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LividLiquid posted:Don't tell anybody, but Wandavision was a villain's origin story. See that’s my issue. If it was presented as being a villain origin story it does work. But if you look at the reactions online everybody act like it just showed how complex and Girlboss Wanda was. In this show, The main character and the main Loki that we have know has a very solid character arc. In fact, because his counterpart/love interest has the option of evolving but instead chooses to regress, it makes the rest of the chaos more interesting. They even hang a hat on it by talking about a classic heroes journey in that scene. Wandas arc is… she now knows she’s an even bigger badass and it’s okay to be sad?
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Jul 15, 2021 01:13
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Mulva posted:So I think the lesson here is that this is all bullshit and you should not only not overthink it, you shouldn't any level at all think it. After much gnashing of my teeth in this thread trying to make this show's plot make sense, this is the strategy that I eventually accepted and it led to a much, much higher level of enjoyment. Like, look at this: quote:The concept comes from an early "Loki" pitch meeting between the show's head writer Michael Waldron and producers Steven Broussard and Kevin Wright. "We were talking about [how] we want to meet many different versions of Loki in this show," says Waldron. "I was just like, there should be an Alligator Loki. And it's like, well, why? Because he's green." This is the level of thought that the people creating the show put into the alternate timeline vs multiple universe issue.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:21
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Pro-tip: a fictional character can be as vile and irredeemable as they want as long as it's interesting or compelling to watch. This isn't a statement for or against WandaVision and it's also not a statement for or against Loki (the show), but a critique of your critique. Declaring "BUT WANDA'S SO BAD! SHE MIND-RAPED PEOPLE!" over and over again is not a very compelling reason to not enjoy that story.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:25
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My mum liked the show and the ending despite having very little idea about comics, so I guess the ending wasn't just sacrificing an internal narrative arc exclusively to squeeze in an extended Kang shaped nod to the fans, it was also appealing to a 60 year old hard sci-fi reader. You could say there's a lot of variance in our reactions. I loved it, for the record. There's probably a version of me in the multiverse that hated it tho edit: and I will FIGHT THEM SomeKindofVerb fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jul 15, 2021 |
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Jul 15, 2021 01:26
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gently caress yea that episode slapped.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:28
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Retrowave Joe posted:What? No, they just pruned Loki and the immediate vicinity. Do you get what the concept of pruning is? It's eliminating the variation from how time is in He Who Remains' reality so there is only the one timeline, rather than a multiverse of events. The arbitrary decision point he made is "My reality is the one I'll keep". That's what people deviate from. And the TVA is the tool by which that variance is corrected. Ok with that so far? The way that time is supposed to go doesn't involve the plot of Endgame. They've explicitly told you that. The Avengers were supposed to do time nonsense, but Loki wasn't supposed to get away. So they pruned that variance. Which means they left a reality in which things played out as it was supposed to. But in a reality that played out as it was supposed to, Loki never got away with the Tesseract. And if he doesn't, there's no reason they'd make a trip further into the past. They already have what they needed, they'd immediately go home with mission accomplished. And even if some new wacky hijink caused them to go into the past, it still wouldn't be the movie we saw because we did see the version where Loki escapes. So all those people we saw actually were unmade, and I guess got eaten by a horrific time monster. As one is. That is what the tv show you were watching explicitly told you to your face. Episode 5 told you that the Void is where they drop the timelines that get pruned. Not just people, but land and buildings and everything. NotKang told you that he used his pet time and space eating monster to eat all the timelines but his, and he used the TVA to eliminate all the splinters from his so it remained without deviation. The entire plot of Endgame hinges on a major deviation from how things were supposed to go because of what Loki did. Which the TVA corrected, nominally, as they do. That is what the tv show you are watching told you Is that nonsense? Sure, but that's the point. All time travel media is nonsense, don't think about it too heavily.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:30
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BrianWilly posted:Pro-tip: a fictional character can be as vile and irredeemable as they want as long as it's interesting or compelling to watch. I’m fine with vile and irredeemable. What I’m not fine with is a show that was badly paced and the excuse for that was that it was a character study ending with a character doing some thing that was deemed fine in the show, when It was obviously not if we were examining with the same lens we were supposed to appreciate the study of said characters. falcon and the Winter soldier had a different problem. They were starting to go some interesting places, and then ended it with a wet fart of a last episode and a Pepsi let’s not be racist speech. Loki on the other hand, stayed consistent to its tone throughout the show.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:32
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incoherent posted:Well you're in luck because you didn't meet him! You were introduced a character the protagonists were chasing over the 6 episodes and concluded with their death. You'll still have time to be introduced to kang, properly. This was a bone thrown to the comic heads. Yeah the better name for who that was is probably Immortus. Most of my knowledge of the characters is from a mini series called Avenengers Forever from the late 90s that I think someone in bss recommended when it was learned Kang had been cast, but in general terms Immortus wants to curate time while Kang wants to conquer it. They don't get along.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:35
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:What if...? is supposed to be episodic. So, if there is a coherent narrative conclusion at the end, then that would be weird. Nah, it's not totally episodic. There's been merch leak referring to the Guardians of the Multiverse in the series with the team consisting of pretty much all the main characters we've seen in the trailers. They were also in the trailer together for a split second.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:41
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The entire finale felt like it was 5-6 different people in 3-4 different rooms talking to each other. I wasn't a huge fan. I would have preferred the monologue not be done literally across a desk.
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Jul 15, 2021 02:08
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volts5000 posted:"See you soon..." That was a good line and tied it together yeah
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Jul 15, 2021 02:18
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KittyEmpress posted:The entire finale felt like it was 5-6 different people in 3-4 different rooms talking to each other. I wasn't a huge fan. I would have preferred the monologue not be done literally across a desk. At least the backgrounds were interesting and informative
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Jul 15, 2021 02:20
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A friend who is a giant Thor comic fan noticed something in Episode 6 The number 372 appeared on the left side of the screen towards the end. Thor issue 372 was the first appearance of the TVA. Loki might be back at the start of the TVA now.
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Jul 15, 2021 02:21
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What an underwhelming finale. Having a completely new character monologue for 20 minutes and then die, with vague consequences, was not a good ending to this show. Overall I wonder if this story was forced to change for Covid. The first couple episodes felt cohesive, focused on Loki and Möbius, and it all worked. Then mobius basically dropped out of it and it became the world’s least convincing romance between Loki and Sylvie. It all felt like the product of hasty rewrites. The ending seemed designed to only satisfy comics readers who knew who Kang (a B-level nobody villain) was, with no actual care given to the relationships from the show. Actual question: did that cliffhanger (the TVA is a little different and has a new statue, but all the characters don’t remember each other) really make anyone excited to see more? All the positive talk I have seen revolves around how it will lead into Dr. Strange, which really has nothing to do with the quality of this story, just about how well it is setting up another story. Anyhow, a real bummer of a flat ending for such a nice looking show.
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Jul 15, 2021 02:21
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Calling he who must not be named a B-level nobody villain could be fair, but Marvel has pretty much made stars of those kind of characters, I don't think anyone outside the comics knew who Iron man or The guardians of the galaxy were until those movies.
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Jul 15, 2021 02:47
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Boris Galerkin posted:This finale was a huge disappointment for me because I don’t know who the gently caress Kang is suppose to be or why I should care. they explained it people are complaining about the episode because they sat there and explained it
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Jul 15, 2021 02:51
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KittyEmpress posted:The entire finale felt like it was 5-6 different people in 3-4 different rooms talking to each other. I wasn't a huge fan. I would have preferred the monologue not be done literally across a desk. This is amazing to me, because this show literally only worked for me when it was 5-6 different people in 3-4 different rooms talking to each other. That one central monologue went for basically 11 minutes (until the cut that leads to the fight), and I was ENTHRALLED by the performance. EDIT: strikethrough != spoiler
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Jul 15, 2021 02:53
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I've said it before but to me, Loki wasn't a bad show but fell nonetheless into pretty egregious cases of telling instead of showing. Entire swaths of worldbuilding, of character relationships, of story elements got covered by onerous infodumps instead of just...having those things happen. Onscreen. In the episode. It feels like the mark of a show with a lot of good ideas but not a lot of proper execution of those ideas. Like, I'm sure Doctor Who is actually a pretty good series or whatever, but everyone going on about how this feels just like Doctor Who just makes me think "Yeah I definitely don't want that."
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Jul 15, 2021 02:57
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Ishamael posted:What an underwhelming finale. Having a completely new character monologue for 20 minutes and then die, with vague consequences, was not a good ending to this show. I wouldn't call the consequences vague, they were literally stated then shown to have happened.
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Jul 15, 2021 02:58
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The show started out with a cartoon documentary explaining the world to you idk. It was pretty on par
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Jul 15, 2021 02:59
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Lunatic Sledge posted:they explained it People don’t listen to poo poo they just have the tv playing while they’re on their phones and say the show sucks because they were scrolling through Facebook or somethingawful.com and miss the important poo poo because they only put their phones down for the action scenes.
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Jul 15, 2021 03:04
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a man with the cadence and enthusiasm of a children's TV show host sat us all down at his desk and explained, with puppets, half the plot points people have been absolutely bewildered about the last couple pages "what are the consequences of all this" "who even is this guy anyway" you think the show needed FEWER words? If anything it needed sing-a-long portions and a recap episode show's got a taste, like cilantro or convenience store hotdogs and I think you either hate it or it is your jam or you are trying too hard to "get it" e: to be clear I'm saying it's one of those things to give people the benefit of the doubt, because Occam's Razor suggests goons are just real dumb
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Jul 15, 2021 03:09
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Retrowave Joe posted:Then cast Eric Andre for Ben. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiCkzCJImDE
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Jul 15, 2021 03:11
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to be even clearer, I love Loki and convenience store hotdogs but not cilantro
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Jul 15, 2021 03:13
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BrianWilly posted:Like, I'm sure Doctor Who is actually a pretty good series or whatever, but everyone going on about how this feels just like Doctor Who just makes me think "Yeah I definitely don't want that." I didn't dislike my time with this show, but oh man what a trainwreck. Not bad or anything, just... you can really tell this was Kate Herron's first big project and she couldn't keep the MCU machinery from affecting the Loki/Lady Loki fan-fiction story she had in mind. Like the etchings are there but there's no meat on the bones. I guess that's what happens when you radically shift your show's focus every single episode without figuring out what it's really about beforehand: quote:It's Loki getting humbled by Time Cops so now he's gonna help them catch another Loki! I ain't reading 500+ posts are people saying "Oh it was supposed to be chaotic it's the Loki show  yet?"
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Jul 15, 2021 03:16
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GokuGoesSSJ3 posted:I wouldn't call the consequences vague, they were literally stated then shown to have happened. What consequences? We see a new statue at the exact same building, and some people lost their memories and that is the end of the whole show. This isn’t the Big Deal they promised, any interesting consequence will have to come in later properties or seasons. That is the definition of kicking the can down the road, and it’s bad for a finale.
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Jul 15, 2021 03:20
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It was okay. I don't really like the idea of multiverses in general, though. It diminishes characters' decisions if there are just a ton of other versions of them out there making different decisions. Also, the timeline stuff continues to not make sense. If people don't have any free will, why do timeline branches even happen? And why do "new" timelines pop up in the past? Hasn't the past already been written in one particular way? I like the aesthetics of the show as well as the characters, but the timeline stuff is just so fundamental to the plot that's it's difficult to overlook things that don't make sense. I think I would have preferred a show about Loki and Mobius in Doctor-Who-esque adventures through time. Not everything needs to be about the fate of the universe.
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Jul 15, 2021 03:21
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Time travel: it doesn’t matter
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Jul 15, 2021 03:23
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Ishamael posted:What consequences? We see a new statue at the exact same building, and some people lost their memories and that is the end of the whole show. This isn’t the Big Deal they promised, any interesting consequence will have to come in later properties or seasons. That is the definition of kicking the can down the road, and it’s bad for a finale. Mr. Exposition says (paraphrasing) you can kill me but then a worse me will just probably take my place. Then that's what happened. Even if you're not a comic fan who knows who the character is Loki says he believes he's not lying and I'd trust his word/judgement in that situation.
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Jul 15, 2021 03:23
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I think one criticism I'll make is that we already saw the universe chaotically branch out into a multiverse in the second episode, and the show just dropped it until it was time to do it again For Real This Time.
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Jul 15, 2021 03:23
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I don't care if the tone/content changed every episode. I don't care about the mechanics of timeline vs parallel universe. I don't care that the finale was mainly people talking across a desk or that it introduced a IT WAS X ALL ALONG character. If someone else does, that's perfectly fine and I can totally understand why they'd feel that way based on what I saw. But that finale loving slapped, Jonathan Majors ruled and stole the scenes, the show has been a fun as poo poo ride, and I could not be more pumped for season 2.
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Jul 15, 2021 03:26
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Did anyone else roll their eyes when they included the loving "love persevering" in the same montage as quotes from civil rights leaders? Of the 3 shows, FaTWS was the most consistent throughout. Not necessarily in a good way, but at least the finale for that was just merely mediocre (and a repeat of the themes from the prior ep) rather than outright bad like Loki's and Wandavision's. The MCU's third act problem continues unabated here as well.
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Jul 15, 2021 03:26
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Man, I thought the discussions in the last episode was great. The actor who played the villain did a fantastic job (in my opinion, of course).
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Jul 15, 2021 03:27
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Loki summed up the differences between himself and Sylvie as "You can't trust anyone, and I can't be trusted" , and the Sylvie part of it was apparent at the finale. Nice.mind the walrus posted:I guess that's what happens when you radically shift your show's focus every single episode without figuring out what it's really about beforehand: Wow, what a clusterfuck!
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Jul 15, 2021 03:29
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DorianGravy posted:It was okay. I don't really like the idea of multiverses in general, though. It diminishes characters' decisions if there are just a ton of other versions of them out there making different decisions. I mean you're asking questions about pretty much any multiverse theory based sci fi but one of what I assume are numerous answers is that quantum and/or cosmic particles may or may not cock about purely at random, or at least the closest thing to random we've ever seen. If you smoke two doobs and cliffnotes a bunch of wikipedia articles on string theory you start getting the idea that any of this random poo poo happening constantly can randomly affect all sorts of other things, from electronics to the human brain. poo poo man it can even help a speedrunner*, but if any of that poo poo operates outside of our basic idea of time or in six dimensions or whatever I ran out of space for tabs, then everything is being subtly influenced by random poo poo we never see or otherwise experience 100% of the time with entirely random timing and results. Time flows like a river but there's always something different in the water *https://www.thegamer.com/how-ionizing-particle-outer-space-helped-super-mario-64-speedrunner-save-time/
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Jul 15, 2021 03:30
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Gonna post this again and say that I think the implications of this image are being severely underappreciated. I'm sure at least a hundred posts of speculation could come of this single shot.
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Jul 15, 2021 03:32
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Chieves posted:Did anyone else roll their eyes when they included the loving "love persevering" in the same montage as quotes from civil rights leaders? They did it to aggravate the people who made a fuss about this line, which made me laugh.
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Jul 15, 2021 03:32
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FilthyImp posted:LOKI is recruited by a shadowy organization to hunt another version of himself, but things might not be as they seem. Wandavision is a checklist to introduce new versions of the title characters, the twins, Agatha Harkness, and Monica Rambeau into the MCU centered around the story of Wanda processing her trauma in an unhealthy way. Falcon and the Winter Soldier is a checklist to introduce USAgent, Battlestar, Val, Isiah and Eli Bradley, the Flag Smashers, and a new look for Falcon centered around the story of Sam processing that despite his imperfections and the complicated realities of the USA it's still worth picking up the shield and embracing the mantle of Captain America Loki is a checklist to introduce Lady Loki, Kid Loki, Classic Loki, the TVA, Renslayer, and Kang centered around the story of Loki... realizing that big bureaucracies led by shadow figures suck and also he really wants to hook up with his distaff counterpart. Yeah that's a clusterfuck. It's a clusterfuck with lots of fun points, and bang-on casting, but still a clusterfuck.
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Jul 15, 2021 03:35
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Klungar posted:They did it to aggravate the people who made a fuss about this line, which made me laugh. I don't believe this but I will admit that's what I thought of when I heard it and I also can't think of why else they would include it, because jesus lol
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Jul 15, 2021 03:36
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Chieves posted:Did anyone else roll their eyes when they included the loving "love persevering" in the same montage as quotes from civil rights leaders? If it had been the only Marvel line in a sea of civil rights leader quotes sure, but the bulk of the lines were from other Marvel properties, so it didn't really bother me.
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