preceding episodes, it happened with the other series too. I hope season 2 isn't a full year out, it definitely felt like a "part 1" ending.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:44
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Phylodox posted:I know you’re not joking, but it’s got to be Reed. Nobody else’s ego could compare. Like this all ends with Majors playing Reed Richards in F4?
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Jul 14, 2021 16:45
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The_Doctor posted:No, this would have been dumb as anything. Restraint prevailed. Why do you hate fun? 
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Jul 14, 2021 16:46
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live with fruit posted:Like this all ends with Majors playing Reed Richards in F4? I mentioned in the BSS thread that I'd love for this to happen. He doesn't have to be Reed's descendant, just let him be Reed. Everyone is familiar with the variant concept now. Let it fly. More Majors is a good thing.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:49
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Golden Bee posted:“The characters go to a place, then talk to somebody.” How is that 90% of the episode. Maybe it'd work better for people that are binge-watching. I feel I would've enjoyed the finale a little more had I not been waiting a week for it.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:52
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looking forward to more Jonathan Majors
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Jul 14, 2021 16:54
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Loved the ending. I honestly think watching week by week and theorizing made it all that much better. I'm curious how it would hold up for people who watch it all at once. Majors was amazing of course. I cracked up at the "Nice nose." line. Simulation883 fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 16:57
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X-O posted:I mentioned in the BSS thread that I'd love for this to happen. He doesn't have to be Reed's descendant, just let him be Reed. Everyone is familiar with the variant concept now. Let it fly. More Majors is a good thing. Personally, that's how it feels. Majors is going to play a different character in Quantumania so why stop there? Especially if F4 subs for an Avengers movie this phase, it'll have a lot of buildup. It'd also explain why they haven't announced anything yet.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:59
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I really don't love introducing the Grand Master villain in the last episode like this without any build up. As a self-contained piece of work (which this is absolutely not going to be, there will be seasons to come) I would have preferred it to be a character we've met before. But so it goes. Serialization, keep hinting at new works, its been a hallmark of the MCU. Every piece of media is an advertisement for the next thing to come. I also find something very cynical about the Loki 'I just want you to be okay' line - there's something about that....like Disney metabolizing millions and millions of mental health self-help memes on social media and spitting something out that seems calibrated to fit with the current discourse on mental health. Like WandaVision, there's an overt attempt to be relatable and say something meaningful about trauma, loss and mental health, but it comes across as super weird when you're dealing with Gods who have super powers and are mass murderers, and you hear them say something akin to 'It's OK to not be OK' - about our world, our experience. I recognize many people find comfort in Marvel media voicing this kind of stuff, I just find it Weird as hell.
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Jul 14, 2021 17:02
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Got 00's planet of the ape vibes from that ending.
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Jul 14, 2021 17:19
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Mike N Eich posted:but it comes across as super weird when you're dealing with Gods who have super powers and are mass murderers, and you hear them say something akin to 'It's OK to not be OK' - about our world, our experience. I mean, the MCU has never been shy about the fact that the “gods” of this universe are very, very, extremely human. They’re not even really the human experience writ large, they’re pretty much the human experience written in a slightly bolder font.
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Jul 14, 2021 17:26
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Vintersorg posted:That was a great episode and I do not read comics. Just information gleamed from posts and videos on youtube. While I am not a fan of cliffhangers cause I am impatient I cannot wait to delve more into this story. This was the best of the Disney+ shows and stuck every landing. I think this is gonna be the great dividing line. You'll like how Loki ended if you like delving and exploring the concept. If you're just trying watch a superhero movie and uninterested in doing that, it feels like you're gonna be dissapointed. Personally I loved it. But I'm an immense nerd.
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Jul 14, 2021 17:31
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Majors was really chewing through scenery, but he still gave a layered performance that really captured the menace, age, and wisdom hiding underneath his youthful looks and cheery tone. I definitely wasn't sold on the idea of Kang being the next big bad until I actually saw him in action and now I'm 100% on board with the next phase.
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Jul 14, 2021 17:35
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So two things about that ending bit One: We're seeing two different TVA's during the ending the one where Mobius and B-15 watch the timeline diverge on the monitor and the one where Loki ends up. Secondly in the other TVA Mobius doesn't even recognize Loki as a Loki. He's not like "Oh hey it's Loki" or even "WTF is a Loki variant doing here?" he doesn't seem to recognize what a Loki is at all as if he's never seen one before. I'm wondering if Season 2 is going to be kinda a "It's a Wonderful Life" type scenario where Loki explores a Loki-less universe/multiverse. Edit: Also, I wonder if those files Renslayer got are the reason for the Loki-less TVA. Maybe Kang gave her the info to make a Loki-less Sacred Timeline, insuring that Kangs appear again, he can win out again and rule time again. But this time without a pair of Loki's showing up to stab him again because none exist. Viscous Soda fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 17:41
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Viscous Soda posted:So two things about that ending bit One: We're seeing two different TVA's during the ending the one where Mobius and B-15 watch the timeline diverge on the monitor and the one where Loki ends up. Secondly in the other TVA Mobius doesn't even recognize Loki as a Loki. He's not like "Oh hey it's Loki" or even "WTF is a Loki variant doing here?" he doesn't seem to recognize what a Loki is at all as if he's never seen one before. I'm wondering if Season 2 is going to be kinda a "It's a Wonderful Life" type scenario where Loki explores a Loki-less universe/multiverse. yeah that "you're an analyst, right?" or whatever means things are WAY different, beyond merely Kang running things. either it's one where there are no lokis or one where they've never pruned them
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Jul 14, 2021 17:44
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I feel a lot more of this show in particular was rewarding to the people that have actually read the comic stories it draws from. A lot of the concepts in this show are largely unchanged from the page unlike other MCU adaptations. This show felt more like a deep dive into Marvel comic nerdery than I feel a lot of the other stuff has. Sometimes even in fan circles not a lot of love is given to those old Stern/Gruenwald era stories from the late '70s into the mid '80s. Gruenwald in particular I find is kind of viewed sometimes as a nerd's nerd in that he was obsessed with detail, canon, history, and weird cosmic concepts like this. And this show really embraces that aspect of his work.
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Jul 14, 2021 17:47
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Loki finale was fun but not great, even by MCU standards it really felt like it was prioritizing setting up future projects over telling its own story even for a Marvel villain, Jonathan Majors was hamming it up too drat much imo
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Jul 14, 2021 17:59
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Good episodes: 1,2,5 Bad episodes: 3,4,6 Okay show, I was expecting more of the finale. "One wacky guy is running everything" is disappointing. I also wasn't hoping for season 2, so the open end was not ideal.
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Jul 14, 2021 18:21
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Phylodox posted:I liked this series. It was neat. Felt like the best bits of Doctor Who writ large. Really liked this and definitely on the whole show feeling very Doctor Who-ish. Not to everyone's taste of course but I like the occasional Sci Fi where it's less about rapid fire and high wire an more talky talky. Problem with talky talky is the charisma and overall talent of the actor has a ton of weight to pull. Loki the show wasn't perfect by any stretch but Hiddleston, Wilson and really everyone in the show were gold. Kinda reminds me of Lucifer where the show is elevated by a great performance. I'm still kinda sad we didn't have more episodes with Wilson and Hiddleston as buddy cops solving timecrimes. Matter of fact that is probably the main weakness of the show.... needed more episodes to breathe a little. To build up the Sophie/Loki romance and the Mobius/ Ravonna friendship if nothing else. It went a little too fast for my tastes but overall really liked the series. Like WandaVision, it had a style and plot I really enjoyed but Loki had a far more enjoyable ending. Still haven't revisited the final WandaVision ep but I remember being very underwhelmed. Simulation883 posted:Loved the ending. I honestly think watching week by week and theorizing made it all that much better. I'm curious how it would hold up for people who watch it all at once. That was a perfect facsimile of a Doctor Who season finale and made me wonder when the Christmas Ep comes out. Not a complaint at all as Loki seemed to revel in being a big budget modern take on classic British Sci Fi. Really enjoyed Majors as a variant of Kang. Definitely hope he is cast as A Richards in some future FF movie. Thought his performance was spot on and I swear I read or saw something once where the heroes meet an old and dying senile version of a future big bad before the actual big bad himself. Either way I really enjoyed it. Last episode was very flashy (Richard E Grant Old Man Loki went out like a G) and glad this one avoided big cgi battle cliche. Knew I would like this show and happy I wasn't disappointed. Can't wait for more Hiddleston Whovian adventures. Hoping the second season keeps the retro aesthetic as that is one of my other favourite things about this show. I really, really dig the theme song to this show as well. X-O posted:I feel a lot more of this show in particular was rewarding to the people that have actually read the comic stories it draws from. A lot of the concepts in this show are largely unchanged from the page unlike other MCU adaptations. This show felt more like a deep dive into Marvel comic nerdery than I feel a lot of the other stuff has. Sometimes even in fan circles not a lot of love is given to those old Stern/Gruenwald era stories from the late '70s into the mid '80s. Gruenwald in particular I find is kind of viewed sometimes as a nerd's nerd in that he was obsessed with detail, canon, history, and weird cosmic concepts like this. And this show really embraces that aspect of his work. tweet my meat posted:Majors was really chewing through scenery, but he still gave a layered performance that really captured the menace, age, and wisdom hiding underneath his youthful looks and cheery tone.
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Jul 14, 2021 18:21
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I feel like I have so many logistical questions about how Kang works and how he does what he does. Like, how does killing him instantly causes the timelines to split? I got the impression that the 'end of time' is still happening linearly (which is why he didn't know what would happen after a certain point). Is his death supposed to undo all the work he's done previously and instantly cause all of those branches to reappear? So is he a regular dude with time travel technology or does he somehow have some inherent power? And how has this version of him lived for millennia? I don't know if not having read the comics makes it harder to understand. Either way I liked it - and I really hope this is a setup for the next few phases of the MCU rather than just a setup for Loki season 2.
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Jul 14, 2021 18:26
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I got the impression that Not Kang went loopy from the isolation.
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Jul 14, 2021 18:29
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stev posted:I feel like I have so many logistical questions about how Kang works and how he does what he does. The impression I took was that as soon as his script ended, the timeline started to branch. The Lokis can either take his offer, clip the branches and run the TVA - or kill him, letting the branches redline, which is what allows Bad Kang(s) to reappear and try to take over. That's what the TVA was trying to prevent all this time. Branch redlines and another potentially war-like Kang is spawned. Did I miss it, or did they never reveal what caused their Nexus Event on Lamentis?
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Jul 14, 2021 18:37
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Raivin posted:
The power of love.
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Jul 14, 2021 18:39
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stev posted:I feel like I have so many logistical questions about how Kang works and how he does what he does. Kang knows everything and sees everything. Without him to guide the TVA and give them their marching orders, a variant Kang the Conquerer will always figure out how to manipulate time and want to take over everything. The TVA is curating the timeline so that it's eventually just 1, with the more "benevolent" Kang in it. Without the benevolent figure at the citadel at the end of time, one of the timelines will branch out with his evil variant in it. Time is always happening, always. Lets say you go to the store and buy some chocolate chip cookies. You eat the cookies. For us we passed this thresh-hold where we got the chocolate chip cookies and ate them. We can't change this. This doesn't stop a previous iteration variant of ourselves in a timeline that is always active from going to the store and buying lemon cakes. Your past and future self can make different decisions or have different circumstances acted upon them (being born an alligator) than you do. Nelson Mandingo fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 18:39
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I kind of hope they let Hiddleston be a bit more villainous nextt season. He was kind of a passenger for most of the season.
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Jul 14, 2021 18:39
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DogsInSpace! posted:Really liked this and definitely on the whole show feeling very Doctor Who-ish. Not to everyone's taste of course but I like the occasional Sci Fi where it's less about rapid fire and high wire an more talky talky. Problem with talky talky is the charisma and overall talent of the actor has a ton of weight to pull. Loki the show wasn't perfect by any stretch but Hiddleston, Wilson and really everyone in the show were gold. Kinda reminds me of Lucifer where the show is elevated by a great performance. I'm still kinda sad we didn't have more episodes with Wilson and Hiddleston as buddy cops solving timecrimes. Matter of fact that is probably the main weakness of the show.... needed more episodes to breathe a little. To build up the Sophie/Loki romance and the Mobius/ Ravonna friendship if nothing else. It went a little too fast for my tastes but overall really liked the series. Like WandaVision, it had a style and plot I really enjoyed but Loki had a far more enjoyable ending. Still haven't revisited the final WandaVision ep but I remember being very underwhelmed. I admit that after that I kind of want some kind of "stand-alone" episode to discover how Ravonna Renslayer, schoolteacher variented enough to become Judge Renslayer Meanwhile Majors's performance reminded me a little of Christopher Eccelston's as the Ninth Doctor as this terrifying, ancient being who was trying really, really hard to be gurny/goofy so as not to scare the holy living gently caress out of everybody around him - and usually failing when he tried. Really the twist here is that even the TVA was pretty much on a "sacreder-than-thou" timeline. He-Who-Remains pretty much allowed/orchestrated this whole business as a kind of weird job interview for Loki and Sylvie. The choices he offered was pretty much "Leave me in charge and I'll give you some version of the 'happy endings that you think you want" Or "take over for me (whether you kill me or not) and run the TVA in maybe a better, more humane way if you can find one." Or. "Kill me and don't take over for me and after yet another horrifying multiversal war yet another version of me, which might well be worse than I am, will eventually be back in charge eventually. Everyone fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 18:43
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stev posted:I feel like I have so many logistical questions about how Kang works and how he does what he does. Okay, I think a lot of people are really overthinking the plot here because it's all time stuff. But it's really straightforward. On the above question: It's because there's nobody in charge of the TVA once he dies, which means there's nobody around to prune variants across time, which is going to cause multiple universes to split off, which means more Kangs. It's not that the work's undone, it's that you have to keep at it. The universe wants to split off in different directions and so the TVA needs to keep on pruning, otherwise you end up with multiple versions kang once you hit the 31st century. On the final shot of the episode, I think it's pretty obvious that there's only one TVA because they've gone to such great pains to show how it exists outside of time/the universe, and because there are now multiple Kangs across time and space, one of them has somehow retroactively taken it over. Lastly, He Who Remains is, at the start of the episode, the only Kang who has ever existed, but only because he won the multiverse war, and then went and did the work of stopping any other Kangs from ever existing. That's why he says that stuff to Sylvie at the end - all she's doing is creating the conditions for the multiversal war to once again happen, in which case He Who Remains and his timeline will eventually win out because that's what happens. I could be wrong though - it could just be that this time around a more evil Kang is gonna win out, who might be the guy we see as a statue at the end. Really great performance though. It makes me actually excited for the next phase of the MCU. I hope the characterisation doesn't change too much now that it's going to be a less benevolent version of Kang
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Jul 14, 2021 18:43
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Also the actual version of events isn't really different from the fake story the TVA was given. They were created to prune branching timelines and stop a multiverse war from breaking out. The only real difference is that Kang himself seems to be the main cause of the war (as opposed to the millions of other warmongers in every timeline). He didn't really need to go to the trouble of building robot Time Keepers. 
stev fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 18:44
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